Waterloo to Exeter replacement trains.

[SJDCornwall]

As the class 159 DMU trains are well on the way to becoming life expired what will the likely outcome be for a replacement and possible infrastructure improvements.
My thought is Bimode type train with extending the 3rd rail to Salisbury. Also as a fill in extend the 3rd rail to Southampton and Eastleigh via Romsey.
Electrify from Bristol to Salisbury using 25KV OLE. GWR obtain duel voltage duel pickup trains to enable Cardiff Portsmouth trains to be electric.

 

[greatvoyager]

As the class 159 DMU trains are well on the way to becoming life expired what will the likely outcome be for a replacement and possible infrastructure improvements.
My thought is Bimode type train with extending the 3rd rail to Salisbury. Also as a fill in extend the 3rd rail to Southampton and Eastleigh via Romsey.
Electrify from Bristol to Salisbury using 25KV OLE. GWR obtain duel voltage duel pickup trains to enable Cardiff Portsmouth trains to be electric.

Given how recently the 159s received modifications, I expect they’ve still got a few years yet.
I would support the idea of the 350/2 units having a conversion for this purpose, as they would compliment the current Desiro fleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

The third rail won’t be extended towards Salisbury, it’s been explained in numerous previous threads. As said, there are no current published intentions to replace the 158/9 fleet.

 

[SJDCornwall]

The 159s may have a few years left as yet, however given the time that procurement takes plus other factors such as SERUGs plans which hopefully will mean some more double track I would like to think that future proofing is being considered. As Network rail have recently published a document laying out their future plans for decarbonising their network, I would think that the easiest way is 3rd railing the Southampton Basingstoke Salisbury triangle of lines to eliminate most regular diesel workings out of heavily populated areas. Provide Waterloo Exeter services with Bimode EMUs which can run on 3rd rail to Salisbury then Diesel to Exeter. Waterloo Salisbury terminators could then be straight EMU,s. Also as I mentioned in my first post electrify down from Bristol area using 25KV OHLE with the 2 systems changing over at Salisbury. This means more diesel workings can be eliminated through large towns and cities. Whilst I am aware of the shortcomings of DC traction versus 25KV AC traction, priority must be given to electrifying non electric lines before doing away with the old Southern region 3rd rail system. Therefore some small electrification schemes such as this should be used to quickly eliminate diesel workings. I personally feel it will be many years before Network rail are in a position to change over the Southern DC 3rd rail to 25KV OHLE.

 

[Kilopylae]

The 159s are fine. If they're going to start making big infrastructure improvements to the Waterloo–Exeter line it should be finally constructing a passing loop at Whimple, not wasting money laying a third rail to Salisbury.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 159s may have a few years left as yet, however given the time that procurement takes plus other factors such as SERUGs plans which hopefully will mean some more double track I would like to think that future proofing is being considered. As Network rail have recently published a document laying out their future plans for decarbonising their network, I would think that the easiest way is 3rd railing the Southampton Basingstoke Salisbury triangle of lines to eliminate most regular diesel workings out of heavily populated areas. Provide Waterloo Exeter services with Bimode EMUs which can run on 3rd rail to Salisbury then Diesel to Exeter. Waterloo Salisbury terminators could then be straight EMU,s. Also as I mentioned in my first post electrify down from Bristol area using 25KV OHLE with the 2 systems changing over at Salisbury. This means more diesel workings can be eliminated through large towns and cities. Whilst I am aware of the shortcomings of DC traction versus 25KV AC traction, priority must be given to electrifying non electric lines before doing away with the old Southern region 3rd rail system. Therefore some small electrification schemes such as this should be used to quickly eliminate diesel workings. I personally feel it will be many years before Network rail are in a position to change over the Southern DC 3rd rail to 25KV OHLE.

They still won’t be extending the third rail to Salisbury.

 

[SJDCornwall]

The 159s are fine. If they're going to start making big infrastructure improvements to the Waterloo–Exeter line it should be finally constructing a passing loop at Whimple, not wasting money laying a third rail to Salisbury.

They may be fine at the moment but they are nearly 28 years old. You are quite right about a passing loop at Whimple, please look at the Salisbury Exeter rail users group reports as this is one of their wishes however they also point out the age of the stock. They also would like more double track beside Whimple, an asperation I would like to see and they also do mention about 3rd rail to Salisbury. Please read the report it does give some good points.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

The third rail won’t be extended towards Salisbury, it’s been explained in numerous previous threads. As said, there are no current published intentions to replace the 158/9 fleet.

There is no published reports as yet however please read the Salisbury Exeter rail users group reports, they have some good points in their wish list.

 

[swt_passenger]

They may be fine at the moment but they are nearly 28 years old. You are quite right about a passing loop at Whimple, please look at the Salisbury Exeter rail users group reports as this is one of their wishes however they also point out the age of the stock. They also would like more double track beside Whimple, an asperation I would like to see and they also do mention about 3rd rail to Salisbury. Please read the report it does give some good points.

Rail user groups don’t have any money, as you say it’s effectively little more than a wish list. Better perhaps to read the recent Network Rail West of England line study for a realistic appraisal of what is possible? I think there’s been a thread about it.

 

[SJDCornwall]

Having used the Waterloo Exeter route many times over the years, it is about time this route was brought back properly to life with full double tracking and speeding up of services. I know the arguments about money plus Covid, we need to start radically improving routes like this one, especially as there are approximately 45000 new house building starts planned in for the next 10 years to 2030. The road network does not cope well now. This is the sort of project needed to help restart the economy once Covid is dealt with.

 

[Bald Rick]

They may be fine at the moment but they are nearly 28 years old.

Another decade of life at least.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here’s the thread from August:

Network Rail West of England Line Study 2020

Network Rail have published a study about the WoE line, particularly the Salisbury - Exeter section, which can be seen here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/West-of-England-Study-Continuous-Modular-Strategic-Planning.pdf Whilst it's a long document, the first 9 pages...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[SJDCornwall]

Rail user groups don’t have any money, as you say it’s effectively little more than a wish list. Better perhaps to read the Network Rail West of England line for a realistic appraisal of what is possible? I think there’s been a thread about it.

Again you are right about money, but Network rail have recently had a report commissioned on this line, I cannot remember the title of the report as it uses a lot of manager speak, but it does talk about redoubling and also extending the short loops at Honiton and Gillingham as well. Also mentioned in the report is extending Axminster loop Eastwards for a mile. This is due to the route being used for diversions by GWR IETs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

Here’s the thread from August:

Network Rail West of England Line Study 2020

Network Rail have published a study about the WoE line, particularly the Salisbury - Exeter section, which can be seen here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/West-of-England-Study-Continuous-Modular-Strategic-Planning.pdf Whilst it's a long document, the first 9 pages...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you for that, the 80 page report is worth a read especially on track inprovements

 

[Kilopylae]

Having used the Waterloo Exeter route many times over the years, it is about time this route was brought back properly to life with full double tracking and speeding up of services.

This is just an unrealistic suggestion. We'd all love a double-tracked line west of Salisbury but it's not going to happen. FWIW, I've skim-read your the rail users group report, but these things are rarely better than crayon wishlists (with the honorable exception of the Tarka Rail Association, who have a surprisingly good track record [no pun intended] for making realistic suggestions and getting them acted on - but that's for another thread I suppose!).

The 159s might be old but they're not the oldest trains running in the south-west nor are they not fit for purpose.

 

[Starmill]

Express Sprinters aren't being pushed for replacement anywhere else, indeed they are in fact seen as the future and are replacing other stock still. Why do these younger specimens continue to raise such questions?

 

[big_rig]

Another decade of life at least.

They are also fitting them with scrubbers to reduce the air quality impacts - a trial has been completed this year and hopefully they'll be rolled out further - so as far as diesels go you could make an argument they're not really top of the list to replace urgently through many £ on infrastructure upgrades.

In partnership with Porterbrook and Eminox, South Western Railway has trialled a new system that has real-world reductions in pollution from nitrous oxides (NOx) by over 80% and hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and particulate matter (PM) by over 90%.

South Western Railway completes trial of Class 159 emission reducing technology

South Western Railway has confirmed it has completed a trial of new emission-reducing technology.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[bb21]

This comes up again and again.

Many Salisbury terminators are already extended to Yeovil or Westbury/Bristol in the LTP. Your idea of third rail extension and use of EMUs is not going to work unless you extend further to Yeovil or beyond, or the stations in between lose services/direct journey opportunities.

Not to mention there being no appetite for significant extensions of third rail operation.

So as others already explained, not going to happen.

You need to have much more realistic aspirations.

 

[37424]

Express Sprinters aren't being pushed for replacement anywhere else, indeed they are in fact seen as the future and are replacing other stock still. Why do these younger specimens continue to raise such questions?

We seem to have planned replacements for them on 2 franchises ie EMR and Wales, certainly ought be looking at replacements within the next 5 years, and no doubt Northern will end with more of this junk from Wales or EMR.

 

[xotGD]

Bimode locos with sets of Mark 5s would do the job.

 

[Energy]

Run OHLE on the unelectrified bit and use dual voltage EMUs, the 37 350/2s coming offlease from LNWR in a couple years could probably be fitted with 3rd rail equipment...

Bimode locos with sets of Mark 5s would do the job.

I hope you aren't serious, mk5s get suggested for a lot of things and they really aren't suited to this, OHLE electrification and dual voltage trains would be a better solution, or just carrying on using the 159s for now.

 

[PTR 444]

WofE electrification is a tricky one. Third railing the line is obviously out of the question on safety grounds, so that leaves you with just two practical options: Electrify it with OHLE or leave it unwired and hope that battery technology improves to the point where an 80-odd mile journey can be achieved without recharging. I can't see the latter happening within my lifetime so the best thing to do would be to wire it.

Now for another two choice scenario, you can either wire the line all the way from Basingstoke to Exeter in one go (assuming Bristol to Exeter is done beforehand) or do it in two phases, with the initial one being Basingstoke to Salisbury. The first option would have a much lower BCR due to the longer distance and fewer trains west of Salisbury, so would take much longer to implement if it ever got past the planning stage. Doing SAL-BSK first would have a much better business case and remove a diesel section from the line sooner than if it were wired to Exeter in one go.

But this is the red herring. You now have an isolated section of OHLE inbetween a third rail electrified track and an unelectrified line. The demand for a service along the entire WofE line and onwards to London on the SWML will likely stay in place for some years to come, so you will have to provide a fleet of units that can run on all of third rail, overhead electric AND diesel traction. I do not know of any such unit that exists now and even if one did exist for that line, it would become a microfleet that only exists to provide 1tph between London and Exeter as well as possibly the Romsey Rounder service. If you did not want to do that, there are of course a few alternative scenarios but I doubt they would go down well with anyone:

1: Split the WAT - EXD service at Salisbury and use dual voltage units for the eastern portion, while the western portion remains diesel operated.
2: Use bi-mode trains for the entire route, but they would only run on electric power between BSK and SAL
3: Use bi-mode trains but divert the services to London Paddington east of Basingstoke so they make more use of OHLE

This also ignores the fact that in order to connect the WofE wires to the proposed ones on the Basingstoke - Reading line, you have to encroach on third rail territory. Now we know that OHLE and third rail don't mix so you'll have to go through the mammoth task of converting the lines through BSK and fitting class 444s and 450s with pantographs. That may not be a bad idea in theory but if you're going to wire one of the busiest commuter lines in the country, you might as well do the whole route from Woking to Southampton as well as the Romsey lines and possibly even the routes to Fareham. That's a pretty hefty price to pay.

TLDR, I'd just wire Basingstoke to Exeter in one go. Saves all the hassle.

 

[Starmill]

We seem to have planned replacements for them on 2 franchises ie EMR and Wales, certainly ought be looking at replacements within the next 5 years, and no doubt Northern will end with more of this junk from Wales or EMR.

I accept that their replacement was planned at Transport for Wales, albeit four years in advance and mainly because it improved the value for money of the new order. EMR's train service requirement has increased quite a bit since the franchise award so I don't think it's for sure they won't be finding further use there?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

Bimode locos with sets of Mark 5s would do the job.

A 9 or 10 car set on all services? My goodness. Sounds like an astonishingly large order. Presumably there'd be no further through services to Bristol either.

 

[Bald Rick]

...and hope that battery technology improves to the point where an 80-odd mile journey can be achieved without recharging. I can't see the latter happening within my lifetime...

Better get your life insurance in order; there’s trains in service now with a 50mile range, trains available on the market with a 60+ mile range, and I have no doubt the first 100 mile range battery train will be on the market within 2-3 years. It’s well within existing technical bounds.

...so you will have to provide a fleet of units that can run on all of third rail, overhead electric AND diesel traction. I do not know of any such unit that exists now...

GWR News

News from GWR

www.gwr.com

 

[TSG]

you will have to provide a fleet of units that can run on all of third rail, overhead electric AND diesel traction. I do not know of any such unit that exists now and even if one did exist for that line, it would become a microfleet

AIUI modern traction packages take account of the existence of different electrification systems. AC motors and power electronics mean converting them or providing dual capability is not the big deal it might have been 40 years ago. Given that, a tri-mode that can run just about everywhere isn't that much of a risk to build or own.

Now we know that OHLE and third rail don't mix

I'm not saying it's ideal and you'd want it everywhere, but its doable. Axle counters make it easier than it was.

Major extension of third rail is a non starter, rightly in my opinion. I think the case for OHLE has more to do with de-carbonising freight than it has to do with whisking the commuters of Salisbury along. I believe this was the driver for studies into converting Basingstoke - Southampton container terminal to OHLE and electrifying Basingstoke to Reading a few years ago. Salisbury (or Laverstock at least) would be a crucial diversionary route if this were to be done. I think it still hinges on that.

 

[cactustwirly]

Not going to happen, this service is basically a Salisbury to Waterloo service connected to a Salisbury to Exeter stopping service. The latter probably loses an absolute packet, hidden by cross subsidy if the lucrative SWR commuter routes.
I don't see how any electrification can be justified, when the main London to Exeter line doesn't meet the required BCR.
I don't see why the 159s need to be replaced they are perfectly adequate for the job, although they could do with a thorough refurbishment and some new seats.

 

[Kilopylae]

Using tri-modes between Exeter and Waterloo isn't beyond the pale, but neither should be splitting the WAT—EXD service at Salisbury. Most people taking that all the way are just looking for a cheaper alternative to the Taunton line (I don't imagine journies from places like Gillingham or Axminster represent too much of that line's use) and it's not like it isn't already slow enough that a change at Salisbury would really represent a sea-change.

Automerge...

Not going to happen, this service is basically a Salisbury to Waterloo service connected to a Salisbury to Exeter stopping service.

Agreed, and I think this observation strengthens to case for splitting it; the small volume traffic from East Devon and Dorset that's both [1] heading east of Salisbury and [2] not faster-served by the Taunton line/not just using the Salisbury line for cheaper fares can afford to change at Salisbury imo.

I don't see why the 159s need to be replaced they are perfectly adequate for the job, although they could do with a thorough refurbishment and some new seats.

Agreed, but I think there are more pressing priorities. I've been on them quite a lot recently and they're fairly comfortable even going all the way from Exeter to London.

 

[PTR 444]

Better get your life insurance in order; there’s trains in service now with a 50mile range, trains available on the market with a 60+ mile range, and I have no doubt the first 100 mile range battery train will be on the market within 2-3 years. It’s well within existing technical bounds.

GWR News

News from GWR

www.gwr.com

Thanks for pointing this out. So now that both options could be potentially available, would it be better to use tri-modes OR battery trains on the WofE?

Obviously if the latter came to fruition, there’d be little point in wiring Salisbury to Basingstoke.

 

[tbtc]

"Electrification to Salisbury" seems to crop up on here as often as "moar HSTs for XC" and "My Idea For Future Uses For Some 1970s/1980s Trains".

The way I see it (as someone living in Yorkshire, who was last in Salisbury before the Russians made it trendy), SWT ran a slightly messy service with a slightly messy assortment of two/three coach 158/159s - they were able to expand the fleet a little and use the "weakness" of the relatively short trains (compared to the rest of the SWT fleet) as a "strength" and make various incremental improvements (effectively running a half hourly Yeovil service in the direction of the peak flow, extensions towards Bristol/ Weymouth).

Making the best of the units they inherited was admirable but if you started speccing new stock for the line you probably wouldn't order pure diesels, you probably wouldn't order such short units, you probably wouldn't order 90mph stock and you might not even order 23m long coaches (given that the majority of the SWT/SWR franchise is electric, 100mph, four coach minimum and generally 20m coaches).

It's the difference between Ready Steady Cook (cobble together the best you can with the ingredients that someone else has selected) and Masterchef (chose the ingredients yourself and then cook something with them).

If you assume that electrification isn't going to happen any time soon then you'd have to have a serious discussion about exactly what you are planning.

158/159s are one thing - you can plan to get your hands on cascaded ones from other TOCs to expand operations - but if you are ordering bespoke stock then you need to be sure exactly how many you need and what you plan to provide over the next generation.

• Is this a direct replacement for the existing frequencies?
• Are you planning on expansion?
• Should you replace the short trains and all the required joining/splitting with longer trains that don't require as much portion-work (but are less flexible)?
• Can all of the "local" stations cope with something longer than a 158/159?
• Are you giving up on any ambitions to run a Waterloo - Okehampton - Plymouth service?
• Is Waterloo - Bristol continuing as a long term service?
• Are you focussing on passengers east of Salisbury or longer distance ones (in terms of seating, doors etc)?
• If we are moving away from "private" franchises to a "publicly owned" unified railway then do we forget about using the Salisbury route as a "cheap and cheerful" alternative to the full price B&H route? (i.e. we only plan for intermediate passengers, or are you going to keep some seating to keep competing with the parallel service from London?)
• If we expect passenger numbers to bounce back towards pre-Covid levels then presumably you want to be able to fill platform space at Waterloo etc (and not have it taken up by a locomotive)?

Plus there's the issue of whether ordering something "bespoke" for the Waterloo services means doing the same for the "Salisbury 6" routes or leaving that as a relatively small fleet of pure-DMUs within the SWR operation? Passing it to the GWR operation?

Thankfully the 158/159s don't need replacing right now, so there's plenty time to take a longer term approach to what stock runs the route in the future (rather than being bounced into ordering something off the shelf like 195s). It's going to be over a hundred carriages so you should be able to order something suited to the Salisbury route in the 2030s/2040s/2050s. Maybe by then the technology will have changed a bit from today's developments - remember what people were worrying about the 800/801s five years ago - a lot can change.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don't understand, can't we just build more DMUs? I mean, what's going to replace the other 158s knocking around British railways?

 

[D365]

As the class 159 DMU trains are well on the way to becoming life expired...

Really? The Northern Class 158s (even in their unrefurbished state) are still luxurious units

I don't understand, can't we just build more DMUs? I mean, what's going to replace the other 158s knocking around British railways?

Who is "we"? Who's putting the money towards it - and more importantly, who is prepared to take the risk, when we have no clue as to the post-2040 fate of diesel/petrol vehicles.

 

[Kilopylae]

Really? The Northern Class 158s (even in their unrefurbished state) are still luxurious units

Much the same is true down here in Devon... local news and users' groups were gushing, postively gushing, about the "lovely new trains" on the Tarka Line... hand-me-down 158s from the Bristol area.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/new-trains-air-con-comfortable-3646197 "New trains with air-con and comfortable seats for new hourly service on Tarka Line - It all starts from today!", https://www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/tarka-line-new-trains-and-timetable-1-6427274, etc.

• Should you replace the short trains and all the required joining/splitting with longer trains that don't require as much portion-work (but are less flexible)?
• Are you giving up on any ambitions to run a Waterloo - Okehampton - Plymouth service?

Yes and yes.