WCML electrification plans post-1966 at the time: what was being considered?

[LNW-GW Joint]

The original WCML electrification (south from Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham) was only just completed, after critical reviews around 1963 (Beeching's year).
Apart from the cost, there was concern that BR would ever deliver the faster journeys promised, the railway then being seen as a "black hole" for funding.
In the end the project was cut back with limited resignalling (eg retaining manual boxes in the Trent Valley and at Stockport*).
On completion BR then had to deliver the improved services (which it did) to convince government that more electrification should be pursued.

*which of course are still there, 60 years on, after the failure of the WCRM project to deliver a replacement in the 00s.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I've heard that also. Think the constituency may have been South Ayrshire.

There was a South Ayrshire by-election in 1970, but Labour won it comfortably. They had also been run close by the SNP in Glasgow Pollok in 1967 - perhaps this, coupled with the loss in Hamilton, had the Wilson government rattled?

The ever reliable Christian Wolmar (in his recent book "British Rail - A New History") suggests that the announcement that the remaining part of the WCML was to be electrified, was an 'incentive' to the Scottish public, having been announced by the Labour Government just before the 1970 (South) Ayrshire by-election, (which was indeed won quite easily, so the announcement may possibly, or possibly not as the case may be, have had some effect).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The original WCML electrification (south from Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham) was only just completed, after critical reviews around 1963 (Beeching's year).
Apart from the cost, there was concern that BR would ever deliver the faster journeys promised, the railway then being seen as a "black hole" for funding.
In the end the project was cut back with limited resignalling (eg retaining manual boxes in the Trent Valley and at Stockport*).
On completion BR then had to deliver the improved services (which it did) to convince government that more electrification should be pursued.

*which of course are still there, 60 years on, after the failure of the WCRM project to deliver a replacement in the 00s.

Hang on Euston, Watford Jcn, Bletchley, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New St (only just closing) and Wolverhampton PSBs were built as part of original WCML electrification. Furthermore don't ever recollect the service falling apart because 100 year old box at Stockport had issues unlike the Ansaldo rubbish that was installed all around it.

 

[jfollows]

Hang on Euston, Watford Jcn, Bletchley, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New St (only just closing) and Wolverhampton PSBs were built as part of original WCML electrification. Furthermore don't ever recollect the service falling apart because 100 year old box at Stockport had issues unlike the Ansaldo rubbish that was installed all around it.

You forgot Willesden Junction and Nuneaton!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You forgot Willesden Junction and Nuneaton!

argh yes grey matter not what it was

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hang on Euston, Watford Jcn, Bletchley, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New St (only just closing) and Wolverhampton PSBs were built as part of original WCML electrification. Furthermore don't ever recollect the service falling apart because 100 year old box at Stockport had issues unlike the Ansaldo rubbish that was installed all around it.

Well, the WCML was a very poor performer in the electrification years, even in the working week, over a decade or so.
There were concerns that it would recover the lost business.
By contrast the WCRM project tried very hard to maintain the weekday service, but did lose it at weekends over 5+ years.
Yes, there was a string of new PSBs in the 1960s scheme, but not Lichfield-Stafford, at Stockport, or towards Liverpool.
Luckily the lineside kit was new, but the controlling boxes, including some new lever frames, remained manual.
There were also hopes of more wiring around Birmingham (eg to Rugeley) which were not realised.

 

[Ken H]

Well, the WCML was a very poor performer in the electrification years, even in the working week, over a decade or so.
There were concerns that it would recover the lost business.
By contrast the WCRM project tried very hard to maintain the weekday service, but did lose it at weekends over 5+ years.
Yes, there was a string of new PSBs in the 1960s scheme, but not Lichfield-Stafford, at Stockport, or towards Liverpool.
Luckily the lineside kit was new, but the controlling boxes, including some new lever frames, remained manual.
There were also hopes of more wiring around Birmingham (eg to Rugeley) which were not realised.

There were manual boxes at Atherstone, polesworth, Tamworth and Litchfield TV too. Well into the 90's. Why would anyone think modernising Atherstone & Polesworth rather than making part of nuneaton power box?

 

[jfollows]

There were manual boxes at Atherstone, polesworth, Tamworth and Litchfield TV too. Well into the 90's. Why would anyone think modernising Atherstone & Polesworth rather than making part of nuneaton power box?

Coton Crossing and Hademore Crossing also.

 

[MadMac]

There were manual boxes at Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth and Lichfield TV too. Well into the 90's. Why would anyone think modernising Atherstone & Polesworth rather than making part of Nuneaton power box?

There was a power box built at Stafford, but that’s as far as it got. I’m guessing that the money ran out.

 

[jfollows]

There was a power box built at Stafford, but that’s as far as it got. I’m guessing that the money ran out.

Do you mean Norton Bridge?
At Stafford, Stafford No. 4 and Stafford No. 5 signal boxes remained until only a few years ago. There were other Stafford signal boxes still in place after electrification (with lower numbers) plus Milford & Brocton and Whitehouse Junction but these went in the 1970s I think.
There was also a power box at Stoke-on-Trent.
But various small signal boxes remained as block posts until relatively recently: Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road, Bradwell Sidings, Mow Cop, Meaford Crossing and Madeley (physically large) all spring to mind. Bradwell Sidings was taken out quite a while ago but lasted until the 1980s at least I think.
Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road and Madeley only went at the time of the WCML upgrade and four-tracking Tamworth-Armitage.

 

[Ken H]

Do you mean Norton Bridge?
At Stafford, Stafford No. 4 and Stafford No. 5 signal boxes remained until only a few years ago. There were other Stafford signal boxes still in place after electrification (with lower numbers) plus Milford & Brocton and Whitehouse Junction but these went in the 1970s I think.
There was also a power box at Stoke-on-Trent.
But various small signal boxes remained as block posts until relatively recently: Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road, Bradwell Sidings, Mow Cop, Meaford Crossing and Madeley (physically large) all spring to mind. Bradwell Sidings was taken out quite a while ago but lasted until the 1980s at least I think.
Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road and Madeley only went at the time of the WCML upgrade and four-tracking Tamworth-Armitage.

And crewe. Still 1940's signalling till 1985. The new crewe powerbox was in a standard industrial shed painted red with a white stripe (to look like a semaphore stop signal?)
I assume Crewe is controlled remotely now???

 

[MadMac]

Do you mean Norton Bridge?
At Stafford, Stafford No. 4 and Stafford No. 5 signal boxes remained until only a few years ago. There were other Stafford signal boxes still in place after electrification (with lower numbers) plus Milford & Brocton and Whitehouse Junction but these went in the 1970s I think.
There was also a power box at Stoke-on-Trent.
But various small signal boxes remained as block posts until relatively recently: Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road, Bradwell Sidings, Mow Cop, Meaford Crossing and Madeley (physically large) all spring to mind. Bradwell Sidings was taken out quite a while ago but lasted until the 1980s at least I think.
Coton Crossing, Hademore Crossing, Betley Road and Madeley only went at the time of the WCML upgrade and four-tracking Tamworth-Armitage.

Just to clarify, the structure at Stafford was built but not used.

 

[jfollows]

Just to clarify, the structure at Stafford was built but not used.

Thank you, I didn't know that, which means I've achieved today's target of learning something new each day ....

 

[Ken H]

Just to clarify, the structure at Stafford was built but not used.

where was/is it, please?

 

[Beebman]

In 1974 BTF released a documentary 'Wires Over the Border' about the Weaver-Glasgow electrification, it's well worth a watch:

 

[Bald Rick]

I assume Crewe is controlled remotely now???

Crewe I still controlled from the 1985 vintage PSB

 

[Ken H]

Crewe I still controlled from the 1985 vintage PSB

Ah. Thanks

 

[Elecman]

where was/is it, please?

On the Downside land Between the new MDU building at Stafford and the former OTM shed , the building was only demolished a few years ago when the new MDU was built

 

[APT618S]

The original WCML electrification (south from Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham) was only just completed, after critical reviews around 1963 (Beeching's year).
Apart from the cost, there was concern that BR would ever deliver the faster journeys promised, the railway then being seen as a "black hole" for funding.

Just picked up a copy of the June 1964 Modern Railways. The editorial is about electrification and quotes this with regard to the WCML:
"No one could be expected to swallow easily the financial facts of an electrification which had mysteriously doubled its costs in the first two years of construction. Those lacking close acquantance with the evolution of the scheme's detail naturally condemned the whole business of electrification as a waste of money."

So hardly surprising there was a delay to going north of Weaver Jn.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Coton Crossing and Hademore Crossing also.

There was also the odd Banbury Lane manual box on the Weedon route south of Rugby, and some on the Birmingham loop (eg Canley, Tipton).
Most of these had to wait until the adjacent level crossings were replaced by bridge/underpass during WCRM.
Atherstone/Tamworth/Hademore/Lichfield/Armitage went with the 4-tracking in the Trent Valley.
There were also strange outposts like Betley Road near Crewe, which just appeared to be a block post.
Norton Bridge had a new power box but controlled very little other than the junction towards Stone.

I think a Manchester-Euston train in 1997 (start of WCRM) passed through something like 32 signal control areas (via Stockport and Crewe).
Today it's 12 I think, reducing to 10 without Colwich and Basford Hall (and the "Stockport 5" is half of that number, which can be avoided via the Styal route).

 

[jfollows]

There was also the odd Banbury Lane manual box on the Weedon route south of Rugby, and some on the Birmingham loop (eg Canley, Tipton).

Banbury Lane wasn't a block post, a minor technicality.
In my youth, Manchester-Euston will have passed through block posts at

• London Road
• Heaton Norris Junction
• Stockport Number 2
• Stockport Number 1
• Edgeley Junction Number 2
• Edgeley Junction Number 1
• Adswood Road Junction
• Cheadle Hulme
• Macclesfield
• Mow Cop
• Kidsgrove
• Bradwell Sidings
• Grange Junction
• Stoke-on-Trent
• Meaford Crossing
• Colwich Junction
• Lichfield
• Hademore Crossing
• Coton Crossing (or these two the other way around, I always forget)
• Tamworth
• Polesworth
• Atherstone
• Nuneaton
• Rugby
• (Banbury Lane)
• Bletchley
• Watford Junction
• Willesden Junction
• Euston

I think! Maybe Longport but I think that had gone by my time. Maybe others I've overlooked! Anyway, quite a collection of large/small.
Out of these, the Stockport collection is still there, and Macclesfield is in the process of being replaced, but I think all the rest have now gone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2022 ==

I think a Manchester-Euston train in 1997 (start of WCRM) passed through something like 32 signal control areas (via Stockport and Crewe).
Today it's 12 I think, reducing to 10 without Colwich and Basford Hall (and the "Stockport 5" is half of that number, which can be avoided via the Styal route).

Colwich Junction signal box has certainly gone now, it's part of a "workstation" on a "panel" at (I think) Stoke, but I no longer understand the distinction between operating centre/panel/workstation and in any case they're not fixed geographically any more, so essentially I couldn't enumerate the signal control areas south of Crewe any more; it's still nice to see Basford Hall Junction in all its relative glory.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The 1955 Modernisation Plan http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docSummary.php?docID=23

For reasons which are too well known to require repetition here, British Railways today are not working at full efficiency, mainly owing to their past inability to attract enough capital investment to keep their physical equipment up to date. This plan aims to produce a thoroughly modern system, able fully to meet both current traffic requirements and those of the forseeable future.

Continuing the electrification north from Weaver junction was discussed in 1968 https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_WCML001.pdf

This is a development of the trunk railway network to improve the commercial position and to lead to a less costly and less labour intensive system. This report concludes and recommends that authority should be given for an outlay of 254.6m. for implementing the scheme as soon as possible. The main line element of the project which includes the electrification will be completed in 4 years, that is in1972, assuming that a start is made in 1968.

Further discussed in Parliament in February 1969 https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1969/feb/03/weaver-junction-motherwell-line
then finally announced by transport minister Richard Marsh and approved by parliament in February 1970

Weaver Junction—Motherwell Line (Electrification)
HC Deb 03 February 1969 vol 777 cc17-817
§49. Mr. Ronald Atkins asked the Minister of Transport what requests he has received from British Railways for the authorisation of the electrification of the Weaver Junction to Motherwell main line; and if he will make a statement.
§Mr. Carmichael I regret that I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) on 5th November, last.—[Vol. 772, c. 76.]
§Mr. Atkins Is it not wrong that this excellent scheme which, for so little cost, would cheapen the cost of operation and increase the capacity of the line enormously and make it much more efficient, should be delayed any longer?
18
§Mr. Carmichael Many factors have to be examined—for example, the regional industrial effects, including those on Scotland, future technological advances and developments of very high speed trains, and the railway construction industry. This is a very complicated matter and needs detailed discussion and examination, particularly in the present economic situation.
§Mr. Younger As preparations have already been in hand for some time on this, would it not be a waste of money to delay the matter further?
§Mr. Carmichael The money involved is very large in amount—so large that I do not think delay could have much effect. Many new techniques are coming forward which might militate against such a scheme or perhaps make another more desirable for this length of line. Where such a large sum of money is at stake, it is better not to make a hasty decision on a complicated issue.

The entire line was eventually electrified from Weaver Junction to Glasgow in the 1970-1974 timeframe https://www.railexpress.co.uk/840/50-years-of-west-coast-electrics/

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRLM_Elec002.pdf

The extension of the electrification of the main line from Crewe to Glasgow marks another important stage in the continuing improvement of rail transport between England and Scotland. The project has involved a comprehensive improvement of the track itself, with complete resignalling, as well as the electrification of the line, so that this 400 miles long trunk route is now among the most modern in the World. Bear in mind, too, that the train services have continued to run through

The final completed cost was 74 million pounds. https://trid.trb.org/view/19915

ELECTRIFICATION OF BR WEST-COAST MAIN LINE COMPLETED
May 6, 1974 saw both the end of the 74 million pound sterling project to electrify and re-signal the West Coast main line between Glasgow and Weaver Junction, just north of Crewe, and the beginning of the best ever rail services between Scotland and England. The massive and complex task of electrifying and resignalling the line between Glasgow and Crewe was authorized by Parliament in February 1970.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The final completed cost was 74 million pounds. https://trid.trb.org/view/19915

Or about 1B in todays money not bad for 200+miles of electrification and 3 mega resignalling schemes. Yes todays rules of engagement are different on safety and standards so lets be generous and say thats doubled costs oh and chuck in 0.5B operator compensation so 2.5B. How much do they want for TPU!!

 

[Ken H]

Or about 1B in todays money not bad for 200+miles of electrification and 3 mega resignalling schemes. Yes todays rules of engagement are different on safety and standards so lets be generous and say thats doubled costs oh and chuck in 0.5B operator compensation so 2.5B. How much do they want for TPU!!

Did the £74m include the resignalling? I assume Carlisle, Preston & Warrington power boxes.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Did the £74m include the resignalling? I assume Carlisle, Preston & Warrington power boxes.

And Motherwell plus an extension to Glasgows area of control

 

[Ken H]

And Motherwell plus an extension to Glasgows area of control

Doh! Of course. Thanks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Doh! Of course. Thanks.

and the panels extended control way off the core WCML route as well. They knew how to deliver efficiently in those days

 

[Ken H]

and the panels extended control way off the core WCML route as well. They knew how to deliver efficiently in those days

but they didnt do Carnforth!