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WCML Inside Knowledge Required If Possible

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RichW1

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Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone closely involved with the WCML and Virgin has any news on whether 135mph operation will happen and if so, when would it be likely? I saw news on it and it's been quiet for a while even though it is expressed in the RUS as Virgin want.

Anyone?
 
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RichW1

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Why not? Is it just health and safety body being conservative in attitude?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW I know about 100mph spacing etc but drivers said it was easily technically possible within the spacing that exists so why wouldn't the powers that be just say yes? Seems a straight forward idea :s
 

ainsworth74

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Why not? Is it just health and safety body being conservative in attitude?

Its because in order to travel at higher speeds than 125mph you need in-cab signalling rather than line side colour light signalling. This is an expensive upgrade for not all that much benefit.

Test were carried out on the ECML in the late 80s early 90s using 91+mk4s running at 140mph with a fifth signalling aspect of flashing green to allow the faster running but it was never permanently implemented (but you can still see the flashing aspect today). The reason being that a driver cannot sight signal aspects at speeds higher than 125mph effectively therefore you need in-cab signalling.
 

RichW1

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So in Portugal where they can't do 140mph without ERTMS, they get their Pendolinos to do 137mph and from what I can see it doesn't look much more advanced than our lineside signals. And in Italy they get theirs to do 137mph short of 140mph, so do they have some smaller degree version of ERTMS that isn't quite as advanced but will allow for 137mph running on select sections of their classic network? There's video of the Italian one on youtube as well. It seems 140mph would require ERTMS in their countries.

Either way, it wouldn't seem beyond the wit of man or resources to come up with something in place of a flashing green that would work! So I really don't understand given the above and it not being rocket science as said as to why we can't get over 125mph on sections of our classic rail network too! Really confused tbh. It would benefit largely anglo-scottish services where a good section of time could be taken of present journeys. You see the difference between 110mph and 125mph over 400mile distance so even 135 over sections would take at least 15 mins off if not more!
 

sprinterguy

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Cost grounds is one of the reasons why 135mph running is not applied in the UK. The mooted 135mph section of the WCML was only intended to apply to the Trent Valley section, where special dispensation was to be given to allow the Pendolinos to do this, as was the case with the special flashing green aspect on the ECML around Stoke Bank for the 225s.

To roll out 135mph operation throughout the length of the WCML would undoubtedly require more stringent safety specifications and more complex operational requirements, as there are a lot more variables to consider in attempting to signal an entire 400 mile long main line for 135mph running than in a reasonably self-contained, four track 20-30 mile stretch with few junctions and other traffic joining/leaving the main line like the Trent Valley offers.

Plus allowing 135mph running would impact negatively on pathing along the WCML, as it would be harder to thread faster 135mph Pendolinos between slower 100mph Transpennine and London Midland services, 75mph local Northern services in other areas, and slower freights in the various two-track sections of the West Coast route.

And complete 135mph operation throughout the length of the WCML would be impossible anyway, as some of the track alignments, most notably north of Preston, would probably be incapable of supporting speeds above 125mph due to tight curvatures, so the time savings would be minimal for many of the services accelerated at the south end of the WCML, when compared to the installation cost of making changes to the signalling, even without in-cab systems if it were possible.

This recent post gives more details of the technical constraints of running above 125mph in the UK:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=476829&postcount=12
 

swt_passenger

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It seems to me that every time this subject comes up, the eventual bottom line is that someone, somewhere thinks that because the UK standards require cab signalling for 140 mph operation, logically you don't need cab signalling below 140, so 135 must be OK.

The correct interpretation is that UK standards require cab signalling above 125 mph, therefore 140 mph is not the boundary point, it is 15 mph past it...
 

The Planner

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Like SprinterGuy has said, it was only ever going to be down the Trent Valley. Colwich to Rugby is about 45 miles and if you ignore the Atherstone bends where you are never going to get more than the current 100mph the best you could save is 1½ minutes. If you included the bends, then its going to be a minute at best, thats not a timetable breaker.
 

AeroSpace

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I've always found it a bit odd that when studies were commissioned to find the maximum speed at which lineside signals can be observed reliably, the answer that popped out just happened to equal the current maximum operating speed.

Sounds a bit fishy, that's all.
 

A60K

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I've always found it a bit odd that when studies were commissioned to find the maximum speed at which lineside signals can be observed reliably, the answer that popped out just happened to equal the current maximum operating speed.

Sounds a bit fishy, that's all.
Fishy? Rather than being fishy, it's logical. A number of detailed studies have been made to assess the sighting issue. If the studies are carried out properly then you would expect them to come up with the same answer each time!

Given that the design and construction of the Mk1 human eye hasn't changed since the first study of this I would be rather worried if different studies came up with different answers.


 

MidnightFlyer

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NR will never allow it because they would have to space signals further apart and resignal near enough the whole ML to cope with higher speed.
 

Railsigns

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Signal spacing isn't the only issue. Every signal has to be visible for sufficient time to give drivers a chance to read its aspect properly. Taking the maximum permissible speed, the required sighting distance may be calculated based on the required reading time (short interruptions to sighting are allowed, subject to various strict rules being satisfied). Increasing the maximum speed therefore increases the required sighting distance. The Trent Valley is one of the last sections of the WCML where I would contemplate running at 135 mph with lineside signals. With all the curves, it was difficult enough making the signal sighting compliant for 125 mph.
 

YorkshireBear

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Aren't you warned if a signal is not green, if so you know to look and to slow down slightly anyway?
 

Railsigns

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Aren't you warned if a signal is not green, if so you know to look and to slow down slightly anyway?
The AWS will sound a warning, which has to be acknowledged, but AWS is not a substitute for observing signal aspects.
 

AeroSpace

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Fishy? Rather than being fishy, it's logical. A number of detailed studies have been made to assess the sighting issue. If the studies are carried out properly then you would expect them to come up with the same answer each time!

Given that the design and construction of the Mk1 human eye hasn't changed since the first study of this I would be rather worried if different studies came up with different answers.

Not all eyes are the same. Different people will be safe at different speeds, depending on many factors, including eyesight quality, length and type of training, and psychological aptitude for the task.

It's not surprising that current drivers who have been selected for 125mph operation, and trained for 125mph operation, are unreliable at reading signals at 140mph!

Did the studies investigate whether certain hand-picked drivers could reach reliability at 140mph, given sufficient training?
 

ainsworth74

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Aren't you warned if a signal is not green, if so you know to look and to slow down slightly anyway?

AWS will only tell you if a signal is green or not, it gives no information as to whether or not a signal is red, yellow or double yellow and its important to know what the exact aspect is in order to take the correct action. A red signal requires decidedly different action to yellow or double yellow.

As railsigns says AWS is not a substitute for actually seeing the aspect.
 
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The Planner

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Did the studies investigate whether certain hand-picked drivers could reach reliability at 140mph, given sufficient training?
Which would then mean they had to stick to the same diagrams and you would then have to timetable certain services of that service pattern at 140mph and not others. What do you do if that driver is off sick ?? Easier to have everyone doing it or none at all.
 

RichW1

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Thanks all for your contributions; it's a lot clearer now and there seems to be several reasons for staying at 125mph from traffic volume to sighting, curvature and sections unable to accommodate anything quicker in the north.

I have to say though, with ERTMS so far off for WCML it seems such a huge waste of a train to buy all that technology just to have it 'ticking over' at 125mph and not do 140. Pendolinos when they go past at 125mph just look like they are restrained and will spend their whole lives on one big speed restriction. So sad and reminds me of the ECML with 91's which never made it either, oh and APT. 3 attempts and all failed to rise above 125. Shameful. I'm not saying the full lines should be equipped for it but just some areas.

Of course, ECML could never manage such a speed now as it's a diesel railway again really. Half the rolling stock in diesel and most destination termination points don't have wires so it'd be impossible to match 125's with 140mph trains these days even if it that speed could technically be achieved in daily service.

1976 - no change since. Bring on HS2 because I really have had enough of 140 mph trains being bought and left to languish looking stupid on main lines that won't allow them to stretch their legs. Pendolinos look very odd to me at 125 they really do. Everything about them looks like it should be going quicker. Might as well have refurbished all those mark 3's and not bothered! No wonder Virgin weren't happy. All that modern track and cabling and stuck with old signalling methods and 125 speeds.

In conclusion, I now think, if we don't get anything over 125mph on the WCML as it seems we won't, it appears like it's all been just a massive waste of money. The wrong signalling for the high grade track and the wrong trains for the low speeds attained. How very very sad. :s
 

The Planner

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The wrong signalling for the high grade track and the wrong trains for the low speeds attained. How very very sad. :s

Take it you havent ridden the WCML south of Rugby on a Pendo recently ?? High grade isnt what Id call it, the ride is bloody awful and downright scary in a vestibule.....
 

Old Timer

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AWS will only tell you if a signal is green or not, it gives no information as to whether or not a signal is red, yellow or double yellow and its important to know what the exact aspect is in order to take the correct action. A red signal requires decidedly different action to yellow or double yellow.

As railsigns says AWS is not a substitute for actually seeing the aspect.
Part of the nonesense that emanated from the Ladbroke Grove Inquiry were changes to the sighting of signals, such that for example an OHL wire passing momentarily across a signal aspects counts as on obscuration :roll: :roll:

In this case the sighting now has to be unobscured for the total required reading time, even though OHL equipment has been passing across signal aspects since the 1930s and there was and never has been any suggestion that anything caused an obscuration of the signal.

The outcome is to cause enormous problesm with the siting of signals, and we are almost at the point of having to put up banner repeaters up to repeat the banner repeater for the signal :roll: :roll: :roll:

This conspires to make even the most modest of signalling changes almost beyond affordibility, as when taken to its ultimate, it can mean complete relocations of signals for miles and miles. In some cases the "new" requirements strangle simple schemes on the drawing board.

This whole signal sighting farce was something that gained a life of its own through pressure and opinion by non-professionals who felt the need to be seen "doing something" and coming up with reams of Recommendations, and a Government who would not accept through media pressure that maybe, just maybe, there was little that could have been done differently.

There was no evidence to say that any equipment pasing in front of the signal made any impact whatsoever upon a Driver's ability to read, understand, interpret, and act upon the aspect displayed, yet this became something of a major issue subsequently.

For obvious reasons we will never know the causes of the accident, in the same way that we do not know the causes of the Shrewsbury or Salisbury high speed accidents.

When all other explanations fail, you have to put it down to human error, and as long as a human being is involved in any operation whether at the front end or in its design, there will always be room for human error. Unfortunately we now live in a Country where such a propiotion is tantamount to career suicide at the hands of self interested and politically motivated groups, and individuals.

Signal sighting became the scapegoat of Labroke Grove, just as working hours and testing became the scapegoats at Clapham - the tech never claimed to being tired (actually the opposite if I recall), and the wire termination would not have been found during testing, yet these two issues caused mayhem way beyond their significance, and have actually lead to the Railway being in a less safe state for decades as a result. Indeed we are still living with this inheritance, which addressed issues that were never a factor in the accident.

Refreshingly, on the Continent there is still very much an atmosphere which accepts that you can only do what you can reasonable do to prevent human error accidents and they do not go round beating themselves up about it..

I often wonder whether if the same people who involve themselves in railway accidents were to operate the same standards in aviation, that we would actually be able to board an aircraft with a human pilot ?

Some 25 years after Manchester, survivability is still less than optimal as a result of the Industry refusing to issue smoke hoods. Yet do we hear the self-interest groups screaming about it from the rooftops ? Do we have that lady Lawyer on our screens bleating about the lack of affordable life saving measures ?

The silence is deafening.
 
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ainsworth74

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it appears like it's all been just a massive waste of money.

Well I do wonder from time to time where exactly all the money went for the WCML upgrade which was supposed to deliver something with a lot of bells and whistles and really really didn't after all was said and done.

But I will say on this thread as I have elsewhere. Before we start upgrading our existing high speed mainlines and start building new ones I still think we should be electrifying more of the network (read MML/GWML as well as infill in other areas) and increasing line speeds of slower lines to take advantage of the fact that most modern rolling stock is capable of 100mph at least but most lines aren't.
 

AeroSpace

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Which would then mean they had to stick to the same diagrams and you would then have to timetable certain services of that service pattern at 140mph and not others. What do you do if that driver is off sick ?? Easier to have everyone doing it or none at all.

I fully understand your point but it is a non-argument. Pendolino drivers have to stick to Pendolino diagrams; is that such a problem? Or do you train all drivers to drive all trains on all routes?!

If certain people can be reliably trained for 140mph signal sighting, then there is no safety objection, which is the only point I'm trying to make. It would just cost a lot more money, both in extra training and in possibly higher pay to attract enough people who are suited to the task to drive all the trains needed to be driven.
 

Old Timer

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Well I do wonder from time to time where exactly all the money went for the WCML upgrade which was supposed to deliver something with a lot of bells and whistles and really really didn't after all was said and done..
An awful lot went to certain Companies who delivered absolutely nothing to the works but costs. More went on a signalling system that was always going to be a dream rather than a reality but Railtrack in its arrogance insisted would work, even more went to Virgin to "compensate" them for something that they could never have achieved, an awful lot was spent on hiring Railtrack/Network Rail project management organisations who insisted on interfering, man-marking, and second-guessing every act of the Infrastructure Contractors work, and a substantial sum was wasted on reworks by various parts of the West Coast Route Modernisation scheme project teams because there was no strategic co-ordination of the programme and work that was installed in one week was subsequently changed, altered, or removed (or reinstated) by another part of the project.
 

tbtc

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It's millions of pounds needed for the sake of a minute saved. Really not worth it.

140mph on a "stand alone" line (HS2 etc) might make sense, but not when you're sharing tracks with "common or garden" trains.

Much better to concentrate on improving the slowest spots than trying to improve the existing fast spots
 

lm321412

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Well, just look how long it took / cost to upgrade the WCML to 125mph. I'm sure they aren't going to go all the effort just to get it up to 135mph which would only be achiveable in a small section.

Heres a question, The 390s ride quality isn't best at 125mph, so what is it like at 140mph?
 

Old Timer

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...If certain people can be reliably trained for 140mph signal sighting, then there is no safety objection, which is the only point I'm trying to make. It would just cost a lot more money, both in extra training and in possibly higher pay to attract enough people who are suited to the task to drive all the trains needed to be driven.
BR did a lot of research into this in the run up to the introduction of the HSs in the 1970s.

The consensus of medical opinion was that above 125 mph there is less chance that the Driver can respond acceptably to the sighting of a signal at the visibility and signal spacing we currently have. Given adequate long sighting and appropriate signal spacing then I am sure it would be possible to travel at a higher speed.

None the less that was the findings of the medical researchers, and this was subsequently taken as the limit by HMRI>

Whatever personal views people may hold, 125 is the limit and it aint gonna change !

As an aside, I seem to recall that signal observance at 125 was an issue beloved of the Trade Unions on "safety grounds" until this quickly melted away with the offer of an appropriately sized remuneration package - as do many of these firmly held beliefs.

As an aisde I recall the interesting stance of a PSB TU rep during the re-organisation of the Control structure in the mid 1980s. Asked to take on slightly workload he argued that the PSB Supervisor needed extra support on the basis of workload. When that eventually fell on deaf ears as was always going to be the case, the rep suddenly changed tack and offered to take on the extra workload for an increase in grade.
 

The Planner

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I fully understand your point but it is a non-argument. Pendolino drivers have to stick to Pendolino diagrams; is that such a problem? Or do you train all drivers to drive all trains on all routes?!

No, because all Pendos can do is 125mph full stop. Start adding in certain Pendo diagrams doing 140mph because they have the right driver and the rest only doing 125, then it gets messy.
 

AeroSpace

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I agree, it's impractical to make some Pendolino services 140mph and the rest not.

That's not what I mean to say though. I'm suggesting (hypothetically) making all Pendolino services 140mph. Then the objection is merely cost, not safety or operational convenience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you OT. Your first aside corroborates my point perfectly.

I have a suspicion that triple-digit speeds are already a grey area and that once 125mph was set as an arbitrary limit, signal spacing and such was gradually optimised so that 125mph became the upper limit.
 
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