WCML Diversions Over MML

[JLUK144]

I was recently watching this video

I understand that the services ran as normal between St Pancras and Bedford before being hauled by 47s until they reached Nuneaton at which point normal service resumed.

How did they get from Bedford to Nuneaton? Furthermore, what’s the line at end of the video?

My thanks to any information provided.

 

[Aictos]

Not sure but could have been a reversal at Leicester and that way to Nuneaton?

 

[30907]

I was recently watching this video

I understand that the services ran as normal between St Pancras and Bedford before being hauled by 47s until they reached Nuneaton at which point normal service resumed.

How did they get from Bedford to Nuneaton?

My thanks to any information provided.

Curve at Wigston South Junction outside Leicester - see end of video!

 

[JLUK144]

Curve at Wigston South Junction outside Leicester - see end of video!

Ahh. Checked this out and it does look like you’re right. Thank you very much.

How regular were diversions over the MML?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Furthermore, what’s the line at end of the video?

You can just glimpse the Wigston South Junction sign if you stop the vid at about 4:23.

That curve was also used around 9/12/82 for WCML diversions due to a derailment at Leighton Buzzard of a London-Glasgow overnight train.
Here's one I took of a 45 hauling WCML Mk3s (mostly) from the Nuneaton direction towards St Pancras:

 

[hexagon789]

You can just glimpse the Wigston South Junction sign if you stop the vid at about 4:23.

That curve was also used around 9/12/82 for WCML diversions due to a derailment at Leighton Buzzard of a London-Glasgow overnight train.
Here's one I took of a 45 hauling WCML Mk3s (mostly) from the Nuneaton direction towards St Pancras:
View attachment 65948

45s hauling Mk3s seems pretty rare, that's only the second time I've seen such.

 

[Mag_seven]

The good old days when an effort was made to divert where possible and not just stick people on buses or advise them not to travel like they do now.

 

[eastwestdivide]

45s hauling Mk3s seems pretty rare, that's only the second time I've seen such.

Yes, it was. Mainly because the Mk3s were confined to the WCML (and Edinburgh-Glasgow), where any diesel haulage would be 47/4s, while the 45/1s were concentrated on the St Pancras-Sheffield route, then trans-pennine after more HSTs arrived for St Pancras. I'm sure there's exceptions, but normal allocations split the 45/1s from the Mk3s geographically.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, it was. Mainly because the Mk3s were confined to the WCML (and Edinburgh-Glasgow), where any diesel haulage would be 47/4s, while the 45/1s were concentrated on the St Pancras-Sheffield route, then trans-pennine after more HSTs arrived for St Pancras. I'm sure there's exceptions, but normal allocations split the 45/1s from the Mk3s geographically.

The only other instance I've seen was during the 1983 diversions via the Settle-Carlisle, mostly 50s and 47s on the main expresses but the up Royal Scot had a 45 on one occasion.

 

[A0]

The good old days when an effort was made to divert where possible and not just stick people on buses or advise them not to travel like they do now.

In those dim and distant days the MML probably had less of a Sunday service than it has today and Thameslink was certainly less frequent back then.

 

[yorkie]

See also:

This is what BR did when faced with a similar closure in October 1991. (Youtube video not mine)

Work on the West Coast Main Line upgrade resulted in weekend diversion of trains to St Pancras. Class 47 s hauled trains complete with their class 87 locomotives between Nuneaton and Bedford where they could run under the wires to St Pancras.

(yes I know they can't use St Pancras anymore but you get the jist)

What route did these diversions take?
Nuneaton - Wigston - Bedford - St P with diesel haulage Nuneaton - Bedford?

Or was it reversal at Bletchley & Beford with diesel haulage Bletchley - Bedford?

Edit: from the description of

"Work on the West Coast Main Line upgrade resulted in weekend diversion of trains to St Pancras. Class 47 s hauled trains complete with their class 87 locomotives between Nuneaton and Bedford where they could run under the wires to St Pancras.

This cold not happen today for a number of reasons. These days bus replacement services ensure weekend train travel is to be avoided."

 

[alistairlees]

The only other instance I've seen was during the 1983 diversions via the Settle-Carlisle, mostly 50s and 47s on the main expresses but the up Royal Scot had a 45 on one occasion.

50s in 1983 on the S&C? Seems very unlikely. But yes, 45s did drag WCML expresses (with Mk3 coaches) on the S&C in that year and others I am sure.
45s did have regular mk3 duty though - the Bristol - Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeper. Only the sleepers were mk3, the rest was a mixture of mk1 / mk2. This would be from about 1983 to about 1987. There were a couple of occasions where a 45 did a Liverpool - Euston turn (yes, really) in about 1986, I have no idea if that was mk3s or not though. And there are a few Holyhead - Eustons to Crewe, I assume at least some of those involved mk3s. Sometimes this was on being outshopped from Crewe. Only other times they hauled mk3s that I can think of was when HSTs packed up (cheating slightly).

 

[hexagon789]

In those dim and distant days the MML probably had less of a Sunday service than it has today and Thameslink was certainly less frequent back then.

It used to be 90 mins on Saturdays and I think 2-hourly on Sundays iirc.

 

[hexagon789]

50s in 1983 on the S&C? Seems very unlikely. But yes, 45s did drag WCML expresses (with Mk3 coaches) on the S&C in that year and others I am sure.
45s did have regular mk3 duty though - the Bristol - Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeper. Only the sleepers were mk3, the rest was a mixture of mk1 / mk2. This would be from about 1983 to about 1987. There were a couple of occasions where a 45 did a Liverpool - Euston turn (yes, really) in about 1986, I have no idea if that was mk3s or not though. And there are a few Holyhead - Eustons to Crewe, I assume at least some of those involved mk3s. Sometimes this was on being outshopped from Crewe. Only other times they hauled mk3s that I can think of was when HSTs packed up (cheating slightly).

I'll see if I can find the 50s on the diversions.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It used to be 90 mins on Saturdays and I think 2-hourly on Sundays iirc.

In 90 - 91 the MML Saturday service was 1 traiin every 45 mins. Alternating between Sheffield and Nottingham.
Can't remember the Sunday service.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

They certainly dragged IC and even a couple of 310 sets from Bletchley to Bedford (in passenger service) for a few years. Then pan up and into St Pancras.

310 drags were stopped pretty quickly due to "braking issues" - too far back to recall now. Line capacity was limited in semaphore signalling days.

 

[hexagon789]

In 90 - 91 the MML Saturday service was 1 traiin every 45 mins. Alternating between Sheffield and Nottingham.
Can't remember the Sunday service.

Sorry I meant 90 mins in the sense that on weekdays Sheffield and Nottingham were hourly each, but on Saturdays they were every 90 mins each.

 

[hexagon789]

310 drags were stopped pretty quickly due to "braking issues"

I'd guess either the nature of the single pipe air brake (no graduated release) or the perhaps disc brakes themselves causing issues with drivers more used to tread braked stock and the braking characteristics of that.

 

[A0]

It used to be 90 mins on Saturdays and I think 2-hourly on Sundays iirc.

Compare that to 3 trains / hour on a Sunday now - goes some way to explaining why there might not be the capacity to do the diversions they did in the early 90s.

Add in the fact a Pendo probably isn't cleared on the MML from Leicester to St Pancras - and it starts to make a lot of sense as to why such diversions are no longer practical.

 

[hexagon789]

Compare that to 3 trains / hour on a Sunday now - goes some way to explaining why there might not be the capacity to do the diversions they did in the early 90s.

Add in the fact a Pendo probably isn't cleared on the MML from Leicester to St Pancras - and it starts to make a lot of sense as to why such diversions are no longer practical.

They aren't practical on a good number of routes because of increased frequencies now really.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'd guess either the nature of the single pipe air brake (no graduated release) or the perhaps disc brakes themselves causing issues with drivers more used to tread braked stock and the braking characteristics of that.

Probably right on both counts , unfortunately, the Traction Inspector who made the comment to me , is no longer with us. I think they managed to scrape some diesel sets up - and ran some extra shuttles BY- BHM instead - something that was done on other occasions.

 

[hexagon789]

Probably right on both counts , unfortunately, the Traction Inspector who made the comment to me , is no longer with us. I think they managed to scrape some diesel sets up - and ran some extra shuttles BY- BHM instead - something that was done on other occasions.

At least they were able to do that!

 

[Czesziafan]

Not a diversion but an interesting regular working over both the WCML and MML in the early 70's was the 21.00 Euston - Glasgow sleeper, which went via Northampton and the (now closed) ex-LNW line to Wellingborough before following the MML. Interestingly the stock included some of the last surviving LMS designed sleepers in BR service.

 

[alistairlees]

Not a diversion but an interesting regular working over both the WCML and MML in the early 70's was the 21.00 Euston - Glasgow sleeper, which went via Northampton and the (now closed) ex-LNW line to Wellingborough before following the MML. Interestingly the stock included some of the last surviving LMS designed sleepers in BR service.

Didn't this actually go from Northampton to Market Harborough (i.e. not via Wellingborough)? It ended in something like 1972.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Didn't this actually go from Northampton to Market Harborough (i.e. not via Wellingborough)? It ended in something like 1972.

Yes. He got his boroughs in a twist.

Northampton - Wellingboro closed in ... 1963 or 64 ? and had surely been lifted by the time this service, which was the remnant of the St Pancras - G St Enoch sleeper, was diverted via M Harboro and Northampton.

I'm not sure if it ended in 1972 however. I caught it once from Derby in late 1973. The sleepers may have only been attached at Nottingham at that time. It's all a bit lost in time.

 

[Czesziafan]

I stand corrected on the route. Didn't realise it was the remnant of the old St Eunuch service though. Looking at the LMR public timetable for 1970/71 its sad to see how much of the overnight passenger traffic has vanished.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes. He got his boroughs in a twist.

Northampton - Wellingboro closed in ... 1963 or 64 ? and had surely been lifted by the time this service, which was the remnant of the St Pancras - G St Enoch sleeper, was diverted via M Harboro and Northampton.

I'm not sure if it ended in 1972 however. I caught it once from Derby in late 1973. The sleepers may have only been attached at Nottingham at that time. It's all a bit lost in time.

According to Wikipedia the last scheduled pax service was in 1973, so you could well be right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northampton–Market_Harborough_line. No idea if it was the sleeper though.

 

[alistairlees]

I stand corrected on the route. Didn't realise it was the remnant of the old St Eunuch service though. Looking at the LMR public timetable for 1970/71 its sad to see how much of the overnight passenger traffic has vanished.

Slightly different from Enoch!

 

[70014IronDuke]

According to Wikipedia the last scheduled pax service was in 1973, so you could well be right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northampton–Market_Harborough_line. No idea if it was the sleeper though.

As I remember (and I accept that it is very vague now), when they started to attach the sleepers at Nottingham, they reverted to using the normal St Pancras departure for the regular train.

I am sure that I used the sleeping car though. I had to go to Carlisle Kingmoor for work, and I was told to pay for the sleeper and claim it back through expenses. I think it left Derby at about 00.30 and we arrived in Carlisle at around 05.30 or so. I'd caught this train several times in 1968 and slept on the cushions. At least in 1973 I could rely on the sleeping car steward to wake me up. And yes, I do have vague memories that it was an ageing LMS sleeping car even then. (But I could have got the memories all mixed up, so would never insist that this was the case. I think I came back via the WCML and Crewe.)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In those dim and distant days the MML probably had less of a Sunday service than it has today and Thameslink was certainly less frequent back then.

That's true; the Thameslink frequency would have been zero in those days. I think it was around 1987 or 1988 when it started?