Waterloo & City Crossrail question

[StupidQuestion]

Hi everyone,
This seems a nice forum but I haven't posted before.
I expect this is a stupid question but could the waterloo and city underground line be incorporated into a future expansion of crossrail?
A tunnel would be needed from where the two eastern crossrail branches merge to the Bank station and then also to somehow connect some waterloo suburban services to the waterloo underground station. Also the bank and waterloo stations would need expanding and the tunnel size increased of course. It seems like a 'relatively' cheap way of being able to double train numbers on the eastern crossrail branches, relieve waterloo platforms and relieve some tube journeys. I'm sure there are lots of reasons why this couldn't happen but was wondering what may be.
Anyway, sorry if it is a daft question or if it has been asked many times before. Thanks for any responses.
Cheers!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Welcome to the forum!
Increasing the size of the tunnels would be a huge undertaking and i doubt this would be done unless there was no other option. I think it would add unnecessary complexities to the project with little benefit. I think Crossrail will be able to take enough trains as it is. Well as long as Crossrail 2 is also built...

Just my pennies worth but someone else might be able to give a more accurate response.

 

[jopsuk]

Expanding the tunnel diameter would be really difficult- possibly more difficult than boring new tunnels? I'm no tunnel engineer, but to expand the tunnel you'd need some way of removing the old lining (often cast iron in old tubes) ahead of a highly specialised cutting head without the resulting unlined tunnel colapsing inwards.

Further, the major section of Crossrail is as a Paddington-City (Liverpool Street) capacity enhancement. Taking away trains (and hence capacity) from that section would undermine this purpose. You'd not be able to run any extra trains- there's unlikely to be demand on either of the eastern branches- and squeezing them through the resultant bottleneck anyway would be tricky.

Further issues? Current platform tunnels on the W&C are very short- the trains are only about 65m long. Connecting from the mainline at Waterloo would be difficult (the mainline is elevated) Connecting foward at Bank may be difficult- I'm not sure whether the line is at the same level as any of the other tube lines or the DLR?
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If you could overcome some of those issues, a better use of the route would perhaps be to connect the SWML Suburban lines (routes through Wimbledon) to the Lea Valley (Chingford, Enfield, Cheshunt and Hertford East), especially if such a project could give four tracks from hackney Downs to Broxbourne via Cpalton and Tottenham Hale (seperating the Cambridge, Stansted and Bishops Stortford services onto one pair of tracks with the Hertford East and Chingford on another)

 

[joeykins82]

Whilst it would relieve some pressure on the Waterloo platforms it wouldn't add any significant cross-London capacity to relieve the pressure on the tube network; just going Vauxhall - Waterloo - Bank - Liverpool St - Bethnal Green (since it'd make more sense to connect the Lea Valley routes than Stratford/Shenfield) wouldn't provide the much-needed relief to the central sections of the Victoria & Piccadilly lines or the Northern line.

Could it be done? Yes, absolutely, with enough money and support it'd be totally possible.
Should it be done? I'd say no, the cost/benefit of closing the W&C for the extended period necessary for its conversion to mainline gauge, cost and complexity of widening the tunnels, lengthening the underground platforms, realigning the platforms at Bank and providing the connections to the SWML and/or Waterloo-Reading line and the Lea Valley lines is not favourable. There are much better capacity schemes available, such as connecting the western section of Crossrail to the WCML and Chiltern mainline which would see all 24tph continue west of Paddington and would relieve platform capacity at Euston and Marylebone. Waterloo platform capacity relief is best provided by the Crossrail 2 route which also eases the congestion on the Victoria, Piccadilly and Northern lines and on the underground connections at Victoria and Waterloo stations.

 

[stephen_c]

I wrote up a practical scheme along the W&C route called Swanlink. Expanding the W&C itself is a bad idea as it doesn't save you anything.

 

[hwl]

Far more effective to put the money towards crossrail 2 (tunnels from Wimbledon to Alexandra Palace and WAML @Tottenham Hale

Complete non starter technically (in addition to the above comments):
The waterloo and city tunnels are also perpendicular to the rail lines at Waterloo and hemmed in by other tunnels at bank. The tunnels also run in close proximity to the District and Circle line tunnels between Blackfriars and Mansion House making rebuilding them even trickier.
There are also some fairly tight slow curves.

 

[StupidQuestion]

Thanks everyone for your responses! Interesting reading through them. Thought there would be lots of reasons why it wouldn't work. Didn't realise enlarging a tunnel was so expensive as I'm not an engineer or anything.
Looks like it is essentially the same plan as stephen c's 'swanlink' idea only (foolishly) trying to use the waterloo and city tunnels.
Just to be clear I didn't expect trains to be taken away from the paddington crossrail trains, just added to the eastern branches. Also, the 'tube relief' I mentioned may come from commuters on the south west/waterloo trains who work in the City or Canary wharf. But I guess this maybe isn't really a priority/worth the expense.
Thanks again!

 

[jopsuk]

Just to be clear I didn't expect trains to be taken away from the paddington crossrail trains, just added to the eastern branches.

The main reason this wouldn't work is that (unless like the "Swanlink" idea you added an extra pair of tunnels) the Liverpool Street-Whitechapel section would already be at or near capacity.

 

[StupidQuestion]

The main reason this wouldn't work is that (unless like the "Swanlink" idea you added an extra pair of tunnels) the Liverpool Street-Whitechapel section would already be at or near capacity.

Yes, that's what I meant. A new tunnel(s) from bank (in addition to the current crossrail tunnels). Sorry! clearly 48tph would be stretching things.

 

[A0]

Didn't someone suggest that the W&C could be linked to the Drayton Pk - Moorgate line? Notwithstanding the tunnel size difference.

Certainly the N&C was originally planned to be extended to Lothbury but the cash ran out before that could be built.

 

[hwl]

Didn't someone suggest that the W&C could be linked to the Drayton Pk - Moorgate line? Notwithstanding the tunnel size difference.

Certainly the N&C was originally planned to be extended to Lothbury but the cash ran out before that could be built.

It is a frequent suggestion but the people suggesting it forget what is currently being built that blocks extending the line south from Moorgate. The W&C is already blocked in at Bank in a similar way.

 

[jopsuk]

Plus the Moorgate tunnles are much bigger than the W&C ones- which was part of why the Moorgate disaster was as bad as it was.

 

[A0]

Plus the Moorgate tunnles are much bigger than the W&C ones- which was part of why the Moorgate disaster was as bad as it was.

In fairness, I did make the point the tunnels were different sizes.

The problem with the Moorgate disaster wasn't the tunnel size per se, it was the fact that tube-sized stock was being run in a full sized tunnel.

When built the GN & CR ran full sized stock as they'd always envisaged having a mainline connection - which didn't happen until BR took over the line in 1976.
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It is a frequent suggestion but the people suggesting it forget what is currently being built that blocks extending the line south from Moorgate. The W&C is already blocked in at Bank in a similar way.

Have to say, hadn't realised that.

It's a bit of a pity in some respects - if that branch to Moorgate remains as is, then it's always going to be a bit of a backwater. Extension southwards could make it quite useful but it sounds like it won't ever happen.

I don't subscribe to the view that TFL should take over the GN Inner Suburban services - unlike the Watford ones, they're not self-contained as they share both tracks and stock with the outer suburban operation.

 

[edwin_m]

The Crossrail Liverpool Street station is so big that the far end of it interchanges with Moorgate, thus the GN Inners will gain useful connections to Canary Wharf etc.

 

[mister-sparky]

The entire Crossrail 2 project likely costs less than it would cost just to make the necessary changes to the W&C Line...

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I thought it was a shame when they extended DLR into Bank, that they did not connect up with the W&C and thus have through trains running from Waterloo which may have more more direct to reach some parts of Docklands than the JLE.

 

[The Ham]

The entire Crossrail 2 project likely costs less than it would cost just to make the necessary changes to the W&C Line...

...and even if it was more it would bring a lot more benefits to other parts of London which would still make the Cost to Benefit ratio higher.

 

[StupidQuestion]

The entire Crossrail 2 project likely costs less than it would cost just to make the necessary changes to the W&C Line...

OK fair enough. But how about compared to the 'swanlink' idea? Stephen c estimated that would cost around £4bn. Crossrail 2 is estimated to cost £12bn I think.
Also, does anyone know roughly how much it costs to expand a tunnel's size compared with boring a complete new one? Say per km for example.
Cheers!

 

[LE Greys]

I thought it was a shame when they extended DLR into Bank, that they did not connect up with the W&C and thus have through trains running from Waterloo which may have more more direct to reach some parts of Docklands than the JLE.

I've often said that myself, I believe that there would be no need to expand the tunnels then (correct me if I'm wrong). If the line is closed for long enough, it might be possible to dig around the tunnels and put in a new station at Blackfriars, something like St Pancras Midland Road. The DLR actually recycled some parts of the original River Line proposals, which involved an extension from what became the Jubilee Line at Charing Cross to Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Cannon Street, and Fenchurch Street (roughly Island Gardens), then on to St Katharine Docks, Wapping, Surrey Docks North, Millwall (near South Quay DLR), North Greenwich, Custom House, Silvertown, Woolwich Arsenal, ending up at Thamesmead. I don't believe they ever looked at Bank as an option, but it sounds possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought it was a shame when they extended DLR into Bank, that they did not connect up with the W&C and thus have through trains running from Waterloo which may have more more direct to reach some parts of Docklands than the JLE.

I distinctly remember an article in Modern Railways when the DLR Bank extension was being built with words (from TfLs predecessor) to the effect that the DLR trains won't fit in the Drain Tunnel (by a long way, with the requirement for a wheelchair wide walkway), and the Drain trains won't go round the DLR curves.

 

[Aictos]

A possible Crossrail 2 connecting SWT Inners with FCC Inners would I believe ease congestion on the Northern line for one as well the Piccadilly line, extending the NCL at Moorgate ain't going to happen so we need to look at other alternatives.

Being able to do Finsbury Park to Clapham Junction/Wimbledon will be so much quicker then the existing connections and easier

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I distinctly remember an article in Modern Railways when the DLR Bank extension was being built with words (from TfLs predecessor) to the effect that the DLR trains won't fit in the Drain Tunnel (by a long way, with the requirement for a wheelchair wide walkway), and the Drain trains won't go round the DLR curves.

Oh, right, yes I can see that the Drain trains would be too big for DLR, but did not realize that DLR trains would not fit through the Drain Tunnels.
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I've often said that myself, I believe that there would be no need to expand the tunnels then (correct me if I'm wrong). If the line is closed for long enough, it might be possible to dig around the tunnels and put in a new station at Blackfriars, something like St Pancras Midland Road. The DLR actually recycled some parts of the original River Line proposals, which involved an extension from what became the Jubilee Line at Charing Cross to Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Cannon Street, and Fenchurch Street (roughly Island Gardens), then on to St Katharine Docks, Wapping, Surrey Docks North, Millwall (near South Quay DLR), North Greenwich, Custom House, Silvertown, Woolwich Arsenal, ending up at Thamesmead. I don't believe they ever looked at Bank as an option, but it sounds possible.

That's another extension that I have thought about and would have been useful too, I think it may have been called the Fleet Line when In LTs planning stages and it could of linked into the ELL too.