WCML Pendolino does 130mph?

[royaloak]

Speed limit for a coach on the motorway is 70 but is restricted by the coach's speed limiter set at 62 (100kmh). Actually I got the maths wrong, a coach doing 80 will be at least 30% over the limit. It's the equivalent of a car doing 91 mph or a Pendolino doing 162 mph. Neither would be recommended.

If coaches are allowed 70mph then 80mph is 14% over the limit!

 

[jon0844]

RoyalOak's statement is proved by the fact that police pursuit drivers regularly drive at speeds of 100mph+ when chasing, yet it is safer that you or I doing it (which would then be inappropriate speed) as they are highly trained.

Not as well trained as they used to be, sadly. The police have an incredibly bad record on accidents, although that may have improved after new rules were introduced on when a police car can go into 'pursuit mode'.

Unfortunately this now means the police will back off from many chases. Helicopters are far more valuable, but it's not as if every force has loads of these to call upon - and they also cost a small fortune.

But, I certainly agree about inappropriate speed. Some of the safest roads I've ever driven on are German autobahns, where you can have people mixing at 150mph and 50mph without incident.

Here, I'd say the variance in speed is a dangerous one because people would pull out in front of a car doing 150mph when doing 50mph 'because they indicated'. However, the problem is more down to the motorist going slower than the one going faster in this case - but then that sounds like you're saying speeding is safer and you'll be shot to pieces.

I guess most people know what I mean though - especially if they drive a lot and can observe all these things first hand.

 

[royaloak]

Not as well trained as they used to be, sadly. The police have an incredibly bad record on accidents, although that may have improved after new rules were introduced on when a police car can go into 'pursuit mode'.

Do you think this bit above might be caused by the bit below, or similar?

Here, I'd say the variance in speed is a dangerous one because people would pull out in front of a car doing 150mph when doing 50mph 'because they indicated'. However, the problem is more down to the motorist going slower than the one going faster in this case - but then that sounds like you're saying speeding is safer and you'll be shot to pieces.

I guess most people know what I mean though - especially if they drive a lot and can observe all these things first hand.

Yes I do know what you mean and yes I agree, the general standard of driving in this country is atrocious.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Not as well trained as they used to be, sadly. The police have an incredibly bad record on accidents, although that may have improved after new rules were introduced on when a police car can go into 'pursuit mode'.

Unfortunately this now means the police will back off from many chases. Helicopters are far more valuable, but it's not as if every force has loads of these to call upon - and they also cost a small fortune.

That is true, and now a number of H&S criteria have to be fulfilled before the chase can start. Off the top of my head, it's weather conditions, road conditions, traffic conditions, appropriate car (T5 or Bmer) and trained officer.
Compare that to the US where most (if not all) cops are pursuit trained, most cars are appropriate and they don't seem to worry about the others!

 

[bluebottle]

If coaches are allowed 70mph then 80mph is 14% over the limit!

I did say the coach's speed limiter is set at 62. To exceed that speed is an offence.

 

[royaloak]

Speed limit for a coach on the motorway is 70 but is restricted by the coach's speed limiter set at 62 (100kmh). Actually I got the maths wrong, a coach doing 80 will be at least 30% over the limit. It's the equivalent of a car doing 91 mph or a Pendolino doing 162 mph. Neither would be recommended.

You said its 70 here!, if a coach does 70mph and the maximum speed allowed is 70 then how is that breaking the law. The governer can be set at any figure below the maximum!

 

[bluebottle]

You said its 70 here!, if a coach does 70mph and the maximum speed allowed is 70 then how is that breaking the law. The governer can be set at any figure below the maximum!

It's not a governor, it's a speed limiter fitted by law. It's the same paradox for trucks, the motorway limit is 60 yet they are limited to 56. The law being broken by traveling above that won't be the speed limit but the construction and use regulations. Hope that helps.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Perhaps I should say here for clarification following that lively discussion that I use the GPS because I like to know how fast I am going; I am not going to be bothered by a few extra mph showing up every now and again.

There is no way I would "rat" on anyone - and I wouldn't need to anyway; a signalling friend of mine tells me that anything going through the sections too quickly ( in some parts of the network ) will trigger an automated alert on the signalling system.

 

[Metroland]

It does yep, and on bits where it doesn't NR go out with radar traps.

 

[anonymous0101]

It's not a governor, it's a speed limiter fitted by law. It's the same paradox for trucks, the motorway limit is 60 yet they are limited to 56. The law being broken by traveling above that won't be the speed limit but the construction and use regulations. Hope that helps.

You are wrong. The speed limit for trucks on motorways is 60 and they are allowed to do this speed legally downhill, same as coaches can legally do 70 for the moment. By your arguement a bicycle fitted with an electric motor limiting to a powered speed of 15 is breaking the law if it goes faster downhill. Are you a coach driver?

 

[bluebottle]

You are wrong. The speed limit for trucks on motorways is 60 and they are allowed to do this speed legally downhill, same as coaches can legally do 70 for the moment. By your arguement a bicycle fitted with an electric motor limiting to a powered speed of 15 is breaking the law if it goes faster downhill. Are you a coach driver?

Ok, in that case you are correct. The point that I was trying to make is that a coach doing 80 where its maximum permitted speed is 70 is not exactly safe. If you take a 14% overspeed to a Pendolino it would be traveling at nearly 143 mph. That's quite a bit different to a max of 130 if it ever happened. Probably enough off topic I think.

 

[tornado]

It's up to it's maximum now pretty much, the curves on the WCML go all over the place, especially on the northern stretch. Apart from the odd remodelling (such as Stafford and Crewe) you won't get much more out of it, the laws of physics kick in.

The other problem is very mixed speeds (high speed trains, mixing with commuter traffic, mixing with freight) isn't an especially good use of capacity. There's not much can be done there either without some serious segregation of traffic - which is exactly why a new high speed line is proposed.

So often upgrades to classic lines are proposed by many people on this forum and commentators, without a real appreciation of the limits of what can be done.

What about Alstom's 4th gen "New Pendolino" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_600) which can reach 155mph. The Italians run these on classic mixed traffic lines (Frecciargento), and have separate 186mph high speed trains (Frecciarossa) for their HS lines. Will we ever see this introduced on the WCML? Are the four new 11-car sets on order identical spec to the existing class 390s?

Also, see http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/elibrary/technical/products/_files/file_31301_28343.pdf

 

[TDK]

You are wrong. The speed limit for trucks on motorways is 60 and they are allowed to do this speed legally downhill, same as coaches can legally do 70 for the moment. By your arguement a bicycle fitted with an electric motor limiting to a powered speed of 15 is breaking the law if it goes faster downhill. Are you a coach driver?

Irish trucks do not have a 56mph limiter and ASFAIK they can do 70mph, however this is a tad off topic, the importance of linespeed is apparent due to the restriction in place, i.e. Curves, signal sighting and also automatic level crossings, there is a tolerance built into the line speeds so if a driver is mistakingly 5mph over there will not be a catastrophic accident, if a driver is over the speed by a certain amount approaching a PSR, buffers or a red signal there are safety measures in place such as TPWS & ATP on some routes so the railway is a very safe method of travel.

 

[90019]

Irish trucks do not have a 56mph limiter and ASFAIK they can do 70mph

And at least some trucks here have switches to turn the limiters off.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I don't think it would be financially sound to do so for the sake of 8 or 9 minutes off a 127 minute journey. The biggest gains will come from higher top speeds, which is where HS2 is meant to come in to play.

The biggest time savings are from increasing lower line speeds rather than higher line speeds.

On a mile of track, with line speed raised by 20mph from 60mph to 80mph, you save 15 seconds.

On a mile of track, with line speed raised by 20mph from 100mph to 120mph, you save 6 seconds.

You get your big time savings from raising line speeds in and out of stations; approaches to junction and curves.

 

[Metroland]

What about Alstom's 4th gen "New Pendolino" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_600) which can reach 155mph. The Italians run these on classic mixed traffic lines (Frecciargento), and have separate 186mph high speed trains (Frecciarossa) for their HS lines. Will we ever see this introduced on the WCML? Are the four new 11-car sets on order identical spec to the existing class 390s?

Also, see http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/elibrary/technical/products/_files/file_31301_28343.pdf

We can build trains that go 300mph, that's not the issue, the track alignment, traffic mix, and signalling is. Only new lines will see substantial speed increases in the UK.

 

[anonymous0101]

Just out of interest people do you think the average person would notice if their Eurostar train to Paris only did 200 kph (125 mph) instead of 300 kph (186 mph)?

 

[jon0844]

Just out of interest people do you think the average person would notice if their Eurostar train to Paris only did 200 kph (125 mph) instead of 300 kph (186 mph)?

Yes, because 300kph is a LOT faster than 200kph.

I can tell the difference between a train doing 100kph and 160kph and I don't think I'm anything but average.

 

[anonymous0101]

Yes, because 300kph is a LOT faster than 200kph.

I can tell the difference between a train doing 100kph and 160kph and I don't think I'm anything but average.

Ah but you are a train enthusiast. I'm thinking of the average person like a family on their way to Eurodisney with screaming kids lol

 

[ukrob]

Just out of interest people do you think the average person would notice if their Eurostar train to Paris only did 200 kph (125 mph) instead of 300 kph (186 mph)?

Yes I do. And having used a Disney service in the past which you have mentioned, people have commented on it being so much faster. It is a huge difference looking out the window at 125mph to 186mph.

 

[dk1]

Yes I do. And having used a Disney service in the past which you have mentioned, people have commented on it being so much faster. It is a huge difference looking out the window at 125mph to 186mph.

Me too!!

It's part of the holiday to know you are crossing land at nearly 200mph leaving those almost stationary coaches behind on the motorway.

 

[The Planner]

The biggest time savings are from increasing lower line speeds rather than higher line speeds.

On a mile of track, with line speed raised by 20mph from 60mph to 80mph, you save 15 seconds.

On a mile of track, with line speed raised by 20mph from 100mph to 120mph, you save 6 seconds.

You get your big time savings from raising line speeds in and out of stations; approaches to junction and curves.

The man talks sense....you also need to consider whether it is actually drivable. Its all very well raising a track speed to 125mph but a tad pointless if you run 100mph stock over it....

 

[jon0844]

Ah but you are a train enthusiast. I'm thinking of the average person like a family on their way to Eurodisney with screaming kids lol

I think that driving fast cars, including driving on the German autobahns has probably got more to do with me understanding the differences in speed. However, I do think most people will think 300kph is faster than anything else they're used to.

I also think people can tell the differences at lower speeds too, like a slow all-station train running around 50-60mph and a fast train doing 100mph. Not much of a difference, but I am convinced Joe Public can tell.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I now usually get a 313 that stops all stations from Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate, and noting the train rarely gets much above 50mph, I was wondering what improvements could be made by a new train (378?) that had better acceleration at the expense of top speed - which is 75mph on the slow lines anyway.

Does anyone know how much time could be shaved off the timetable from WGC (or Hertford North/Watton at Stone) to London if the trains could get away faster - and approach faster before stopping?

 

[The Planner]

½ minute between stations at best Id have thought, you would be pushed to get a minute. All very well saving the time, its being able to take advantage of it, you may well end up padding the train out later on to get a slot at the terminal.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes to the Eurostar question - even if you are not looking out of the window the "feel" is totally different ( and a lot more fun ) once the train is going faster than about 150mph.

The noise is distinctively different as well.

So even if I was not "into" railways, I would certainly notice the difference.

 

[jon0844]

½ minute between stations at best Id have thought, you would be pushed to get a minute. All very well saving the time, its being able to take advantage of it, you may well end up padding the train out later on to get a slot at the terminal.

If you got 30 seconds per station, you'd be talking about shaving off 6-7 minutes - which is pretty significant!

Surely the timetables would be adjusted accordingly, so the train doesn't arrive early and sit outside Moorgate or King's Cross for 10 minutes!

 

[Lampshade]

What about Alstom's 4th gen "New Pendolino" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_600) which can reach 155mph. The Italians run these on classic mixed traffic lines (Frecciargento), and have separate 186mph high speed trains (Frecciarossa) for their HS lines. Will we ever see this introduced on the WCML? Are the four new 11-car sets on order identical spec to the existing class 390s?

Also, see http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/elibrary/technical/products/_files/file_31301_28343.pdf

Urgh, Alstom in 2010 = British Rail in 1972 hock:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If you are gaining 30 seconds per station that way, then you should be able to move all the suburbans through the Welwyn bottleneck at least a minute quicker than at present; would the cumulative effect of this be enough to allow one extra path per hour on the ECML, I wonder?

 

[jon0844]

If London Overground takes over and replaces the 313s with 378s or something similar, they'll only go as far as Welwyn Garden City (or Stevenage via Hertford Loop) so I doubt they'll make much difference beyond there (namely the 2-track stretch by Welwyn North).

Of course, they'd surely help when the semi-fast services use the slow lines too. It might allow better timings of paths somehow, as I'm sure during peak times there are still gaps.

 

[anonymous0101]

The 378s not only accelerate better than 313s but also have much better brakes. I think journeys could be sped up significantly!