Waterloo platform 20 reopens tomorrow

[Muzer]

Just noticed it on the South Today article about the 458s, and had it confirmed by a friend in the know. I'm surprised there isn't already a thread about this...


From the looks of RTT, though, it's just ECS booked to use it.


Anyone know anything more?

 

[455driver]

Just because a platform is open to be used doesnt mean it will be.

I cant see any passenger trains being booked in there until the timetable changes in December, why alter the timetable mid term?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just because a platform is open to be used doesnt mean it will be.

I cant see any passenger trains being booked in there until the timetable changes in December, why alter the timetable mid term?

Well exactly. The good thing is come December it will be ready and waiting for trains. What about the other platforms?

 

[455driver]

There are still access issues to resolve, P20 was easy as it can be accessed from P19 but the others use the undercroft bit which while okay for the odd express train isnt really conducive to successive commuter trains arriving.

The problems are not insurmountable but working out who pays is!

there is also the problem that platform capacity isnt really an issue at Waterloo unless SWT are going to run more trains which they cant as there isnt the line capacity so unless the line capacity is increased (from at least Surbiton) then the other 4 platforms, while a nice to have, are not really needed.

 

[ainsworth74]

there is also the problem that platform capacity isnt really an issue at Waterloo

I would have thought the added flexibility would have been a useful bonus rather than extra capacity? Also I seem to recall if the International platforms are brought into use there is the potential to lengthen the suburban platforms at the opposite end of the station.

 

[glbotu]

What happened to plans to use it as London's centre for sleeper trains? Given (fantasy) proposals in another thread for cross channel sleepers, if combined with Highland and Lowland sleeper and Night Riviera (all of which I assume would fit into the timetable at such a time, could make it quite useful and result in only half of the undercroft area having to lose its "international" setup.

Alternatively, would it be able to be used to relieve Victoria (LCDR), or is there no capacity for that on the Chatham Main Line? My understanding is that Nine Elms Junction - London Waterloo still has some capacity (given the Windsor Reversible and Down Windsor Slow are barely used). If you re-signal so that the DWS and DWF become DW and UW and the WR and UWF become the UC and DC, the trackwork's already there and you have a flying junction already, thus removing any conflicting moves.

 

[swt_passenger]

What happened to plans to use it as London's centre for sleeper trains? Given (fantasy) proposals in another thread for cross channel sleepers, if combined with Highland and Lowland sleeper and Night Riviera (all of which I assume would fit into the timetable at such a time, could make it quite useful and result in only half of the undercroft area having to lose its "international" setup.

Alternatively, would it be able to be used to relieve Victoria (LCDR), or is there no capacity for that on the Chatham Main Line? My understanding is that Nine Elms Junction - London Waterloo still has some capacity (given the Windsor Reversible and Down Windsor Slow are barely used). If you re-signal so that the DWS and DWF become DW and UW and the WR and UWF become the UC and DC, the trackwork's already there and you have a flying junction already, thus removing any conflicting moves.

There were no serious proposals for sleepers, just ideas reported in a rail mag...

Your second proposal removes capacity for SWML services, but the whole international station is already earmarked for SWT services, it is needed so that all platforms in the main station can be lengthened.

But as you go on to say there is no capacity on the Chatham lines anyway. The idea of temporarily running trains into the international terminal during the Thameslink works at London Bridge was seriously looked at, but one of the more recent RUS reports explained why it wasn't actually workable.

 

[glbotu]

There were no serious proposals for sleepers, just ideas reported in a rail mag...

Fair enough. My information on such matters is limited, cheers for clearing that up.

Your second proposal removes capacity for SWML services, but the whole international station is already earmarked for SWT services, it is needed so that all platforms in the main station can be lengthened.

But once 1-4 are lengthened, will they have a use? Are they planning to shift the Windsor Line trains to them permanently, with the SWML Fasts using more of 15-19?

But as you go on to say there is no capacity on the Chatham lines anyway. The idea of temporarily running trains into the international terminal during the Thameslink works at London Bridge was seriously looked at, but one of the more recent RUS reports explained why it wasn't actually workable.

Figures. Any ideas which one, might be an interesting read.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are various solutions that have been mentioned, but I believe the solution to provide 10 car main suburban platforms is fairly straightforward, but to come back and alter for 12 car later needs radical surgery at the throat. It may be more cost effective to go straight to 12 car. But if as is expected they lose the existing P1 and P2, that automatically requires P21 and P22 anyway, just to maintain the current capacity.

Adding the additional pair of platforms allows for additional terminating capacity in the peaks because a number of trains can then be berthed in the station until later in the morning, this avoids them getting in the way running empty in the down direction conflicting with incoming trains.

I'll have search later on the home PC and try and locate what I read about Thameslink diversion possibilities - it was all a bit pessimistic to say the least...

 

[Mojo]

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p368327642/h39272067#h39272067

Looks like some Customers were using pfm 20 earlier today.

 

[swt_passenger]

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p368327642/h39272067#h39272067

Looks like some Customers were using pfm 20 earlier today.

Always amusing to see inside information being contradicted...

Which is not meant to be criticism of the basic point, that there's nothing actually booked in passenger service...

 

[455driver]

Always amusing to see inside information being contradicted...

What inside information has been contradicted?
Or are you just trying to be smart!

Which is not meant to be criticism of the basic point, that there's nothing actually booked in passenger service...

So you are just being smart then, who said there wouldn't be any trains in there?

I tell you what you can post all the info about SWT in future, you can start with why there are going to be problems with the service out of Waterloo tonight, after all your information is obviously better than mine.

 

[Monty]

I imagine today's arrival was more of a symbolic gesture of whats to come in the near future, it happened on a off peak service when demand for capacity at Waterloo isn't at it's greatest. For the time being until the timetable change at least I think you will only actually see it in use during disruption. I went past P20 this afternoon and it was still locked up like Fort Knox.

 

[swt_passenger]

That figures. It keeps the PR pot boiling and coincides with the TV doing the 458/5 stuff yesterday at the depot.

 

[Eagle]

That figures. It keeps the PR pot boiling and coincides with the TV doing the 458/5 stuff yesterday at the depot.

And conveniently distracts from the derailment at Clapham Yard :P

 

[Monty]

And conveniently distracts from the derailment at Clapham Yard :P

I'm surprised there isn't it's own thread about that this evening! Current information being circulated is there could be minor disruption and short formed services until 1830. Personally I think it could be tad more serious than that.

 

[Eagle]

I'm surprised there isn't it's own thread about that this evening!

No need to be surprised.

 

[Goldfish62]

there is also the problem that platform capacity isnt really an issue at Waterloo unless SWT are going to run more trains which they cant as there isnt the line capacity so unless the line capacity is increased (from at least Surbiton) then the other 4 platforms, while a nice to have, are not really needed.

Oh, but they are going to run more trains from May. There will be two extra Reading trains in each peak, plus one or two more that I forget the details of. Platform 20 will be utilised and as has been mentioned in another post the DWS and WR lines are under-utilised (although the arrangements at Queenstown Road eat into that spare capacity).

 

[455driver]

Oh, but they are going to run more trains from May. There will be two extra Reading trains in each peak, plus one or two more that I forget the details of. Platform 20 will be utilised and as has been mentioned in another post the DWS and WR lines are under-utilised (although the arrangements at Queenstown Road eat into that spare capacity).

The DWS joins with the DWF near the flyover before Queenstown Road so not really much use and if they try and use the WR in the down direction then it causes loads of problems when the train needs to cross over onto the DWF as it has to cross the up line at Queenstown Road blocking all those lines. The WR is only really useful in the up direction.

 

[jrhilton]

there is also the problem that platform capacity isnt really an issue at Waterloo..................while a nice to have, are not really needed.

In fairness trains waiting outside Waterloo in the morning for a platform, or trundling along between Vauxhall and Waterloo is a very common occurrence. I would argue one of those two is an almost daily occurrence on the train I catch.

It doesn't seem to happen to the inner suburban services very often but does to the outer-suburban and long distance services. Extra platform capacity is always a good thing as it is difficult to get all services running perfectly, especially with the volume at Waterloo.

 

[Goldfish62]

The DWS joins with the DWF near the flyover before Queenstown Road so not really much use and if they try and use the WR in the down direction then it causes loads of problems when the train needs to cross over onto the DWF as it has to cross the up line at Queenstown Road blocking all those lines. The WR is only really useful in the up direction.

Yes, that's precisely the point I was making. The fact remains that there is spare capacity on the lines into Waterloo that will be utilised from May.

 

[cle]

Didn't an RUS have plans to change Queenstown Road - was it to get rid of the side platform and build a line through?

 

[glbotu]

I'd assume that would be prohibitively expensive (bridges around Queenstown Road make it hard), not to mention requiring some conflicting moves operationally. The Windsor Lines run as WR-UWF-DWF-DWS, with the two DW lines merging just before Queenstown Road and diverging again at Nine Elms Junction.

I'd assume the plan would be to bring that platform back into use, allowing the Windsor Reversible to run as the UWS and using the central track to run as the UWF, as at the moment, everything runs through the UWF (except for a few fast trains going through the WR, which requires a conflicting move at Clapham Junction as up slow trains tend to use the northern most track from Barnes to Clapham Junction).

 

[cle]

Maybe that was it, makes more sense. I just couldn't quite remember exactly what the plan was.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It's good news that at last part of the international station at Waterloo will be used again, it is long over due, hopefully they can do some thing to allow easier access to platforms 21-25 as well, although that would take quite a lot of reconstruction I think.

This should have been planned and done very soon after Eurostar left....the platforms are long enough perhaps to operate as two sections, nearest and furthest from the end to allow more flexibility.

I read above that platforms 1 & 2 are to close, what's that all about.?

 

[NSEFAN]

I read above that platforms 1 & 2 are to close, what's that all about.?

They are being lengthened to 12 car, which can only be done once the "new" international platforms are brought back into use for the Windsor Line service.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a serious proposal in various previous NR strategy documents, because of the way the viaduct narrows and turns immediately outside the station there's a limit to how far you can move the 'fan-out' of the various junctions and crossovers. You'd also want to maintain all the current flexibility, e.g. if approaching on the up main slow you can currently get to any of P1-7. So if you wanted to make P1-4 two cars longer, all that point work for P1-7 also has to shift about 40 metres outside the station, with a knock on effect on the junctions with the main fast lines. If you wanted 12 cars in P1-4 it would all have to move again.

Quite quickly you get to the stage where the overall viaduct structure immediately outside the (domestic) station just isn't wide enough, so the sensible option is to re-model the whole throat and use only 17 platforms in the main station. That also allows the remaining central platforms to all be lengthened to a standard 12 car length as well.

 

[455driver]

Yes, that's precisely the point I was making. The fact remains that there is spare capacity on the lines into Waterloo that will be utilised from May.

There isn't any spare capacity!
Where do you think this spare capacity is?

 

[Goldfish62]

There isn't any spare capacity!
Where do you think this spare capacity is?

Sorry, you're wrong. Why do you think that SWT are introducing additional peak services on the Windsor lines from May? This has been extensively publicised and SWT have stated that current capacity is constrained by the number of platforms at Waterloo. Platform 20 increases that capacity.

 

[455driver]

Lets see how much tweeking of the times of existing services (to allow departing services from P20 to access the down Windsor line) have to be made to make using platform 20 viable.