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WCML EPS speeds

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EE Andy b1

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I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the introduction of 397s was thought by OP to potentially involve changes to EPS speeds... These aren't tilt-capable are they?

Class 397 are non-tilt and nothing to do with EPS (Enhanced Permissible Speeds) and the changes of.
What First TPE and Network Rail have been looking at is raising the Permissible speed for certain types of EMU like the 397 upto a maximum speed of 125 mph on certain sections of the West Coast mainline, especially North from Preston into Scotland. The maximum difference between PS speeds and EPS is 35 mph.
 
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themiller

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Could the increase in speed for non-tilt trains have anything to do with the elimination of slower freight trains from the network? For example, I believe that nuclear flask trains are now allowed to go at up to 60mph whereas soon after pendolino introduction, they were limited to about 40mph. This increase in speed would have allowed cant to be increased thus allowing non-tilt trains to run faster through curves.
 

a_c_skinner

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I think it is simpler than that, people are simply looking again at how much difference tilt makes on some sections of the WCML. Wasn't the Lambrigg derailment partly at least precipitated by differing loading on the emergency crossover after it was re-tamped with more cant so slower freight put more stress on the inside rail?
 

MarkyT

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Could the increase in speed for non-tilt trains have anything to do with the elimination of slower freight trains from the network? For example, I believe that nuclear flask trains are now allowed to go at up to 60mph whereas soon after pendolino introduction, they were limited to about 40mph. This increase in speed would have allowed cant to be increased thus allowing non-tilt trains to run faster through curves.
Surely the maximum cant would be more influenced by damage on the inner rail inflicted by heavy freights moving very slowly around the curve, which is always possible no matter how fast the passenger trains can go.
I think it is simpler than that, people are simply looking again at how much difference tilt makes on some sections of the WCML. Wasn't the Lambrigg derailment partly at least precipitated by differing loading on the emergency crossover after it was re-tamped with more cant so slower freight put more stress on the inside rail?
My concern is the extra weight of tilt-equipped rolling stock and the effect that has had on acceleration, as demonstrated by Voyagers, and fuel consumption and wheel/rail wear maintenance. More modern active bogie and suspension designs could eliminate much of the additional weight of traditional tilting, and improve the ride and reduce lateral sway of car bodies. Proponents of this new technology claim major savings in rail and wheel wear are possible with active steering and roll compensation incorporated in a much more compact and lighter bogie. It is interesting that both Bombardier and Hitachi have experience in this modern form of 'mechatronic' active suspension and these firms are collaborating on a joint HS2 bid.
 

themiller

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Surely the maximum cant would be more influenced by damage on the inner rail inflicted by heavy freights moving very slowly around the curve, which is always possible no matter how fast the passenger trains can go.

My concern is the extra weight of tilt-equipped rolling stock and the effect that has had on acceleration, as demonstrated by Voyagers, and fuel consumption and wheel/rail wear maintenance. More modern active bogie and suspension designs could eliminate much of the additional weight of traditional tilting, and improve the ride and reduce lateral sway of car bodies. Proponents of this new technology claim major savings in rail and wheel wear are possible with active steering and roll compensation incorporated in a much more compact and lighter bogie. It is interesting that both Bombardier and Hitachi have experience in this modern form of 'mechatronic' active suspension and these firms are collaborating on a joint HS2 bid.
In an ideal world, cant would be set so that all trains would pass at the same speed. However, in the real world we have a mixed traffic railway and compromises must be made. Track must be set to allow for all speeds from zero up to the maximum required. This may involve reducing the maximum speed, accepting enhanced wear or straightening the track. My original suggestion was that cant had been increased with the increase in freight traffic speed. Any extra wear would be noticed for slow freights but if you can keep them running at their maximum speed by regulation there should be a lower level of wear to the inner rail.
 

Carlisle

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Roger Ford commented in Modern Railways that the reliability figures on the XC 221s improved significantly on the VT ones, despite doing similar duties and being maintained by the same depot, after the former had their tilt equipment isolated.
I can well believe that, as in the early days of tilt on the 221s I believe there were a fair number of unexpected brake appliications & failures resulting from tilt system faults , regardless of whether they were actually running on tilt or non tilt routes, however that appears to have been largely fixed nowadays on the remaining Virgin Voyagers, happy to be corrected if wrong
 
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