WCML Pendolino does 130mph?

[tornado]

I recently took the 1.35pm Virgin Pendolino from Manchester to Euston on the WCML. It was timetabled at 2 hrs 7 mins calling at Stockport, Macc., and Stoke. But it actually pulled into Euston in 2 hrs, i.e. 7 mins early. I have noticed this happening a few times this year. This got me thinking that it shouldn't be that difficult to get a regular daytime service of just under 2 hours - which would be great for publicity. Surely if a few bottlenecks were removed this could be possible?
Also, you can see the linespeed profile recorded on my gps (attached). When does the speed limiter kick in because the train seemed to touch 130mph for short periods?!

 

[TDK]

I recently took the 1.35pm Virgin Pendolino from Manchester to Euston on the WCML. It was timetabled at 2 hrs 7 mins calling at Stockport, Macc., and Stoke. But it actually pulled into Euston in 2 hrs, i.e. 7 mins early. I have noticed this happening a few times this year. This got me thinking that it shouldn't be that difficult to get a regular daytime service of just under 2 hours - which would be great for publicity. Surely if a few bottlenecks were removed this could be possible?
Also, you can see the linespeed profile recorded on my gps (attached). When does the speed limiter kick in because the train seemed to touch 130mph for short periods?!

Why post this stuff with timings of the trains? The pendo's have a limit of 125 and have a cruise control as such, maybe your GPS is reading wrong!!! Maybe PM Rouge Trooper he will know the details of the limiter on a pendo..

 

[tornado]

Maybe my GPS is wrong, but I'm guessing the cruise control can't react instantly to overspeeding. Anyway - my main question was whether it would be possible to regularly run trains at <2hrs with minor track upgrades?

 

[mumrar]

I don't think it would be financially sound to do so for the sake of 8 or 9 minutes off a 127 minute journey. The biggest gains will come from higher top speeds, which is where HS2 is meant to come in to play.

 

[Metroland]

Maybe my GPS is wrong, but I'm guessing the cruise control can't react instantly to overspeeding. Anyway - my main question was whether it would be possible to regularly run trains at <2hrs with minor track upgrades?

ERMTS level 2 required

 

[tornado]

The track distance from Manchester-London is 184 miles, and current average speed is ~90mph. If all the bottlenecks were removed then theoretically you could do a (non-stop) journey in as little as 1hr30min @125mph. I thought ERTMS level 2 was only needed for >125mph?

 

[anonymous0101]

ERMTS level 2 required

GPS signals are not reliable on a pendolino due to some sort of reflective coating on the windows.

Did the train at any point average 130 between two stations?

 

[jopsuk]

Never mind between two stations- even over a reasonable distance (such as 500m, 1km, or a mile) would be better- GPS speed data is prone to "spikes" as well as troughs.

 

[The Planner]

Id have thought the computers on the train would have intervened about 127-128mph. You could get 2 hours now if it wasnt for the need of engineering allowances in schedules.

 

[Donny Dave]

Going by what I've read about the publicity run between Glasgow and Euston, the driver was praised for holding the pendo at 128mph for 125mph sections, as the limiter kickers in at 129mph.

I could be wrong though ....

 

[E&W Lucas]

Never mind between two stations- even over a reasonable distance (such as 500m, 1km, or a mile) would be better- GPS speed data is prone to "spikes" as well as troughs.

GPS cannot be used to accurately record the speed of trains. You get errors when it "moves" between satalites, or loses contact with one, and recalculates its position relative to the others it is in contact with.

There are people employed to monitor how trains are being driven. Can we leave it to them please?

 

[tornado]

This document on alternatives to HS2 makes for an interesting read: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/alternativestudy/pdf/railintervention.pdf

Apparently the best Man-Eus timing that can be achieved is 1 hr 57 min using the existing WCML. Maybe HS2 is the best solution...

 

[dk1]

This document on alternatives to HS2 makes for an interesting read: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/alternativestudy/pdf/railintervention.pdf

Apparently the best Man-Eus timing that can be achieved is 1 hr 57 min using the existing WCML. Maybe HS2 is the best solution...

The 07.00 Man-Eus frequently completes the run in 1h54m, a very credible timing for what is becoming a very reliable service.

 

[yorkie]

The GPS attachment clearly shows quite a bit of sustained 125mph running. I don't get where the 130mph claims come from? A train doesn't suddenly change speed, so it's pretty obvious that the spikes are in reality far smoother than that. So if your GPS says 130mph then 120mph then you can be pretty sure it's actually 125 and it's just having a little bit of difficulty getting a totally accurate measure due to the fact you're in a shielded tube travelling at high speed using a device that isn't really designed for that level of accuracy in such conditions.

 

[tornado]

The graph only looks "spiky" as data for 184 miles is compressed into a small window. The train appears to accelerate from 125-129/130mph and then decelerate back to 125mph over intervals of about 1/2 mile. This is consistent with the limiter kicking in at 129mph (mentioned earlier).

Anyway, I'm much more interested in hearing about what can be done to bring the "non-125mph" dips up to speed. Are these mainly due to other trains ahead?

 

[The Planner]

Could be anything, the driver may not be using the cruise control, slight dips in the linespeed, you name it.

 

[yorkie]

Half a mile is only 15 seconds at 120mph.

 

[jon0844]

GPS cannot be used to accurately record the speed of trains. You get errors when it "moves" between satalites, or loses contact with one, and recalculates its position relative to the others it is in contact with.

Maybe with a GPS receiver made in the 1990s, but not anything in recent years. You can be incredibly accurate. Sorry if it reveals the fact that some drivers will nudge over the speed limit a little!

 

[CosherB]

Half a mile is only 15 seconds at 120mph.

Every 15 seconds in Concorde supercruise we did 6 miles!

Irrelevant to thread, for which I apologise. But fun, nonetheless!

 

[A60K]

Maybe with a GPS receiver made in the 1990s, but not anything in recent years. You can be incredibly accurate. Sorry if it reveals the fact that some drivers will nudge over the speed limit a little!

It's fine if you're sitting on the roof of a Pendolino, but inside the GPS reception is severely hampered. I've never been able to get a sustained consistent reading on a Pendolino journey, but I can on many other trains using the same GPS receiver.

 

[tornado]

My GPS is based on SiRFstar-III (2004) and signal quality was strong except for in tunnels.
In case anyone is interested the train slows from 125mph at the following places:
1) Stone Junction - branch to Stone (75mph)
2) Colwich Junction - where the WCML splits to Manchester and Crewe (drops to 50mph)
3) Atherstone - branch to B'ham (90mph)
4) Trent Valley Junction - (85mph)
5) Denbigh Hall South Jn - (95mph)
6) Watford Junction - (95mph)
7) Camden Jn - (25mph) , but has to slow down for Euston anyway

Out of the above Colwich Jn seems to be the most significant bottleneck. I wonder how they'll get round this for HS2?

 

[TDK]

Maybe my GPS is wrong, but I'm guessing the cruise control can't react instantly to overspeeding. Anyway - my main question was whether it would be possible to regularly run trains at <2hrs with minor track upgrades?

It would be more than a minor upgrade or it would have been done, the speeds from Euston on the fast to Rugby are mostly 125 however there are places that are 115, 110 and 100 for EPS, to upgrade this to 125 would only save about 4 to 6 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The track distance from Manchester-London is 184 miles, and current average speed is ~90mph. If all the bottlenecks were removed then theoretically you could do a (non-stop) journey in as little as 1hr30min @125mph. I thought ERTMS level 2 was only needed for >125mph?

Does that include accelleration and decelleration?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The graph only looks "spiky" as data for 184 miles is compressed into a small window. The train appears to accelerate from 125-129/130mph and then decelerate back to 125mph over intervals of about 1/2 mile. This is consistent with the limiter kicking in at 129mph (mentioned earlier).

Anyway, I'm much more interested in hearing about what can be done to bring the "non-125mph" dips up to speed. Are these mainly due to other trains ahead?

I doubt if a pendo could accellerate from 125 to 129 in 15 seconds!

 

[tornado]

I doubt if a pendo could accellerate from 125 to 129 in 15 seconds!

Pendolinos use Alstom Onix traction drive: they can do 0-60mph in 60 seconds, and have acceleration of 0.43m/s2. So they could easily accelerate 125-129mph in 15s.

Does that include accelleration and decelleration?

Oops! No. If it stops at 3 stations I guess that adds around 15mins incl. waiting time so the "best" classic time would be around 1hr 45mins.

From a WCML driver on another forum: "The best time I've done from Manchester to Euston is 1hr 52m, if everything is running right then this happens quite often. Most parts of the WCML is 125mph including Rugby which at first was unnerving to say the least, it started at 75mph then dropped to 40mph for engineering works and then shot to 125mph" <-- I'm guessing this is the 7am which only calls at Stockport.

 

[Geezertronic]

Out of the above Colwich Jn seems to be the most significant bottleneck. I wonder how they'll get round this for HS2?

HS2 is planned to be a completely new line. Even with the existing plans to Birmingham initially, HS2 will connect to the WCML around Lichfield so the bottleneck will still be there until (or if) HS2 gets extended further North than Lichfield.

 

[mumrar]

3) Atherstone - branch to B'ham (90mph)

I know it's off topic, but what branch to Birmingham at Atherstone? The nearest junction to Atherstone is south at Nuneaton, but with the Pendolino going to Euston it should be full speed all the way.

 

[The Planner]

In case anyone is interested the train slows from 125mph at the following places:
1) Stone Junction - branch to Stone (75mph)

Unless Stone Jn gets a big re-modelling, you wont get much more out of that.

3) Atherstone - branch to B'ham (90mph)

Should have been going 100mph through there.

4) Trent Valley Junction - (85mph)

125mph on the fasts.

5) Denbigh Hall South Jn - (95mph)

Again, 125mph on the fasts.

6) Watford Junction - (95mph)

110mph line speed on the fasts.

7) Camden Jn - (25mph) , but has to slow down for Euston anyway

Out of the above Colwich Jn seems to be the most significant bottleneck. I wonder how they'll get round this for HS2?

Some odd speeds you recorded there, either there was something infront of you or something else was happening.

 

[Edvid]

I've looked at the LNW(N) Baseline Declaration and find the low linespeeds through Colwich Jn rather curious given the recent ~£9bn WCRM; going down to / up from Stone means crawling at 45/50mph. Going down to/up from Stafford is limited to 90mph (I suppose that's influenced by the linespeed from Stafford itself, including Shugborough Tunnel), and even then the layout means the down fast (50mph) becomes slower than the down slow in that short stretch.

On the other side of the coin, I see that the WCML slows are now built for 125mph EPS for ~10 miles between Tamworth and Rugeley Trent Valley exclusive.

 

[dstrat]

I have noticed a couple of times somewhere between Grantham and the Stevange on the ECML my GPS hits 130+mph with a Class 91. I don't know anything about the limiters or anything - thats just what I've seen on more than one occasion on this section!
________
buy vaporizers

 

[The Planner]

I've looked at the LNW(N) Baseline Declaration and find the low linespeeds through Colwich Jn rather curious given the recent ~£9bn WCRM; going down either way (and up from Stone) means crawling at 45/50mph. Even going up from Stafford is limited to 90mph (though I suppose that's influenced by the linespeed from Stafford itself, including Shugborough Tunnel).

Id presume that to get a fast junction you need a lot of room and a shallow diverge as possible as the point work is a lot longer, Colwich doesnt really provide that. Im sure there is a junction on the Selby diversion that is 125mph ?? the switches on that must be massive. Stafford is the same, its a fair old bend south of the station itself.

 

[mumrar]

Queensville curve south of Stafford is a beast, I'd hate to see the difference between wear on the outer rails which get a good flange beating on the fasts. Colwich Jcn is built with the priority route in geographical terms being from Stafford. The line from Stone has to curve severely in order to join on. But then that should be the priority route to go direct through to Glasgow.