WCML disruption 14/7/22

[diffident]

What profit? The sleeper is one of the most heavily subsidised services in the UK.

That’s the point I’m making! This disruption was known this afternoon. Surely that’s plenty of time to source a driver with a financial incentive to run the service? It’s Scottish govt money after all!

 

[800001]

That’s the point I’m making! This disruption was known this afternoon. Surely that’s plenty of time to source a driver with a financial incentive to run the service? It’s Scottish govt money after all!

A driver? You would need at least 4 for the East Coast Mainline sections, then also additional drivers to assist with the reversal at Wembley Yard.
So say 6 extra drivers?
GBRF will not have 6 drivers say around doing nothing ready to work these diverts at a click of fingers

 

[Class 170101]

The Caledonian Sleeper services for tonight has just been announced as cancelled.

Disgraceful

Presumably unable to resource at short notice crew to take it via the ECML. Bit of a shame!

Why? What about via the GSW with Class 73s?

Where do you get the drivers at this short notice?

See below

They can do it as long as they can find the drivers. If GBRf don't have drivers available then it ain't going to happen. Caledonian Sleeper do regularly divert via the ECML but usually with a bit more notice!

Don't GBRF sign the GSW as a standard diversion for Carlisle to Glasgow via the WCML?

The rail industry seriiusly needs to stop relying on the bus industry to bail it out in examples like this especially for through passengers. The bus industry doesn't have enough drivers either, as many have gone HGV driving, it pi***s passengers off too.

 

[800001]

Disgraceful

Why? What about via the GSW with Class 73s?

See below

Don't GBRF sign the GSW as a standard diversion for Carlisle to Glasgow via the WCML?

The rail industry seriiusly needs to stop relying on the bus industry to bail it out in examples like this especially for through passengers. The bus industry doesn't have enough drivers either, as many have gone HGV driving, it pi***s passengers off too.

I’m fully aware they regularly divert via Ecml, but that is preplanned weeks in advance, not at the drop of a hat like today.

As for 73s via GSW, what then hauls the services north to the destinations as all 73s are used each night with none spare.

 

[higthomas]

The Caledonian Sleeper services for tonight has just been announced as cancelled.

And I was booked on it. I'm rather unimpressed they failed to do anything in terms of getting us north. Grrr, the rail industry doesn't help itself

 

[Class 170101]

As for 73s via GSW, what then hauls the services north to the destinations as all 73s are used each night with none spare.

Really? Didn't fancy borrowing a Class 67 then for the Lowland sleeper.

 

[800001]

Really? Didn't fancy borrowing a Class 67 then for the Lowland sleeper.

Can a 67 couple to a mk5? Let alone power the mk5s?

Isn’t that the reason 73s are utilised?

 

[londonmidland]

Apparently the Sleeper will be stabled at Euston overnight to offer CS pax overnight static accommodation, until they can find themselves alternative travel arrangements.

 

[800001]

Apparently the Sleeper will be stabled at Euston overnight to offer CS pax overnight static accommodation, until they can find themselves alternative travel arrangements.

You mean until CS find the customers alternative arrangements?

 

[390136]

There’s the possibility of today’s disruption affecting tomorrow’s service.

Awaiting more info.

It almost certainly will, train operating companies will most likely have a train imbalance at various depots tomorrow morning

 

[Peter0124]

Sleeper showing on time at the departure boards at Motherwell, with the Avanti services cancelled obviously, is this a mistake?

 

[hexagon789]

Sleeper showing on time at the departure boards at Motherwell, with the Avanti services cancelled obviously, is this a mistake?

Yes, a mistake. It is cancelled.

 

[Bill57p9]

Yes, a mistake. It is cancelled.

Indeed, however the stock is in Edinburgh and Glasgow Central, presumably to act as a stationary "hotel on wheels".
The southbound Fort William and Aberdeen portions are heading towards Edinburgh too, presumably to ease onward travel.

A driver? You would need at least 4 for the East Coast Mainline sections, then also additional drivers to assist with the reversal at Wembley Yard.
So say 6 extra drivers?
GBRF will not have 6 drivers say around doing nothing ready to work these diverts at a click of fingers

In my line of work (which also has complex competency requirements) additional attendances are well rewarded to increase staff willingness to accept them when problems occur.
Much as I am a proponent of railways, I can't help feeling that the system could be a bit more resilient to disruption and not throw the towel in quite so easily, and that such resilience would drive custom.

 

[800001]

Indeed, however the stock is in Edinburgh and Glasgow Central, presumably to act as a stationary "hotel on wheels".
The southbound Fort William and Aberdeen portions are heading towards Edinburgh too, presumably to ease onward travel.


In my line of work (which also has complex competency requirements) additional attendances are well rewarded to increase staff willingness to accept them when problems occur.
Much as I am a proponent of railways, I can't help feeling that the system could be a bit more resilient to disruption and not throw the towel in quite so easily, and that such resilience would drive custom.

Who says they’ve thrown the towel
In easy?

How do you know that they have not spent hours trying to resource an additional 6 drivers to run the services via Ecml?

Companies now do not just have a load of drivers sat doing nothing.

Maybe there was some drivers who could of worked them tonight but it may then of affected some working they were meant to do tomorrow.

As people have mentioned normal
Diverts via east coast are planned weeks in advance.

Knowing people who work in control rooms for various TOCs and FOCs I know they try there bloody hardest in all Situations to run a service. And by cancelling they will take that as a failure.

 

[Some guy]

Avanti terminate everything at Preston when something happens as it’s operationally convenient.

It’s a shame that they don’t realise that they’re leaving half the WCML with a shambolic service when they can go up to Carlisle.

Well Carlisle doesn’t have any drivers and train managers based there for TPE or for Avanti so when disruption is happening it makes sense for them to stay at their depot so it saves paying for taxis

 

[Kite159]

Even if Avanti ran an hourly Pendo from Preston to Carlisle (with the Edinburgh trains terminating at Preston along with TPE) it would have been better for the passengers for the stations between Preston & Carlisle. Surely Carlisle could take an hourly Pendo to come in & out?

Also would have decreased the number of replacement buses, but I guess doing something like that would be putting the passengers first, and you can't have that

I wondered why I saw the empties of the sleeper rolling into Euston around 19:50, if they are being used as a bed for the night.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Well Carlisle doesn’t have any drivers and train managers based there for TPE or for Avanti so when disruption is happening it makes sense for them to stay at their depot so it saves paying for taxis

If the service went up to Carlisle, they could perhaps use the drivers / TMs that have gone up with them?

Most crews will work an in and out to/from Preston anyway iirc - surely they can stay on the same service as it is about half the distance?

And even if they did have to use taxis - I’d much rather they didn’t cut off the entire northern WCML for the sake of saving a few hundred £.

Preston is operationally easy to terminate at - and the business decisions have been taken not to run further. I’ve just switched to the bus rather than rail for my commute between Lancaster and Kendal as the railway’s standard response is ‘terminate at Preston’ - which doesn’t help anyone further north!

 

[Ex-controller]

Maybe they are turning them round at Preston because it's more convenient for crews (As I presume Polmadie staff usually work north of Preston)

Is this heat related by any chance?

No. It wasn’t especially warm in Scotland today.

 

[diffident]

"Back in the day", wouldn't BR just press an HST or what-not in place of the sleeper?

 

[Fokx]

1M97 has been stuck at Wamphray (Beattock) for several hours now. Not sure if/when the evacuation took place for pax onboard.

1600 evacuation started
1620 (802214) rescue train headed to Carlisle forming 1T97 to Preston

 

[800001]

Line reopened earlier than planned with all work completed.

 

[hexagon789]

Line reopened earlier than planned with all work completed.

Excellent, that was pretty quick going of Network Rail. They had said about 12 hours for the repairs.

"Back in the day", wouldn't BR just press an HST or what-not in place of the sleeper?

They might have diverted it. One of the three nightly Euston/Glasgow sleepers was booked via the GSW anyway, so route knowledge was there, and they could probably have sourced a 47/4 from somewhere.

I think the 3 Euston/Glasgow sleepers arrangement lasted to about 1990, it was around then when several services were cut such as Euston-Stranraer and Bristol-Scotland.

 

[Class83]

If the service went up to Carlisle, they could perhaps use the drivers / TMs that have gone up with them?

Most crews will work an in and out to/from Preston anyway iirc - surely they can stay on the same service as it is about half the distance?

And even if they did have to use taxis - I’d much rather they didn’t cut off the entire northern WCML for the sake of saving a few hundred £.

Preston is operationally easy to terminate at - and the business decisions have been taken not to run further. I’ve just switched to the bus rather than rail for my commute between Lancaster and Kendal as the railway’s standard response is ‘terminate at Preston’ - which doesn’t help anyone further north!

And this morning more cancellations southbound out of Glasgow on both Avanti and TPE presumably due to stock taking too long to get there. Presumably some Glasgow Crew were trapped south of the incident, if they had taken trains to Carlisle last night then been put up in a reasonable hotel, so they were ready to go the minute the line was cleared this morning more trains could have got to Glasgow to operate southbound this morning. It also might have improved northbound performance, the first arrival at Glasgow Central was 1104. Even if we assume £200/night for the hotel at short notice, 10 staff is going to cost £2000, a lot less than cancelling 5 trains (8 were cancelled, but 3 were sufficiently early I'm not sure the line was clear in time for them to run anyway) paying delay repay and making passengers consider coaches or driving for future travel.

The railway really needs to consider how an operating strategy of 'stop everything at a depot' is not a passenger focused strategy, at the moment the railway needs more passengers who will pay more per journey, and it's hard to give friends and family any advice beyond 'you're better driving'.

 

[Geezertronic]

And this morning more cancellations southbound out of Glasgow on both Avanti and TPE presumably due to stock taking too long to get there. Presumably some Glasgow Crew were trapped south of the incident, if they had taken trains to Carlisle last night then been put up in a reasonable hotel, so they were ready to go the minute the line was cleared this morning more trains could have got to Glasgow to operate southbound this morning. It also might have improved northbound performance, the first arrival at Glasgow Central was 1104. Even if we assume £200/night for the hotel at short notice, 10 staff is going to cost £2000, a lot less than cancelling 5 trains (8 were cancelled, but 3 were sufficiently early I'm not sure the line was clear in time for them to run anyway) paying delay repay and making passengers consider coaches or driving for future travel.

The railway really needs to consider how an operating strategy of 'stop everything at a depot' is not a passenger focused strategy, at the moment the railway needs more passengers who will pay more per journey, and it's hard to give friends and family any advice beyond 'you're better driving'.

You're assuming that staff would have agreed to staying over, probably with no change of clothes/uniform or bathroom equipment etc..., expecting a financial reward for doing so, and had no personal plans (or kid arrangements etc...) for that night

 

[greyman42]

Have the operators ever offered passengers the option of a free hire car in these sort of circumstances?

 

[sonic2009]

Have the operators ever offered passengers the option of a free hire car in these sort of circumstances?

Couldn't imagine that being offered - it would be a non starter because of costs?

 

[philthetube]

And this morning more cancellations southbound out of Glasgow on both Avanti and TPE presumably due to stock taking too long to get there. Presumably some Glasgow Crew were trapped south of the incident, if they had taken trains to Carlisle last night then been put up in a reasonable hotel, so they were ready to go the minute the line was cleared this morning more trains could have got to Glasgow to operate southbound this morning. It also might have improved northbound performance, the first arrival at Glasgow Central was 1104. Even if we assume £200/night for the hotel at short notice, 10 staff is going to cost £2000, a lot less than cancelling 5 trains (8 were cancelled, but 3 were sufficiently early I'm not sure the line was clear in time for them to run anyway) paying delay repay and making passengers consider coaches or driving for future travel.

The railway really needs to consider how an operating strategy of 'stop everything at a depot' is not a passenger focused strategy, at the moment the railway needs more passengers who will pay more per journey, and it's hard to give friends and family any advice beyond 'you're better driving'.

Where would you stable these trains, who would prepare them for service, there are more than 10 staff on a pendalino, though that is not an important consideration.

Why 5 trains and not 8? unless you know a lot more than anyone else I cannot see how you could decide that the other three would not be needed.

 

[800001]

And this morning more cancellations southbound out of Glasgow on both Avanti and TPE presumably due to stock taking too long to get there. Presumably some Glasgow Crew were trapped south of the incident, if they had taken trains to Carlisle last night then been put up in a reasonable hotel, so they were ready to go the minute the line was cleared this morning more trains could have got to Glasgow to operate southbound this morning. It also might have improved northbound performance, the first arrival at Glasgow Central was 1104. Even if we assume £200/night for the hotel at short notice, 10 staff is going to cost £2000, a lot less than cancelling 5 trains (8 were cancelled, but 3 were sufficiently early I'm not sure the line was clear in time for them to run anyway) paying delay repay and making passengers consider coaches or driving for future travel.

The railway really needs to consider how an operating strategy of 'stop everything at a depot' is not a passenger focused strategy, at the moment the railway needs more passengers who will pay more per journey, and it's hard to give friends and family any advice beyond 'you're better driving'.

It’s good coming up with these ideas from an armchair.

I’m sure Avanti have done the best they could.

Could they of done things better? Probably!

Will they learn from this? Hopefully

 

[greyman42]

So what caused the wires to come down in the first place?

 

[Class83]

You're assuming that staff would have agreed to staying over, probably with no change of clothes/uniform or bathroom equipment etc..., expecting a financial reward for doing so, and had no personal plans (or kid arrangements etc...) for that night

A decent hotel generally provides toiletries, spare uniforms could be collected from the Preston depot before heading to Carlisle and it wouldn't be unreasonable for each depot to have a rota of staff who are 'on call' in case of disruption in the same way as doctors, plumbers etc manage to.

Where would you stable these trains, who would prepare them for service, there are more than 10 staff on a pendalino, though that is not an important consideration.

Why 5 trains and not 8? unless you know a lot more than anyone else I cannot see how you could decide that the other three would not be needed.

The line was cleared at around 0600 so the 0428 and 0533 would have likely been cancelled anyway, which was slightly earlier than I thought initially, so 2 out of 8 cancellations would have been unable to depart as they were awaiting confirmation the line was clear.

It’s good coming up with these ideas from an armchair.

I’m sure Avanti have done the best they could.

Could they of done things better? Probably!

Will they learn from this? Hopefully

Having spent a fair bit of effort routing a family member around this disruption yesterday, as I'm the person they think uses and knows about trains a fair bit, followed by them experiencing overcrowding due to multiple cancellations the railway really does need to learn from this, though cancellations to suit the operator and not the passenger occur so often it's hard to believe much learning has occured. Unfortunately my advice to my family member was to drive next time.