CarterUSM
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I knew the small posts on the motorway measured kilometres but no idea that new rail lines were also measured and posted in metric! Any examples?
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WCML Pendolino does 130mph?
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The Planner
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Cambrian goes metric when ERTMS is switched on.
No it isnt.. its placed at 100yds point, usually converted up to the nearest metre - so 100 yds would be 92 metres from the obstruction.
bluebottle
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Heathrow Branch.
You can set a download to search for any incidences over a certain speed so you can search 2 weeks of data to show you say 128mph this will be displayed on the laptop in front of you
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Why would a train spotter want to use a GPS on board a train to monitor the drivers speed, I would be personally ******ed off if some train spotter was monitoring my driving with a GPS however I don't over speed as the trains I drive are timed correctly to arrive on time if you are doing the correct line speed, what would you say if a car spotter speed gunned you on the motorway and then put you registration number up on an open forum because this is what you are doing! If you drove a train you would realise that sometimes it is more fuelefficiant to go over the speed by 1 or 2mph that is quite legal as you will loose 5mph on an up gradient even when applying full power at the gradient start, but of course all you train spottersknow this as you have BVE :roll:
thefab444
Established Member
Seriously rare... I actually fully agree with you.
Probably, when the last of the Imperial generation go to a better place/treated as heros etc. etc., we will fully convert to Metric, given that children are schooled in Metric now.
I imagine it'd be the same if we converted to right hand drive, all the cars would be done fine, but the roadsigns would be left on the wrong side of the road.
87015
Established Member
Quite hard to time a train if you are sitting a platform spotting numbers I'd have though.
I presume you don't approve of the Railway Performance Society either?
anonymous0101
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The Railway Performance Society does not approve of speeding. Some of its members are drivers.
87015
Established Member
It is interested in the performance of trains mainly though time/speed logs, which TDK was suggesting shouldn't be done.
I bow to your superior knowledge as an engineer, but the traffic signs manual works only in metres; page 73 shows a 1 mile sign as placed 1600m from the obstruction, and a 200yds sign 200m from the obstruction.
Silly quote cosidering I am a driver! I may was a bit generic about my description of train spotters so I willwiden it, Spotters, Enthusiasts and bashers! all of which I am loosing patience with
I'm going to stick with Imperial for as long as possible. To me, forcing Britain to switch to Metric (for which read Napoleonic, Mr Bonaparte forced the French Empire to convert to it) is an attack on our culture. Just to **** people off, I might drive to the Napoleonic speed limits in mph.
There are some practical reasons as well. Apart from the fact that you can't divide a metre by 3 sensibly, all British steam locomotives were built with Imperial measurements. All parts are in Imperial. Therefore, unless you want to have to re-machine every rivet and bearing during a restoration project, you need to have a source of parts in the proper measurements. This might end up killing steam for good if restoration costs go through the roof because of Napoleonic measurements.
Please don't have a go at me for going off topic.
No it shouldn't be done by enthusiasts but through the correct channels that I totally agree with,there are accurate tools that monitor the speed of trans, a lot more accurate than GPS or enthusiasts/spotters/bashers with a stop watch so it should be left to these accurate systems already in place not enthusiasts who do not know the line speeds at an exact location for a whole journey!
The Planner
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What purpose do the Performance Society actually have ?? Ive never known anything come about from what they do or infact any dealings with them or stemmed from what they do unless its all very clandestine.
anonymous0101
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railperf.org.uk is their website
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Firstly, I only mentioned the time of the service I was recording, not the day. And I have seen this happen on several prior services at various times/days of the week.
Secondly, it is perfectly legal to own and use a GPS recording device in this country. The TOCs have far more accurate and verifiable ways of measuring train speeds so they are not going to be at all interested in something posted here.
If I want to know line speeds at any point on the WCML I can download the 200MB pdf from Network Rail
If you are unhappy with people using a publicly available satellite system (GPS) on a public railway then maybe you should try and get GPS banned!
The Rail Performance Society take the opposite view to you, see http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/gps-technology
I don't care what people do but I cannot see what benefit there is in it apart from quoting on a forum that the said train was doing 130mph! I feel that as I quoted no business of train spotter to record and publish the speed of trains on a forum or anywhere else if you and other people find it interesting to record the speed of a train it's your business but keep it your business that's all I am saying. GPS is a good tool for measuring speed accurately and the stock I drive is GPS equipped how ever this specialist equipment installed for the purpose of positioning and location of engines for logistical purposes.
You either did not read my post correctly or are trying to manipulate what I have said, I do not care if GPS is used but I do care if the data gatherd is posted publically,
It is different looking at line speeds from a map than know their location geographically, you would understand what I meant unless you were a train driver.
If you posted that a train was travelling at 90mph on an 80mph length of track and a DSM see this, ertain DSM's would request that train to be downloaded, fair enough the driver should not be 10mph over the line speed but it is not you place or job to publish this information, ok a cenario, you are travelling on a motorway, you are doing 70mph and a coach overtakes you at 80mph, what do you do? Nothing, however maybe you should install a video camera in you car so you could get evidence to publish this somewhere? I think not and I rate both scenarios the same, sorry if you don't like what I have to say but I can bet you that 99% of drivers and most other railway workers would be with me on this one.
I read your link on the RPS and it does not quote the use of handheld GPS for measuring the speed of trains. It does however mention GPS as an option to use for monitoring, different I would say.
anonymous0101
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Good post TDK.
The title of this thread is "WCML Pendolino does 130mph? [question mark]". This is the peak of what my GPS recorded. My intent was to discuss a) the accuracies of my data b) the current speed bottlenecks on the WCML
From the discussion here it seems that speeds of 125-128 mph are commonplace on the WCML and ECML. On the WCML 129, 130 mph are more unlikely, and probably show that my particular GPS is accurate to +/- 1-2mph.
If the above speeds are permitted by NR e.g. to ascend a gradient as you mentioned, then you should have no problem with me posting them. If 128mph is a grave threat to railway safety, then equally you shouldn't have a problem as the practice should be stopped immediately. (Incidentally a coach at 80mph is dangerous, and most conscientious drivers would report it!)
The RPS say "In the early days, RPS members started using handheld GPS receivers such as the Garmin GPS 12 to verify a trains speed. Today, there are a number of different devices that allow detailed recording of acceleration, braking and can compile an automated log of the journey"
From the discussion here it seems that speeds of 125-128 mph are commonplace on the WCML and ECML. On the WCML 129, 130 mph are more unlikely, and probably show that my particular GPS is accurate to +/- 1-2mph.
If the above speeds are permitted by NR e.g. to ascend a gradient as you mentioned, then you should have no problem with me posting them. If 128mph is a grave threat to railway safety, then equally you shouldn't have a problem as the practice should be stopped immediately. (Incidentally a coach at 80mph is dangerous, and most conscientious drivers would report it!)
The RPS say "In the early days, RPS members started using handheld GPS receivers such as the Garmin GPS 12 to verify a trains speed. Today, there are a number of different devices that allow detailed recording of acceleration, braking and can compile an automated log of the journey"
anonymous0101
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So not only are you an 'expert' on trains but coaches as well? Are you a coach driver?
If a train doing 130mph, or indeed more as noted on the ECML, and it was considered dangerous then the people exposing this should actually be considered heroes if it prevented a nasty accident.
Why should anyone stay silent? Would you expect a journalist to keep quiet if they were about to expose drivers for breaking the law on something?
As you might say to those speed in a car, if you don't want to get caught, don't speed!
Personally, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill TDK. It is highly unlikely anyone will be checking the 'black box' of any train with such vague information. The time I recorded my Mallard doing almost 140mph was so long ago, that data simply won't be there.
Now if it was there because drivers were doing this only last week, then what has that got to do with me or anyone else?
Why should anyone stay silent? Would you expect a journalist to keep quiet if they were about to expose drivers for breaking the law on something?
As you might say to those speed in a car, if you don't want to get caught, don't speed!
Personally, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill TDK. It is highly unlikely anyone will be checking the 'black box' of any train with such vague information. The time I recorded my Mallard doing almost 140mph was so long ago, that data simply won't be there.
Now if it was there because drivers were doing this only last week, then what has that got to do with me or anyone else?
bluebottle
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A coach doing 80 is at least 25% over the speed limit, it doesn't take an expert to realise that that's not entirely safe.
royaloak
Established Member
Well I have had a Leyland Olympian with the speedo right round to the stop (about 105mph) and it didnt jump up and bite me!
Speeding itself is not dangerous, inapropriate speed is. There are times when doing the speed limit would be dangerous AND stupid (snow/ ice/ fog etc), but that wouldnt be breaking the law so people dont care, after all that is what insurance is for isnt it :roll:. Which brings us back to dangerous roads (or is that another thread
)
Oh I managed to get a 455 up to 75mph last week
(downhill 
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Why, what is the maximum speed for a coach then? cars do it all the time and a coach driver will be more highly trained and concentrating more than your average rep!
Speeding itself is not dangerous, inapropriate speed is. There are times when doing the speed limit would be dangerous AND stupid (snow/ ice/ fog etc), but that wouldnt be breaking the law so people dont care, after all that is what insurance is for isnt it :roll:. Which brings us back to dangerous roads (or is that another thread
)Oh I managed to get a 455 up to 75mph last week
(downhill )--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why, what is the maximum speed for a coach then? cars do it all the time and a coach driver will be more highly trained and concentrating more than your average rep!
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devon_metro
Established Member
Completely agreed, which is why I get annoyed in my car when approaching a hill and I am following somebody who is sticking to 30 by the book, I then have to accelerate more than I would have had I allowed myself a run up (so to speak).
Driving to the speed limits at all times is hardly very fuel efficient, its simple physics really. Its a shame there are some people out there who don't understand this and claim that you are instantly reckless when speeding slightly. (rant over
)Just wondered if we could steer this thread back to the WCML itself 
Imagine the following scenario: HS2 is cancelled/takes 20 yrs to build, the best possible signalling is installed on the existing WCML (in-cab etc.), we obtain rolling stock capable of >200mph service speeds, extremely long turnouts at junctions.
What then would be the upper limit for speeds on the line? Is there a point beyond which banking curves and tilting the train becomes impractical? Are there other factors that come into play?
Imagine the following scenario: HS2 is cancelled/takes 20 yrs to build, the best possible signalling is installed on the existing WCML (in-cab etc.), we obtain rolling stock capable of >200mph service speeds, extremely long turnouts at junctions.
What then would be the upper limit for speeds on the line? Is there a point beyond which banking curves and tilting the train becomes impractical? Are there other factors that come into play?
tbtc
Veteran Member
Why the obsession with top speed (when so much of the network is limited to much slower speeds)? Why spend millions more to chop another sixty seconds off the Manchester - London journey time?
As for GPS, I honestly don't care how the train has performed as long as it gets to the next station on time - I know I seem to be in a minority
As for GPS, I honestly don't care how the train has performed as long as it gets to the next station on time - I know I seem to be in a minority
Just wondered if we could steer this thread back to the WCML itself
Imagine the following scenario: HS2 is cancelled/takes 20 yrs to build, the best possible signalling is installed on the existing WCML (in-cab etc.), we obtain rolling stock capable of >200mph service speeds, extremely long turnouts at junctions.
What then would be the upper limit for speeds on the line? Is there a point beyond which banking curves and tilting the train becomes impractical? Are there other factors that come into play?
It's up to it's maximum now pretty much, the curves on the WCML go all over the place, especially on the northern stretch. Apart from the odd remodelling (such as Stafford and Crewe) you won't get much more out of it, the laws of physics kick in.
The other problem is very mixed speeds (high speed trains, mixing with commuter traffic, mixing with freight) isn't an especially good use of capacity. There's not much can be done there either without some serious segregation of traffic - which is exactly why a new high speed line is proposed.
So often upgrades to classic lines are proposed by many people on this forum and commentators, without a real appreciation of the limits of what can be done.
bluebottle
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Speed limit for a coach on the motorway is 70 but is restricted by the coach's speed limiter set at 62 (100kmh). Actually I got the maths wrong, a coach doing 80 will be at least 30% over the limit. It's the equivalent of a car doing 91 mph or a Pendolino doing 162 mph. Neither would be recommended.
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ralphchadkirk
Established Member
RoyalOak's statement is proved by the fact that police pursuit drivers regularly drive at speeds of 100mph+ when chasing, yet it is safer that you or I doing it (which would then be inappropriate speed) as they are highly trained.
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