WCML Pendolino does 130mph?

[ChrisCooper]

The Colton Junction at the north end of the Selby diversion is built to allow 125mph from both the ECML and the lines from Leeds.

On the subject of Pendolino acceleration, they might do 0-60 in 60 seconds, but they won't be accelerating at anything like the same rate by the time they get to 125mph.

 

[Edvid]

I've copied a picture of the turnouts from Multimap. There's another at Trent Valley Jn as well now (Down Fast -> Down Coventry).

 

[mrcheek]

GPS cannot be used to accurately record the speed of trains. You get errors when it "moves" between satalites, or loses contact with one, and recalculates its position relative to the others it is in contact with.

There are people employed to monitor how trains are being driven. Can we leave it to them please?

people are employed to deal with all areas relating to trains and railways. shall we "leave it to them please", and therefore just shut down the entire forum? ****.

 

[CosherB]

Queensville curve south of Stafford is a beast, I'd hate to see the difference between wear on the outer rails which get a good flange beating on the fasts. Colwich Jcn is built with the priority route in geographical terms being from Stafford. The line from Stone has to curve severely in order to join on. But then that should be the priority route to go direct through to Glasgow.

It's interesting that traditionally, the fast route London to Manchester was via Crewe (the steam era expresses, then the Manchester Pullman in electrified times, the fastest timing in its day). In Virgin days, via Stoke seems to be premier route (2 out of 3 Pendos per hour), despite its more curvy alignment (especially since Crewe - Sandbach has been much improved in recent years - that used to be a crawl!). That may be because the Stoke line serves Macclesfield and Stoke, whereas the Crewe is served by scottish and Liverpool services.

But probably the biggest market for the Manchester Pullman was at its Wilmslow stop, in the heart of Cheshire 'stockbroker belt' land.

 

[daikilo]

I recently took the 1.35pm Virgin Pendolino from Manchester to Euston on the WCML. It was timetabled at 2 hrs 7 mins calling at Stockport, Macc., and Stoke. But it actually pulled into Euston in 2 hrs, i.e. 7 mins early. I have noticed this happening a few times this year. This got me thinking that it shouldn't be that difficult to get a regular daytime service of just under 2 hours - which would be great for publicity. Surely if a few bottlenecks were removed this could be possible?
Also, you can see the linespeed profile recorded on my gps (attached). When does the speed limiter kick in because the train seemed to touch 130mph for short periods?!

Many years ago I kept records of every train on which I travelled. Speeds of HSTs on the WR and certain NE were impressive. I began to become exited when we were obviously above 135mph which I recognised by ear, even with Mk3 coaches and long-welded rail. As I recall, I recorded at or above 140mph several times at suitable locations. Those were the days. Thanks team.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Good evening everyone - this is my first post on this forum.

May I say I can get my Garmin Foretrex 101 ( a wrist worn GPS unit aimed at the sports market ) to reliably hold a full 3D GPS signal on a 390 for very long stretches provided I am in the vestibles and not the cabin parts of the carriage. I can't get a signal at all in the cabins.

This does show a very constant 123 - 125mph for many miles with no spiking either upwards or downwards. Of course, I lose the signal at certain locations ( such as Kilsby tunnel ) but I can usually recover the signal in seconds once back out of the tunnel.

When it does go above an indicated 125mph, it is usually a gradual creep and then only to 126 / 127 mph; occasionally 128mph - which I point out is in any case the upper limit of the 3mph allowance ( speed limiter or not! ) and I have only twice seen it touch 129mph, and then only very briefly - suggesting that:

1) The Garmin does pick up the signal reliably - I have seen it indicating it has locked onto as many as six satellites at a time; it only needs 3 for a 3D fix and will record smoothly with 2; below that it blanks the display.

2) The speed limiters do indeed cut in at the 129mph someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[jrhilton]

GPS cannot be used to accurately record the speed of trains. You get errors when it "moves" between satalites, or loses contact with one, and recalculates its position relative to the others it is in contact with.

There are people employed to monitor how trains are being driven. Can we leave it to them please?

Very true, plus calculating the speed is an added on feature, and was not intended to be done when GPS was invented, the accuracy simply isn't there for continuous high frequency speed readings, hence the need for averaging over time.

A unit works it out by averaging, but when travelling at 100+mph each reading will be out by a few meters at best due to the nature of GPS, so speed blips are happening but the software is averaging them out to give you a steady reading, but sometimes blips still get through. Also for simplicity many assume you are travelling in a straight line and not going up or down a hill.

 

[tornado]

A unit works it out by averaging, but when travelling at 100+mph each reading will be out by a few meters at best due to the nature of GPS, so speed blips are happening but the software is averaging them out to give you a steady reading, but sometimes blips still get through.

This may be true but the severity of this effect e.g. is it +/-1mph or +/-5mph etc. will depend on the instrument (mine does take into account elevation as well). The fact is that any type of cruise-control cannot respond instantly. On the HS1 Javelins the limiter is set at +7kph, with up to 3kph overspeed occurring normally. So +4mph (~6kph) seems reasonable for a Pendolino.

Also, GPS is good at giving a general idea of what sections a train has to slow down in. "Troughs" in my data matched nicely with various jns on the WCML.

Unless they start installing in-carriage speed displays like DeutschBahn's ICE3 then GPS is all us passengers have to go by!

 

[starrymarkb]

Consumer GPS is only accurate to about 3m or so, for enhanced accuracy you need the commercial signal (accurate to cm) however that costs £££

 

[anonymous0101]

This may be true but the severity of this effect e.g. is it +/-1mph or +/-5mph etc. will depend on the instrument (mine does take into account elevation as well). The fact is that any type of cruise-control cannot respond instantly. On the HS1 Javelins the limiter is set at +7kph, with up to 3kph overspeed occurring normally. So +4mph (~6kph) seems reasonable for a Pendolino.

Also, GPS is good at giving a general idea of what sections a train has to slow down in. "Troughs" in my data matched nicely with various jns on the WCML.

Unless they start installing in-carriage speed displays like DeutschBahn's ICE3 then GPS is all us passengers have to go by!

May i ask, how you know what the 'limiter' for a Javelin is set at? What do you mean by limiter anyway?

 

[MCR247]

Limits how fast the train can go

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Good evening everyone - this is my first post on this forum.

May I say I can get my Garmin Foretrex 101 ( a wrist worn GPS unit aimed at the sports market ) to reliably hold a full 3D GPS signal on a 390 for very long stretches provided I am in the vestibles and not the cabin parts of the carriage. I can't get a signal at all in the cabins.

This does show a very constant 123 - 125mph for many miles with no spiking either upwards or downwards. Of course, I lose the signal at certain locations ( such as Kilsby tunnel ) but I can usually recover the signal in seconds once back out of the tunnel.

When it does go above an indicated 125mph, it is usually a gradual creep and then only to 126 / 127 mph; occasionally 128mph - which I point out is in any case the upper limit of the 3mph allowance ( speed limiter or not! ) and I have only twice seen it touch 129mph, and then only very briefly - suggesting that:

1) The Garmin does pick up the signal reliably - I have seen it indicating it has locked onto as many as six satellites at a time; it only needs 3 for a 3D fix and will record smoothly with 2; below that it blanks the display.

2) The speed limiters do indeed cut in at the 129mph someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

Welcome to the forums Peter!

If you don't mind my saying, that's an excellent first post!

 

[87015]

Limits how fast the train can go

Do they actually limit the speed (ie apply the brakes) or just stop power being applied?

 

[anonymous0101]

Pendolino's are fitted with TASS, Tilt Authorisation Speed Supervision. An emergency brake application will result if speed exceeds the permitted by 6 mph. It is not a Speed Limiter. The only reason i can think of for abnormally high speeds is an underreading speedometer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Pendolino's are fitted with TASS, Tilt Authorisation Speed Supervision. An emergency brake application will result if speed exceeds the permitted by 6 mph. It is not a Speed Limiter. The only reason i can think of for abnormally high speeds is an underreading speedometer.

 

[jon0844]

It's interesting that a GPS receiver can happily show the correct speed when it's within the speed limit on the track, but when people point out that a train is going over it - they start to argue about inaccuracies!!

GPS isn't that selective. If lots of people are seeing a higher speed in the same areas (such as a Mallard on the ECML beyond Peterborough) then the chances are there's some truth in it. Especially if the data is showing everything else as normal.

Nobody counts the odd spike, but that usually results in impossible speeds being shown. Again, any modern GPS receiver and semi-decent software will sort those out pretty effectively.

Nobody is mentioning exact services to get anyone into any trouble. If there was ever going to be a speed check, this thread wouldn't have anything to do with it anyway.

 

[royaloak]

Any DSM with a point to make would simple start looking at that timing point on any download he does.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Chris the ref - thank you for that comment.

Tornado - the 390s and the 220/221/222 family do actually have a speed display built in, but they never seem to use it! When the 390s were being introduced they did display the speed, but only occasionally - like once every 12 minutes or so ( yes - I timed the appearances! ).

Why they don't use it now I am not quite sure; I have been given several different reasons ranging from the crews not liking them because it does display the odd 1mph or so overspeed to the TOCs banning it because they don't want the passengers to realise just how little of the journey is actually made at full speed because they will clamour for reduced journey times!

Tornado / Starry Mark - the DfT have told me that when the Galileo system is up and running in about 2012 or so, it will be much better than GPS - the signals will be a lot stronger and will be recevable anywhere in a carriage regardless of window coatings - it will even work indoors. With that kind of signal strength, the accuracy of a speed reading from it will be considerably greater than with GPS as you would almost certainly have every visible satellite locked on at once instead of typically just three or four of them.

Incidentally, Garmin quote an accuracy of +/- 1% for the speed reading on the Foretrex 101.


Captain Speaking - that is such a distinctive user ID that I have to ask are you the same Captain Speaking as I know elsewhere? The Concorde forum to be precise?

 

[A60K]

The only reason i can think of for abnormally high speeds is an underreading speedometer.

I believe wheel wear will have some effect on speed possible - not sure exactly how much though.

 

[jon0844]

I can certainly see why a TOC wouldn't want to show what speed a train was going at. Imagine all those people paying top dollar for HS1 and seeing 125mph or less!! At least one or two of the commuters might be old enough to remember the BR days and trains that could do 125mph back then!!

 

[MCR247]

HS1 is timed at 126mph, not that it makes a difference, they'l just have chose 126 so they can say its still faster

 

[anonymous0101]

I ride HS1 frequently. Peak train speeds are never that low and contrary to what tornado claims, they never exceed 225 kph either.

 

[Geezertronic]

...they never exceed 225 kph either.

It always confuses me why someone quotes the speed in kph when we are in an mph country...

 

[Chafford1]

It always confuses me why someone quotes the speed in kph when we are in an mph country...

200 km/h = 124 mph

225 km/h = 140 mph


Railway Magazine timed the 395s at 230 km/h 143mph on the initial press runs last summer, which coincidentally is the HS1 line limit east of Ebsfleet.

 

[anonymous0101]

It always confuses me why someone quotes the speed in kph when we are in an mph country...

HS1 speed limits are expressed in kph. The signalling system is French and therefore uses kph.

 

[jon0844]

It always confuses me why someone quotes the speed in kph when we are in an mph country...

We went metric a long time ago. I have no problem in having kph quoted, but it would be a courtesy to mention MPH too - given that we're still 'hanging on' to this as a speed measurement.

 

[CarterUSM]

I was under the impression that it had been agreed in the eighties that the mile and the pint were staying with us.

 

[Lampshade]

I was under the impression that it had been agreed in the eighties that the mile and the pint were staying with us.

And the EU gave up on trying to make us move fully to grams/kg, allowing things to be sold in lbs and ounces

 

[jon0844]

I was under the impression that it had been agreed in the eighties that the mile and the pint were staying with us.

Aren't they simply extensions/delays? I'm sure we will change one day.

 

[tornado]

I ride HS1 frequently. Peak train speeds are never that low and contrary to what tornado claims, they never exceed 225 kph either.

see this link for info on the top speed of the Javelins http://leytr.blogspot.com/2010/04/at-sharp-end-part-2.html

Nobody is mentioning exact services to get anyone into any trouble. If there was ever going to be a speed check, this thread wouldn't have anything to do with it anyway.

I've noticed Pendolinos arriving early, and recorded them nudging above 125mph on many occasions on the Man-Eus route since last year. If all drivers are doing this then I'm sure its perfectly legit behaviour!

The ATP system does the following "Audible warning is given if driver exceeds speed by 3mph, and if speed limit is exceeded by 6mph, full service brake will be applied" I'm not sure if this is the system on the 390s? but it appears 125-128mph is acceptable on high speed sections.

 

[Mojo]

I was under the impression that it had been agreed in the eighties that the mile and the pint were staying with us.

No, since the 1960s the official system of measurement in this country have been in metric. New roads and railways are measured in km (you may notice the small posts, and recently the larger posts alongside Motorways display distances in km), although there may be some backwards recognition for existing routes (eg. ECML Selby diversion).

Even signs on roads that are supposedly in imperial are not, the guidance for road signs states that a 100 yard sign must be placed 100 metres from the obstruction, and one mile is 1,600 metres.

OS maps started to be defined in metric since 1970 and in 1979 the metrification board (to change the UK to metric) was abolished and we've been left with this mess ever since.

It's about time this country gets a move on and completes the transition to stop people getting ripped off and confused with these stupid random units.