WCML Open Access Applications Rejected

[frodshamfella]

This. We're constantly being told that the south WCML is full, the current services are sacrosanct, and no new paths are available ever.
A Euston - Manchester stopper is a much more attractive proposition than a Liverpool one. Surely it's just as simple as extending the Crewe service to Victoria via WBQ and Earlestown?
One would have thought the arrival of GBR would make decisions like this easier, as opposed to pandering to the existing TOC"s and protecting their monopoly.
Birmingham has three different TOC's offering services to London. Manchester has one. Competition hasn't happened.

The Euston to Liverpool LNWR was very popular, it just wasn't reliable. I suspect trying to do similar to Manchester Victoria will end up the same very delayed.

 

[A S Leib]

Crewe to Weaver Junction.

However Crewe to Manchester via Stockport or Styal is constrained by capacity at Piccadilly.

Lower demand, but is there anything which would currently prevent 3tph between Crewe and Chester?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Lower demand, but is there anything which would currently prevent 3tph between Crewe and Chester?

Isn’t that a bit short for an Open Access operation?

 

[Brubulus]

Crewe to Weaver Junction.

However Crewe to Manchester via Stockport or Styal is constrained by capacity at Piccadilly.

So a platform 0 at Piccadilly would enable more trains into Manchester via Stockport or Styal. Always assumed that the entire corridor was at capacity.

 

[The Planner]

Lower demand, but is there anything which would currently prevent 3tph between Crewe and Chester?

Only the block sections, but Beeston and Crewe Steelworks boxes are due to be abolished.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

So a platform 0 at Piccadilly would enable more trains into Manchester via Stockport or Styal. Always assumed that the entire corridor was at capacity.

0 would be a pain from the fasts and slows, low numbers usually are Ashburys direction.

 

[Zomboid]

would be a pain from the fasts and slows, low numbers usually are Ashburys direction

Would it not enable everything to move one platform to the east and create a "spare" in the middle?

 

[Bald Rick]

So a platform 0 at Piccadilly would enable more trains into Manchester via Stockport or Styal. Always assumed that the entire corridor was at capacity.

When I said Piccadilly, I meant the approaches too. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

 

[185]

The Euston to Liverpool LNWR was very popular, it just wasn't reliable. I suspect trying to do similar to Manchester Victoria will end up the same very delayed.

With the Daily Mail article the other day, even with 8 or 12 coaches the Trent Valley LNR service is far beyond capacity and one of them is the 3rd worst in the UK for overcrowding. Any new paths for some fancy open access venture should be pushed aside for making the Trent Valley LNR half hourly, not sure if the second train should be all the way to Crewe though.

 

[A S Leib]

even with 8 or 12 coaches the Trent Valley LNR service is far beyond capacity

That's with Avanti calling at Nuneaton hourly which they didn't in 2019 (and I think with the second Liverpool due to call at Tamworth and Lichfield). How much of the issue is down to it being a lot cheaper to EMR from Derby and Leicester to London?

 

[87015]

That's with Avanti calling at Nuneaton hourly which they didn't in 2019 (and I think with the second Liverpool due to call at Tamworth and Lichfield). How much of the issue is down to it being a lot cheaper to EMR from Derby and Leicester to London?

Its the 1746 quoted and its very busy to MK because the Liverpool in front has been made pick up only leaving it as the first train for 20 or 25 mins depending on what you choose as fast services, the Euston PM peak has far too little FL outer-suburban capacity (and only one 12-car) all of which are around the busyness of said 1746. Using that to claim the Trent needs more stopper trains all day is a bizarre leap.

 

[frodshamfella]

With the Daily Mail article the other day, even with 8 or 12 coaches the Trent Valley LNR service is far beyond capacity and one of them is the 3rd worst in the UK for overcrowding. Any new paths for some fancy open access venture should be pushed aside for making the Trent Valley LNR half hourly, not sure if the second train should be all the way to Crewe though.

Although the Liverpool to Euston by LNWR was popular , it better now its reverted back to Liverpool to Birmingham, reliability has improved.

 

[Class 170101]

Although the Liverpool to Euston by LNWR was popular , it better now its reverted back to Liverpool to Birmingham, reliability has improved.

Seemed a long way to me. Would have been better extending the London to Crewe service, though I think that was scuppered by Competition or something like that.

Whether these new ideas to Manchester Victoria / Airport will be any good / even happen at all who knows

 

[Adam Evans]

Seemed a long way to me. Would have been better extending the London to Crewe service, though I think that was scuppered by Competition or something like that.

Whether these new ideas to Manchester Victoria / Airport will be any good / even happen at all who knows

The proposals to extend the Euston - Crewe service to Manchester Victoria seems to have been wiped from their website on the 'Destination Manchester page' as it only mentions about going to Manchester Airport now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seemed a long way to me. Would have been better extending the London to Crewe service, though I think that was scuppered by Competition or something like that.
Whether these new ideas to Manchester Victoria / Airport will be any good / even happen at all who knows

DfT can change TOC routes/frequencies/stopping patterns, but since 2019 they contracted Liverpool-London to Avanti, hence WMT have to be indirect (like the Man Vic service would be).
It could all change when both Avanti and WMT are GBR'd. Until then the "franchise" boundaries are fixed.
Avanti also has a Manchester-Crewe-Birmingham-London peak train.

 

[Wyrleybart]

DfT can change TOC routes/frequencies/stopping patterns, but since 2019 they contracted Liverpool-London to Avanti, hence WMT have to be indirect (like the Man Vic service would be).
It could all change when both Avanti and WMT are GBR'd. Until then the "franchise" boundaries are fixed.
Avanti also has a Manchester-Crewe-Birmingham-London peak train.

interesting that. I would have thought Avanti have no spare rolling stock, but WMR / LNwR have handed back most of the 350/2s. Technically. could LNwR have leased a few 350/2s to run the EUS-LIV additiohnal service ? Especially as they don't appear to be earning their fleet owner much bunce at the moment.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The proposals to extend the Euston - Crewe service to Manchester Victoria seems to have been wiped from their website on the 'Destination Manchester page' as it only mentions about going to Manchester Airport now.

I guess from the fact that they have updated their website, we can infer that they are thinking about some kind of extension - and the idea hasn't simply been forgotten

I think for Manchester passengers, even Manchester Airport would be better than Crewe because if you're travelling on an LNWR/Northern only ticket, Manchester Airport gives you much better options for getting into Manchester than Crewe does, with its one very slow Northern tph. And it would give a lot of communities South of Crewe a new direct connection to Manchester Airport.

And I for one will be very happy because I often go London to Lancaster or Windermere. And if LNWR run through to Manchester Airport, that would mean I can use a cheap LNWR ticket to get to Manchester Airport and then pick up a direct train to Windermere from there

 

[Adam Evans]

I guess from the fact that they have updated their website, we can infer that they are thinking about some kind of extension - and the idea hasn't simply been forgotten

I think for Manchester passengers, even Manchester Airport would be better than Crewe because if you're travelling on an LNWR/Northern only ticket, Manchester Airport gives you much better options for getting into Manchester than Crewe does, with its one very slow Northern tph. And it would give a lot of communities South of Crewe a new direct connection to Manchester Airport.

And I for one will be very happy because I often go London to Lancaster or Windermere. And if LNWR run through to Manchester Airport, that would mean I can use a cheap LNWR ticket to get to Manchester Airport and then pick up a direct train to Windermere from there

Yeah, I suppose it's better than what we have now. But they had already planned to do the airport extension with the current Crewe-Stafford via Stoke stopper. The Euston to Crewe service is still going to terminate at Crewe.

For those living in North Manchester (like me) who're required to get into Victoria and then walk or tram it across the city centre, and also those who're looking for a cheaper alternative than Avanti to get to London this is a real blow.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would have thought Avanti have no spare rolling stock

Avanti procured the 807 fleet specifically to enable the additional Liverpools.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Regarding who uses the LNR 1Uxx Crewes - it’s not really about any of the stops in between, it’s fully loaded from EUS and only drops off a small amount on its way. It’s appeal is the cheap tickets to Stafford and Crewe.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regarding who uses the LNR 1Uxx Crewes - it’s not really about any of the stops in between, it’s fully loaded from EUS and only drops off a small amount on its way. It’s appeal is the cheap tickets to Stafford and Crewe.

I would say it's both. Whenever I've been on it, it's been fully loaded from EUS, but much more lightly loaded (although still a large number of people - it is an 8 car train with a LOT of seats!) by the time it reaches Crewe. In my experience there have normally been lots of people boarding/alighting at most of the Trent Valley stops between Rugby and Stafford - and the impression I have is it's lots of people travelling from Euston AND lots of people travelling locally within the Trent Valley.