Im seeking help regarding a fine i have been given regarding a train i took from Slough to Paddington and back. I don't really travel by train so I don't really know the protocol. I was told numerous times by the ticket officer that this was not a fine and that I just needed to buy a railcard and I would be fine however now I have received a settlement offer for £102. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Was told I would not get a fine.
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If you’ve received a settlement offer, you’re probably best to pay it. £102 is a relatively low amount compared to previous settlements.
You’re going to need to elaborate on what has led up to this for us to be able to advise you further.
You’re going to need to elaborate on what has led up to this for us to be able to advise you further.
So im 18 and I didn't have a railcard but picked it when buying my ticket. This is my first real time going on a train and i got stopped in the return of the journey. When I was stopped I got told that this was not a fine and that if i bought a railcard it would be fine however now i seem to have been given a fine despite buying the railcard i was told to buy.
So by picking a railcard when purchasing your ticket, it meant your ticket was not valid. Buying a railcard helps you in the future, but you hadn’t bought it when you boarded the train so it doesn’t count for that journey. Thus you committed an offence, and could be prosecuted if you don’t pay the settlement offered (which is, in the scheme of things, quite reasonable).
Assuming you don’t want a criminal record I would pay up within the time period stated.
Assuming you don’t want a criminal record I would pay up within the time period stated.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
It’s not a fine , if you don’t pay it you’ll most likely get a fine
You do not have any right to appeal. You need to pay the settlement before the deadline as they will otherwise prosecute you in the magistrates’ court. There is no doubt you are guilty of at least a Bylaw 18 offence in these circumstances.
Could you link where I can find the bylaws as the bylaw 18 that came up when i searched was one on having a valid ticket but I did buy a ticket. Also why are you able to just select a railcard as i thought this was what you were suppposed to do. Why do they not check to make sure you arent making a mistake.
Maybe it was 'suggested' to him to buy a card for future use ? (to avoid further issues !)
If you bought a ticket with a railcard discount - but did not have the railcard you told the system you had - then you did not have a VALID ticket.
A railcard-discounted ticket only becomes a valid ticket if it's presented alongside the railcard
Whilst others have rightly suggested you aren’t getting a “fine” (which can only be issued by a court) it is most likely they were referring to any form of penalty payment and have Infact simply lied to you. This is becoming increasingly common from railway staff. They don’t want any additional conflict but have targets to meet and have to do their job so they’ll openly lie about the situation to get you to cooperate fully.
At the end of the day you committed the offence so whatever penalty you’ve received is now due and you’d be advised to pay it promptly.
If you wish to make a complaint against the train operating company or the staff member then you can do this afterwards although I suspect it would be a wasted effort.
So did you pick the railcard when you picked the ticket for this journey? It is not clear from this sentence that whether you just failed to present it on the journey or didnt have it at all. Or do you mean you picked it on the next ticket purchase?
Again, it is not clear what you told the officer. If you used wording similar to above, it could be implied you had picked the railcard and therefore the inspector correctly told you it will be fine (as in okay, not fine as in penalty).
Unfortunately, based on what you have written, it would appear you led the guard to believe you had the railcard and only forgot it.
The last sentence is also not clear. Did you buy the railcard again?
So i used the machine outside the station and i clicked the railcard but i didn't have a railcard as i didnt know. The guard specifically said that if i bought a railcard it would be fine. I did end up buying a railcard after the conversation. He was definitely talking about paying a fine as he said that i should just pay £30 for a railcard then pay the £100 for a fine so he definitely knew i didnt have one.
Unfortunately staff will sometimes say things to prevent an escalation on the train, even if they know the resolution they suggest isn’t likely to happen.
It wasnt on the train. It was at the ticket gate at the end of my journey.
OK, well the same applies there too.
You’re not going to get a better deal than you’ve been offered. I would pay the settlement and move on.
Based on the below, the first sentence above is not factually true.
Again, based on below, the second sentence is not factually correct. The guards are on trains and it appears you were caught by RPI.
Guards can show discretion and issue PF, but RPI won't. There is no legal requirement to show discretion.
Regardless of what was said or not said (and we don't have both sides of the event), the offense was committed the moment you boarded the train with an invalid ticket. What the RPI said has no dependence on the outcome and is no mitigation for you not having the railcard.
As mentioned above, the settlement offer of £90 plus cost of ticket £12 is a very good offer - given you technically boarded without a ticket and could be prosecuted for it.
OK thanks. Also by the way what does PF and RPI stand for.
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It’s probably worth highlighting that layman’s terms a “guard” could easily mean something other than that as defined by the railway (e.g. security guard, ticket guard, similar).
A Penalty Fare, and a Revenue Protection Inspector.
"and back". They have charged £12 for the ticket element which is an undiscounted Anytime Single from Paddington to Slough, if they wanted to they could have charged another £12 for Slough to Paddington.
If you had something in writing from the "ticket officer", that combined with proof of immediate railcard purchase would be something to consider, but even then since you had already travelled Slough->Paddington then they could very well request the £102 for that anyway so as others have already said then paying it looks like your best option.
WesternLancer
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Basically you availed yourself of a Railcard discount to which you were not entitled which rendered your ticket not valid. They can prosecute you in court for that and would win. You would be fined a higher sum than you are being asked for and have a criminal record. This is best avoided.
It doesn’t really matter what the staff member said sadly unless you can prove it in court (eg you recorded what was said) and even then you’re probably still guilty of the actual offence.
Sorry about this but it’s going to be best to pay the sum asked for and keep proof of payment for at least a year.
I note they will increase the sum if you don’t pay promptly too.
It’s not really clear why you would think you could get a Railcard discount without having a Railcard but I guess people do get confused. If unsure you should ask staff before buying a ticket or go to a ticket office if there is one. It’s not an excuse the railway company are likely to believ anyway I suspect.
At least you have the railcard for future use. Check the t&c about when you can use it and make a note if the expiry date. It should save you money overall. You need to always be able to show it on a journey when asked to do so.
Sorry you have not had a good experience on this occasion though.
It doesn’t really matter what the staff member said sadly unless you can prove it in court (eg you recorded what was said) and even then you’re probably still guilty of the actual offence.
Sorry about this but it’s going to be best to pay the sum asked for and keep proof of payment for at least a year.
I note they will increase the sum if you don’t pay promptly too.
It’s not really clear why you would think you could get a Railcard discount without having a Railcard but I guess people do get confused. If unsure you should ask staff before buying a ticket or go to a ticket office if there is one. It’s not an excuse the railway company are likely to believ anyway I suspect.
At least you have the railcard for future use. Check the t&c about when you can use it and make a note if the expiry date. It should save you money overall. You need to always be able to show it on a journey when asked to do so.
Sorry you have not had a good experience on this occasion though.
185143
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To be fair, and it's off topic, seniors get discounts in a lot of places and can just ask for a senior rate. If they look old enough, they'd get it.
Not unfeasible that someone may expect the same at a ticket office, as they would a theatre box office (for example). Of course, I'd then expect the ticket clerk to ask for their railcard and then refuse the sale if they don't have one. But I can certainly believe they might genuinely expect a discount.
You've been charged £30 for a railcard, £12 for a ticket and £90 as a fee for costs by the sound of it? Seems to me the correct action would have been to issue a Penalty Fare so you would have been given the opportunity to only pay £50 instead of the £90 element. However this option wasn't offered to you. You can't do anything about that as unfortunately you made the mistake. The extra £40 isn't a great outcome for you of course but it could have been much, much worse. You got away with using the ticket even though you weren't entitled to it on the outward didn't you? So you have at least not been charged anything in respect of that.
I disagree. Firstly the OP is 18, so a discussion around seniors is irrelevant. But more importantly, you typically have to tick a box that says you have a Railcard, and once you say yes, it then gives you the option of which Railcard you hold. So you have to make a conscious decision first time* to say that you hold a Railcard and which one. That's completely different to asking at a ticket booth for the cinema, zoo, etc, "I'm X, am I entitled to a discounted rate?"
* Yes, I know that once chosen some ticketing systems default to offering the Railcard on future purchases, but there's nothing that the OP has said to suggest that is what happened here.
Although he said first real time going by train, so I guess the railcard option would not have been 'pre-selected' ? thus it must have been selected when buying the ticket, the TOC could see that as deliberate and could argue a case of fraud ?
WesternLancer
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Perhaps this is a fair point. You might expec t to have to show some form of entitlement of course.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Post 17 says bought it at a machine. If so requires some steps to obtain the railcard discount at purchase.
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