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waterloo

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Tom

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It's going towards some much needed capacity out of Waterloo onto the South Western territory. :)
 

NSEFAN

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Will they have to alter the layout at international junction?

I THINK that the eurostar platforms are only linked to the windsor lines?
 
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Tom

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The plan is to move Windsor and Reading line services into Waterloo International hence releasing capacity for the 'mainline' services - as they would be able to use platforms 5 through 19 at Waterloo, rather than 5 through 15 at present.
 

960012

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Will they have to alter the layout at international junction?

I THINK that the eurostar platforms are only linked to the windsor lines?

Yes they are linked to just the windsor lines but this wouldnt be a problem as its only reading and windsor services going from there, i fink its a great idea, amd all those sad people who are sad enough to want to bash each platform will now be able to for alot cheaper than atm.
 

LucaZone

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Of course they knew - which is why London St Pancras was in London Continental Railways ownership from privatisation rather than Midland Mainline/Railtrack.
Privatisation came in 1996, but Waterloo Intl. was built in 1993/4 and was in planning long before. Doubtful they intended to end up moving to StP that long ago.

Initial plans for an International london Station were for Kings Cross....not St Pancras. The only reason St pancras was eventually chosen because it was already in a poor state and MML's services were tiny compared to all other London Termini capable of recieving Eurostar buisness.
 

Nick W

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Privatisation came in 1996, but Waterloo Intl. was built in 1993/4 and was in planning long before. Doubtful they intended to end up moving to StP that long ago.

Oh I bet drawings for all the options existing long before then.

Personally it seems to me like the whole CTRL is a waste of money as I'm not going to pay extra for a ground level aeroplane and I won't pay more then 20p per person [*] extra to use a Kent high speed domestic service.

The next question is, why are Eurostar p!ssing around trying to make record times when the overall channel tunnel and its services are loss making?


* - We often drive to kent and pay £1 for the whole car full of 4 or 5 people to use the M25 instead of going via London. The 2 hours journey time, 2 hours 30 mins at worse will still be more competitive than train.
 

Bonemaster

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Needs a rather major track redesign before it can be used, although who knows when that will happen, my moneys on it being a white elephant for a while
 

kestrel

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Privatisation came in 1996, but Waterloo Intl. was built in 1993/4 and was in planning long before. Doubtful they intended to end up moving to StP that long ago.

Initial plans for an International london Station were for Kings Cross....not St Pancras. The only reason St pancras was eventually chosen because it was already in a poor state and MML's services were tiny compared to all other London Termini capable of recieving Eurostar buisness.

St Pancras was always planned for the international station, HEx was also going to go there to link up with it but with no spare capacity on the NLL, and Acton bank being non electrified the HEx op'was abandoned in favour of a joint effort with FGW hence Connect;)(the HEx op' was going to be a semi fast stopping at hayes and ealing broadway to st pancras)

There was and still is no spare capacity at KX to faciltate the Eurostar op', but there was capacity at St pancras and more importantly space;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh I bet drawings for all the options existing long before then.

Personally it seems to me like the whole CTRL is a waste of money as I'm not going to pay extra for a ground level aeroplane and I won't pay more then 20p per person [*] extra to use a Kent high speed domestic service.

The next question is, why are Eurostar p!ssing around trying to make record times when the overall channel tunnel and its services are loss making?


* - We often drive to kent and pay £1 for the whole car full of 4 or 5 people to use the M25 instead of going via London. The 2 hours journey time, 2 hours 30 mins at worse will still be more competitive than train.


The M-F market on Eurostar is business pax, therefore much more convenient for them as the eurostar is city centre to city centre without all the agro of air travel, also means they can work during the whole transit time whereas if they fky they only get an hour to work if that, time is money to businessmen.

Aren't Eurostar and Eurotunnel different companies? with 2 very different markets
 

robvulpes

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Needs a rather major track redesign before it can be used, although who knows when that will happen, my moneys on it being a white elephant for a while

And they've got to do major things at the concourse end, to cope with streams of commuters. At present everyone has to go down to the basement, and back up again!
 

Metroland

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y are Eurostar p!ssing around trying to make record times when the overall channel tunnel and its services are loss making?

Because it's good publicity, an area where the other side keeps shooting itself in the foot what with airport delays..

As for a waste of money, it's justified by billions of pounds worth of redevelopment and enhancing the economies of East Kent towns. In fact, when they built the railways, the benefits generated for the country were at least 4 times more than all the money the private investors put in.

Eurostar is loss making at the moment, just, but it's only a matter of time before short flights are banned to save precious fuel and the environment, and at that point it will come into it's own.
 

W14Fishbourne

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I wasn't aware that DfT had made a final decision on the future of WATInt. Can those who think otherwise please quote a source?
 

Nick W

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The M-F market on Eurostar is business pax, therefore much more convenient for them as the eurostar is city centre to city centre without all the agro of air travel, also means they can work during the whole transit time whereas if they fky they only get an hour to work if that, time is money to businessmen.
It's a shame that there isn't some sort of service in competition with the ryanair planes i'd normally use.

Aren't Eurostar and Eurotunnel different companies? with 2 very different markets
Very true, but then if BAA or whoever now owns airports was in massive debt and loss making I think they'd be outrage that air travel could be so cheap.

Because it's good publicity, an area where the other side keeps shooting itself in the foot what with airport delays..
I'm glad the air companies aren't still flying concordes around for publicity.

As for a waste of money, it's justified by billions of pounds worth of redevelopment and enhancing the economies of East Kent towns. In fact, when they built the railways, the benefits generated for the country were at least 4 times more than all the money the private investors put in.
The kent towns that are losing their ashford international to Brussles service?

Eurostar is loss making at the moment, just, but it's only a matter of time before short flights are banned to save precious fuel and the environment, and at that point it will come into it's own.
High speed rail would have to be banned for the same reasons though international sleepers would flourish.

Having said that nuclear power reverses are good for the French, but transport and disposal is still using fossil fuels.
 

Metroland

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High speed rail would have to be banned for the same reasons though international sleepers would flourish.

No not really, the TGV gets over 500mpg (eqv) per passenger fully loaded and is quite capable of being powered by numerous sustainable sources of energy - which isn't the case for aircraft. For example the much cited use of biofuels is a non starter, with pasta strikes Italy and riots in south America over wheat being converted to biofuel. It can take up to 4000 litres of water to make 1 litre of the stuff, meaning a Boeing 747-400 needs up to 867 million gallons of water to make the fuel to fill it's tanks in a world which is becoming increasingly water stressed.

Railways are relatively low impact, even on land use. For example railways in Belgium use 900 hectares less than airports and 41 times less space than the roads. [ source http://www.b-rail.be/corp/E/group/environment/advantages/space/index.php ]

The previous Eurostar run generated day long headlines on a positive note for the railways, an industry which is used to a lot of unfair negativity.

TBH Nick, I dunno why you bother with these forums, you seem to be the self appointed expert on trashing anything the railways do. But if you are going to trash them, then at least do your homework.
 

Bonemaster

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Ryanair my foot, you have been duped, by the time that you add in the cost of getting to the airport, airport tax, and the getting from the runway with a cattle grid across it in some farmers field the Eurostar has got you there cheaper and quicker, there are some journeys where Ryanair, BMIbaby or Easyjet pays but there are as many that dont.

Eurostar is and always has been a loss making service and profits not expected now until 2010, the way the infrastructure was paid for was flawed, and as we all know its all false debt anyways because if any of the Channel tunnel companies goes bankrupt the taxpayers, of Britain, France and Belgium will bail them out.

Services will only become more after the next government whack environmental taxes on routes that compete with railways, but by that time the economy would most likely of contracted, rail demand recessed, and those who use the short haul flights have businesses continuing to pick up the bill.
 

Nick W

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I like to have no bias on different methods of transport, but it is stupid to play the environmental game. The airline industry is striving to invest in even more efficient planes, the very latest lightweight polymer materials and higher capacity planes.

My local train company is cleverly advertising that if i can fit 4 or 5 people into a car i'm more environmental than apparently efficient than the 7 coach intercity services with the prized mark 3 stock. We are also stabbed in the back by voyagers which are been proven to be less environmental than cars in many cases.
How can we justify charging environmental taxes on planes on routes we can't even be bothered to electrify?

To begin with I was a great supporter of the CTRL. I was expecting a new mainline that could take so much stress off existing lines. Now we're getting a new "mainline" that will run a pityful amount of trains. The Javelins will not come for years, and Maidstone, right next to the line, will not have a branch off for trains from canterbury, dover and folkstone via ashford to serve Maidstone. Serving stratford seemed so much sense for interchange with the GEML to Kent, which could half the journey time for East Anglia to Kent journeys. A journey I do often. Yet they built a seperate station in stratford, reversing the trend of the central line, nll and dlr....

Finally the whole point of st pancras was to allow services to use the mainlines north of london, avoiding the Kenny O bottleneck. Yet so far there are no promises of services that will do this. I find it disgraceful that so much money was invested for the sole purpose of shaving about 20 minutes off journeys, when the huge amount of money could have been invested throughout england on lines used by so many more people. A new tube line would probably have helped the economy more, as would investment throughout the network on necessary schemes.

It's not too late to change UK policy but until then the CTRL is a huge white elephant.
 

me123

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Fair enough, but at least now the option is in place to, one day, extend dervices up the ECMl, WCML, and MML. In the future, the new services will prove beneficial and are at least definately planned and almost certain to happen.

And, the most important in my mind, the UK now has a high speed rail line. This may not be important just now, but posessing this line could be the start of a high speed IC rail network.

Of course, these are all my views and, as I know vey little about the project compared to some others, I may not be taking all factors into account.
 

Metroland

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I like to have no bias on different methods of transport, but it is stupid to play the environmental game. The airline industry is striving to invest in even more efficient planes, the very latest lightweight polymer materials and higher capacity planes.

My local train company is cleverly advertising that if i can fit 4 or 5 people into a car i'm more environmental than apparently efficient than the 7 coach intercity services with the prized mark 3 stock. We are also stabbed in the back by voyagers which are been proven to be less environmental than cars in many cases.
How can we justify charging environmental taxes on planes on routes we can't even be bothered to electrify?

To begin with I was a great supporter of the CTRL. I was expecting a new mainline that could take so much stress off existing lines. Now we're getting a new "mainline" that will run a pityful amount of trains. The Javelins will not come for years, and Maidstone, right next to the line, will not have a branch off for trains from canterbury, dover and folkstone via ashford to serve Maidstone. Serving stratford seemed so much sense for interchange with the GEML to Kent, which could half the journey time for East Anglia to Kent journeys. A journey I do often. Yet they built a seperate station in stratford, reversing the trend of the central line, nll and dlr....

Finally the whole point of st pancras was to allow services to use the mainlines north of london, avoiding the Kenny O bottleneck. Yet so far there are no promises of services that will do this. I find it disgraceful that so much money was invested for the sole purpose of shaving about 20 minutes off journeys, when the huge amount of money could have been invested throughout england on lines used by so many more people. A new tube line would probably have helped the economy more, as would investment throughout the network on necessary schemes.

It's not too late to change UK policy but until then the CTRL is a huge white elephant.

For the last time it is NOT JUST about saving 20 minutes off a journey, it is about additional high quality rail capacity which hasn’t been added in the south east since Victorian times. There are side benefits as a catalyst for billions of pounds worth of new office and residential benefits en route in some of the most depressed areas of England. ANY new transport capacity costs £billions at current prices, new lanes for the M6 will be costing £60 million per mile, more than CTRL stage one.

The use of St Pancras makes it much easier for passengers to get to from the other main lines extending from London. Those on the East and outer sides can use Ebbsfleet, so I don't think I buy your argument about it benefits relatively few.


Now more faulty logic you have expressed:

One of the chief criticisms of more environmentally friendly planes is the low cost airlines merely reduce ticket prices, inducing demand, thereby creating more pollution. In economic terms this is called ‘Jevon’s paradox’. The airlines are the fastest growing emitter of greenhouses gases, with no fossil fuel substitute on the horizon and 27 times more damaging per passenger than Eurostar. We need to break free from fossil fuels altogether, not creating market conditions which use more! Clearly planes are the 'only game in town' which is comes to journeys over 500 miles and the main player over 300 miles. But 45% flights are under 400 miles, and some the the busiest routes of of London airports are to places like Edinburgh, Paris and Amsterdam which compete directly with rail. Sure we could expand Heathrow, and add yet more lanes to the supporting transport infrastructure at cost to the tax payer, but currently the only other solution is to reduce journeys altogether OR add additional rail capacity.

Next, no train company would advertise to use cars because 1) it reduces business for them 2) it creates additional pollution. The train will run anyway. 3) Reduces load factor and all train company stats are based on a relatively low load of 35%., the mean average throughout the day.

The CTRL is not a white elephant, with an increasing number of passengers using its services. It is badly need additional rail capacity is a very overcrowded portion of this country. One of the chief reasons we don’t get improved public transport in this country is even the people that are supposed to be informed think up just about every reason possible on why it shouldn’t be. What a short sighted, negative, loser country we are if that's our attitudes to one of the greatest engineering feats for the last 100 years. This is not about an anti air or road argument, this just happens to be one of those flows that rail does rather well, and should be supported by all because there is currently no other plan B.
 
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