Watford Blockades

[oversteer]

So for the next three weeks platform 10 at Watford Junction sn't available.

As a result the two peak time trains that serve Bushey / Harrow and Wealdstone both didn't run.

Two other trains have additional stops to cover - except those are already crush loaded on leaving WFJ! 2K55, despite being 12 cars in length, struggled to shut the doors at Bushey and the guard attempted to have the service set down only at Harrow, with predictable results -even more tried to get on at Harrow, and again they couldn't depart until the driver announced on the PA that another service was stood behind at the next signal and just enough got off to shut the doors..

I can't believe this sort of work gets scheduled for the three weeks before Christmas, surely things are busy these next few weeks

 

[Clip]

I can't believe this sort of work gets scheduled for the three weeks before Christmas, surely things are busy these next few weeks

Didnt they want a full closure over the summer to sort it but people said no?

Their own fault then. The work simply has to be done.

 

[Antman]

Didnt they want a full closure over the summer to sort it but people said no?

Their own fault then. The work simply has to be done.

Who are the 'people' that said no and now it's their fault?

Obviously nobody is going to be happy about it whenever it is done.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't believe this sort of work gets scheduled for the three weeks before Christmas, surely things are busy these next few weeks

This week is busy, next week less so, and the week after gets progressively more quiet, particularly at the end of the week.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Network Rail initially suggested closing the whole of the southern West Coast Main Line for a month in August and every single stakeholder said it was the most retarded idea that they'd ever heard. Because, well, it was the most retarded idea that anyone had ever heard. The loudest opponent was actually Virgin Trains, IIRC.

The problem is that the two Watford Junction to Euston extras are not running, with the stops at Bushey being covered with other trains. London Midland, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the ideal train to cover Bushey and Harrow is the 0721 MKC-EUS, which is usually full and standing in eight of the twelve coaches at Apsley and Kings Langley, even before you reach the hoardes at Watford Junction. Needless to say it lost 12 minutes at Bushey because the train was so overcrowded that the doors wouldn't close.

The work needs to be scheduled now because it needs to be completed before the Christmas blockade. The problem, quite simply, is that the control staff at London Midland couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map.

Anyone with half a brain could have seen that stopping one of the busiest of all the morning peak trains at Bushey was a truly exceptionally dumb idea. Better choices would have been the 0739 Bletchley-Euston (which is a little bit quieter as it skips Tring, Apsley and Kings Langley) or the 0804 Tring-Euston, which usually has room on board even after Harrow.

 

[Tibbs]

So glad I'm not doing that commute right now...

I'd be on the Overground for the next few weeks if I were - at least you get a (sideways facing) seat.

 

[Clip]

Who are the 'people' that said no and now it's their fault?

Obviously nobody is going to be happy about it whenever it is done.

You;re right - you cant please everyone

Network Rail initially suggested closing the whole of the southern West Coast Main Line for a month in August and every single stakeholder said it was the most retarded idea that they'd ever heard. Because, well, it was the most retarded idea that anyone had ever heard. The loudest opponent was actually Virgin Trains, IIRC.

Thats your opinion and its not one I share. Getting the work done in one fell swoop at a quieter time like August naturally is - with the summer holidays and that - seems a great Idea.

You may or may not remember the Thameslink blockade which went swimmingly but was for a bit longer. Yes people journies were disrupted but it meant they could get the work done in one hit. Its how these things should be done.

 

[carriageline]

Completely agree. Look at the increased rate of failures in the area. That is what happens when your working alongside ageing equipment, that's easily disturbed.

Plus, I imagine the work could of been done quicker in one long blockage, that in their competitive short blockages


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PeterY]

So glad I'm not doing that commute right now...

I'd be on the Overground for the next few weeks if I were - at least you get a (sideways facing) seat.

Glad I don't commute anymore.

If I need to go to London, I think a use the Met line. Maybe slower and if I'm lucky I may even get a facing seat.

It'd be nice if you could be given the option of using LM tickets via the Met especially when trains are crush loaded. Can't wait for the schools to break up it'll be even worse on LM.

 

[The Planner]

Network Rail initially suggested closing the whole of the southern West Coast Main Line for a month in August and every single stakeholder said it was the most retarded idea that they'd ever heard. Because, well, it was the most retarded idea that anyone had ever heard. The loudest opponent was actually Virgin Trains, IIRC.

Except thats not strictly true, Virgin bought into it at the start and they would have been handsomely rewarded in schedule 4 payments. After further deliberations they decided that the associated loss in revenue, impact on reputation and loss in future business they decided against it. LM didnt say no at the start either.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Completely agree. Look at the increased rate of failures in the area. That is what happens when your working alongside ageing equipment, that's easily disturbed.

Plus, I imagine the work could of been done quicker in one long blockage, that in their competitive short blockages


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There was never one big block - the 16 day blockade was one of a number of blocks. The current strategy uses 11 less days of engineering and 4 of the disrupted days are two-track railway until 16.00 so most trains still run anyway.

 

[Class 170101]

Can any of those trains be strengthened to 12 carriages?

There some Class 350/3s looking for work for a week or so.

 

[plastictaffy]

So for the next three weeks platform 10 at Watford Junction sn't available.

As a result the two peak time trains that serve Bushey / Harrow and Wealdstone both didn't run.

Two other trains have additional stops to cover - except those are already crush loaded on leaving WFJ! 2K55, despite being 12 cars in length, struggled to shut the doors at Bushey and the guard attempted to have the service set down only at Harrow, with predictable results -even more tried to get on at Harrow, and again they couldn't depart until the driver announced on the PA that another service was stood behind at the next signal and just enough got off to shut the doors.

I can't believe this sort of work gets scheduled for the three weeks before Christmas, surely things are busy these next few weeks

He certainly did try to get it for set-down only. LM did their usual and refused to play ball, so he did his best. I trained with that Guard, and he's very conscientious - wouldn't make that decision unless he thought it was dangerous. It's ridiculous, tbh, there's a very good Overground and Bakerloo line service running from Harrow. But, of course, the commuters want a "fast" train to Euston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can any of those trains be strengthened to 12 carriages?

There some Class 350/3s looking for work for a week or so.

Most of the trains that are deemed to need 12 cars already are. Let's not forget that there are 2 platforms at Euston that won't accept 12 cars, and the arrival frequency in the mornings is so intense, that the capacity simply isn't there. Most of the Mark 3's are used on the Crewe's, bar the two at Camden. There are also going to be 2 more 12 car trains leaving Northampton as "Cobblers" in the new timetable, so that ties up 6 units.

 

[Class 170101]

Most of the trains that are deemed to need 12 cars already are. Let's not forget that there are 2 platforms at Euston that won't accept 12 cars, and the arrival frequency in the mornings is so intense, that the capacity simply isn't there. Most of the Mark 3's are used on the Crewe's, bar the two at Camden. There are also going to be 2 more 12 car trains leaving Northampton as "Cobblers" in the new timetable, so that ties up 6 units.

I didn't know some of the Euston platforms were sub 12 cars.

I was only thinking in terms of relieving the capacity gap caused by the cancellation of the Watford shorts anyway by using the Class 350/3s currently in storage.

 

[Nym]

The funny thing is for the LM starters, there isn't actually any real reason why the 0755 couldn't run, it runs from platform 9 on a lot of days anyway and could sit in 9 in time to clear the 0753 TRI for how it's scheduled anyway. The 0815 is usually nice and early getting up to Watford Jcn, last I checked theres a siding just north of Watford Tunnels?

 

[plastictaffy]

I didn't know some of the Euston platforms were sub 12 cars.

They would be 8 and 9. 8 car platforms, they are. 17 is a bit of an oddity, too. With that one, you can take a dozen in there, but you must release the left side in direction of travel, whereas with an 8 or a 4, you would release the right side. However if a dozen is sent into 17, it locks eighteen out as it fouls the points to access it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 0815 is usually nice and early getting up to Watford Jcn, last I checked theres a siding just north of Watford Tunnels?

The 0815 is an odd one. It's booked for Willesden LL lines, but rarely runs that way. It comes in empty from Euston as 3J08.

The siding you speak of is the Up Langley loop. There is no way to access it from the Down line at all. At that time of day, there is sometimes a freight in there, too.

 

[Nym]

The 0815 is an odd one. It's booked for Willesden LL lines, but rarely runs that way. It comes in empty from Euston as 3J08.

The siding you speak of is the Up Langley loop. There is no way to access it from the Down line at all. At that time of day, there is sometimes a freight in there, too.

Ah...

Cheers

 

[infobleep]

He certainly did try to get it for set-down only. LM did their usual and refused to play ball, so he did his best. I trained with that Guard, and he's very conscientious - wouldn't make that decision unless he thought it was dangerous. It's ridiculous, tbh, there's a very good Overground and Bakerloo line service running from Harrow. But, of course, the commuters want a "fast" train to Euston.

It takes about 14 minutes to Euston on a fast train and about 30 minutes on the slow Overground so no wonder people would rather travel on the fast services. Also the fast services have loos. On top of that if your not expecting to catch an Overground service, you'd have to factor in the waiting. Of course comnuters factor that in with all London Midland services from Harrow and Wealdstone anyway.

When I use to travel to Harrow from Euston, if the 8.24 to Milton Keynes was cancelled or ran but had the Harrow stop cancelled and the same occurred to the 8.34 to Tring, I could automatically claim under delay repay as the 8.37 Overground service got me into Harrow precisely 30 minutes after the 8.24 should have done!

 

[Sanatogen]

They would be 8 and 9. 8 car platforms, they are. 17 is a bit of an oddity, too. With that one, you can take a dozen in there, but you must release the left side in direction of travel, whereas with an 8 or a 4, you would release the right side. However if a dozen is sent into 17, it locks eighteen out as it fouls the points to access it.

9 and 10

P11 can only take 12 car 321's due to local instructions.

 

[infobleep]

9 and 10

P11 can only take 12 car 321's due to local instructions.

What do you mean by local instructions? Are they doing something that otherwise would not be allowed?

 

[LowLevel]

Local instructions either permit something not routinely permitted by the rules with safeguards (example, a passenger train might be able to use shunt signals during equipment failure with confirmation of authority to proceed by the signaller) or restricts something normally permitted (ie like classes of traction into certain platforms in certain circumstances). They can also tell you how to perform operational duties in different locations.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Thats your opinion and its not one I share. Getting the work done in one fell swoop at a quieter time like August naturally is - with the summer holidays and that - seems a great Idea.

The people who have to get to work didn't think so. The idea of a bustitution from Milton Keynes or Northampton for six weeks was an idiotic idea, although I know many in the industry don't really care too much about the needs of the self-loading freight. The bustitutions that did run on the weekends in August were bad enough, with long and pointless waits at Stanmore tube for buses that were slower than the bloomin' Green Line from Hemel. There's also the issue of whether the tube services could cope with the additional passengers- my train to work must have 1000 people on it when it gets to Euston.

It seemed entirely beyond the wit of London Midland to run an RRB from Hemel to St Albans, which would have knocked an hour off the journey into London compared to going via Stanmore.

Except thats not strictly true, Virgin bought into it at the start and they would have been handsomely rewarded in schedule 4 payments. After further deliberations they decided that the associated loss in revenue, impact on reputation and loss in future business they decided against it. LM didnt say no at the start either.

None of them were initially against it, but Virgin decided that they make a lot of money from leisure passengers in August and didn't want the huge reputational damage. London Midland were a bit more happy to stack up the schedule 4 payments and sod the passengers who pay a fortune to get to work, as we saw with the weekend blockades and the disaster zone that was the Hemel-Stanmore RRB service.

The funny thing is for the LM starters, there isn't actually any real reason why the 0755 couldn't run, it runs from platform 9 on a lot of days anyway and could sit in 9 in time to clear the 0753 TRI for how it's scheduled anyway. The 0815 is usually nice and early getting up to Watford Jcn, last I checked theres a siding just north of Watford Tunnels?

The 0815 is often late into Watford and they turn it round in platform 9, so there's no reason why they couldn't still run it, although it does usually hold up the 0804 Tring-Euston when it happens. The up Langley loop isn't available as it has a Freightliner in it from 0810-0840.

They would be 8 and 9. 8 car platforms, they are. 17 is a bit of an oddity, too. With that one, you can take a dozen in there, but you must release the left side in direction of travel, whereas with an 8 or a 4, you would release the right side. However if a dozen is sent into 17, it locks eighteen out as it fouls the points to access it.

I didn't know the last bit, but it makes sense. Although it shouldn't matter too much if you block in the 0721 MKC-EUS after arrival, seeing as that train goes off to Camden afterwards and I've seen them do it when there's disruption.

 

[Sanatogen]

What do you mean by local instructions? Are they doing something that otherwise would not be allowed?

12 car 350's can't use p11 as driver can't see the signal when departing, there's been talk of moving the signal for years but as yet nothing has been done.

There's a similar issue with p18, 12 cars can only use 18 as long as they aren't going to split.

 

[Kristofferson]

The problem is that the two Watford Junction to Euston extras are not running, with the stops at Bushey being covered with other trains. London Midland, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the ideal train to cover Bushey and Harrow is the 0721 MKC-EUS, which is usually full and standing in eight of the twelve coaches at Apsley and Kings Langley, even before you reach the hoardes at Watford Junction. Needless to say it lost 12 minutes at Bushey because the train was so overcrowded that the doors wouldn't close.

I wondered why the 0816 KGL-EUS was busier than usual at WFJ and HRW today. Two previous trains not running and the 0801 KGL-EUS being crush loaded explain the additional hordes on the platforms at Watford and Harrow!

 

[plastictaffy]

9 and 10

P11 can only take 12 car 321's due to local instructions.

Oh my. That's my core route.

Gonna check my sectional appendix about the P11 thing. I'm sure I've taken a dozen in there.

 

[Clip]

The people who have to get to work didn't think so. The idea of a bustitution from Milton Keynes or Northampton for six weeks was an idiotic idea, although I know many in the industry don't really care too much about the needs of the self-loading freight. .

Nobody likes disruption to their journeys - I don't think anyone ever has said they did. What I am saying is that big blockades to get the work done are much better than doing it piecemeal where the chances of it not being handed back on time increase from it being just the one day following the work to many many days following the work.

The fact that LM are making a balls up of the RRB provision and alternatives week after week kind of helps the cause for long closures of big projects

 

[Taunton]

Nobody likes disruption to their journeys - I don't think anyone ever has said they did. What I am saying is that big blockades to get the work done are much better

Am I alone in noticing that blockades are just getting longer and longer, and the work actually delivered by them less and less. The Watford one which was, essentially, to replace a set of crossovers looked just like the sort of thing that the old gangers at Taunton, long ago, would have just quietly delivered over a few weeks without anyone noticing too much, especially with four tracks available.

 

[carriageline]

They did more than the crossover I think. They relayed a lot of track, signalling work and overhead work

 

[Mag_seven]

It seemed entirely beyond the wit of London Midland to run an RRB from Hemel to St Albans, which would have knocked an hour off the journey into London compared to going via Stanmore.

Also the Jubilee line is closed between Finchley Rd and Waterloo on the days in question. So much for joined up thinking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tickets to London Terminals are only valid for exit at Euston Square, so that shouldn't make an issue