Was I issued a caution?

[kacarmic31]

I know this seems like a silly question, but I am a foreigner (from the US) and I am not used to the train system's officers.

About 3 months ago, I bought a return ticket using my young person's railcard. I had been using my railcard all year and out of habit and not being too attentive, I hadn't noticed my railcard had expired (will never make that mistake again!).

As I was leaving my station, I was stopped by an Southern Railways employee who was helping people cross the barrier. He told me my card was expired, then he proceeded to take out a notepad and asked me my name. I gave him my residence permit card and he wrote down my information. He asked me for an address and I told him that since it was one of my last days in the UK, that whatever penalties he would send to the address I gave him would not be received by me since I was moving back to the states. I gave him my old address because he insisted I provide him with a UK address.

He then strangely kept asking me for my occupation and in my confusion, I kept asking "Why do you need my occupation? Why are you doing this? Am I in trouble? What is going on?" After several minutes of embarrassing back and forth at the front of the barriers, he asked his supervisor to come over and his supervisor told him to let me go. He then confiscated my railcard and told me I was free to go but if I tried anything again, they know who I am because they have my railcard and I am on CCTV.

My questions are:

1. Can he issue a simple caution that shows up on a criminal records check?

2. Was I even given a simple caution?

3. Are simple cautions given to you right then and there, or do they take your name and address and mail it to you? Do I need to have a signed copy, similar to a traffic ticket, for a caution to be valid?

4. If I was given a caution, where can I find out information on it? I obviously don't live at the address I provided for him, so anything mailed to that address would be returned to sender.

Sorry for the long post, but I am very very nervous about getting into any trouble. Thank you for your advice in advance!

 

[bb21]

No, and no.

If you didn't leave him with an address then consider it your lucky day. No further action will be taken on this occasion.

Just be more careful next time.

 

[kacarmic31]

Well I did give them an address, it was just my address I used for when I studied on a student visa. I essentially gave them my dorm room address. I tried to call the dorm and they told me once I am an ex-student, all mail gets returned to sender.

The trouble is my memory has failed me and I cannot for the life of me remember is the employee said they were going to report me or not. All I know is I have no way of knowing if I owe the rail services money. Is there any way to find out?

 

[sjoh]

To clarify;

To caution someone is simply to inform them of their rights regarding being questioned and what it will be used for. Much like the Miranda rights in the US.
I.e "You do not have to say anything. Anything which you do say may be used as evidence against you in court. Anything which you fail to mention when questioned which you come to rely on in court may harm your defense.

To have been issued with a caution is a way of being dealt with by the police which does not appear on a criminal record, but which would be taken into account should a subsequent offence be committed.

Confusing that they're both called the same thing, but that's the way it is.

In any case, looks like you got away with it. Pay attention to expiry dates in future

 

[kacarmic31]

Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, I did provide the employee with my name and address. I am wondering if there is a way to find out if I have been issued a caution?

My main reason why I care so much is I have submitted a settlement visa application to be with my UK husband. I had forgotten about this little incident until about 3 hours ago, and now I am riddled with anxiety that I have forgotten to tell the immigration team. If I have been issued a caution without my knowledge, and I fail to declare it, the UK visas and immigration can and will issue me a visa refusal and also a possible ban. All of this because of a simple mistake. So, does anyone know if there are any routes I can take to check if I was reported? I have the date and the station of the incident.

I dismissed this initially because I never signed any formal document at the gates stating I was being cautioned, but I am not sure if the employee was within his rights to simply not tell me and report me anyway, mailing me a caution to this address I no longer have access to.

Thank you!

 

[kacarmic31]

Also, even if I wasn't issues a simple caution, it is important for me to know if they have requested via a mailed letter to pay a penalty. If I don't pay, I assume my situation will become even worse, yes? Sorry for so many replies, I am very anxious.

 

[yorkie]

To be clear, I did provide the employee with my name and address. I am wondering if there is a way to find out if I have been issued a caution?

See post #4 above. It is not possible for a GTR employee to issue a police caution.

In theory you may have been reported for prosecution but it sounds like you weren't. What information did you provide in the end? Did you offer to give your new address as well as your old one, and they refused to write it down?

You could contact GTR's prosecution department to ask them to clarify.

And if you are really worried, and happy to spend £10, you could make a subject access request from GTR:

Under the terms of the Data Protection Act (DPA) 1998, you can ask for access to information we hold about you. This is called a Subject Access Request, or SAR.
If you would like to make a SAR please complete the subject access request form. This guides you through the information and identification we need to process your request.
If you don’t want to complete the form, you can still write to us or email with:

• A clear written request, detailing the information you require.
• 2 forms of identification to enable us to verify your name (e.g. Copy of Driving License or Passport ID and address (e.g. a utility bill or similar) dated within the last 3 months.

You'll have to pay a £10 non-refundable fee for a SAR to cover our administration costs.
Your request will only be actioned when we have received the proof of name and address, identification, and the fee.
Please send all SAR requests to:
Julie Sadler
Data Protection Officer
Internal Audit and Compliance
1st Floor Monument Place
24 Monument Street
London
EC3R 8AJ
privacy@gtrailway.com

(From 'Contacting Us -> How can I see the information you have about me?')

 

[Bletchleyite]

To have been issued with a caution is a way of being dealt with by the police which does not appear on a criminal record

For clarity, a Police caution (which this is not) is recorded on the PNC and in some circumstances is disclosed on a DBS check.

 

[mazza887]

I think what the OP may be concerned about is that the employee has referred her case to their prosecutions department. If so they will send her a letter to her old address, which will be returned. She is then at risk of this going to court without her and without having an opportunity to settle the matter out of court.

My advice would be to ring the prosecutions team, and if you don't exist on their system, ring again next month and maybe the month after that to try and resolve things over the phone (if there turns out to be anything to resolve).

 

[AlterEgo]

Nobody except the police can issue you with a police caution.

 

[Haywain]

From your first post it seems to me that you have not received a caution, but you have most definitely received a warning.

 

[furlong]

From your first post it seems to me that you have not received a caution, but you have most definitely received a warning.

More confusion! Just as you have cautions from the police, you have warnings which surely this was not!

 

[kacarmic31]

Thank you, mazza887, that is exactly what is concerning me. My issue is that I need to know if the employee has written me up and sent me a ticket/citation for which I owe Southern Rail money. I am concerned they sent this to my old address which I gave them and I no longer have access to. I assume the ticket/citation turns into a horrible mess if you do not respond to it. What is the number I call to find out if I am in their system?

 

[Haywain]

He ... told me I was free to go but if I tried anything again, they know who I am because they have my railcard and I am on CCTV.

More confusion! Just as you have cautions from the police, you have warnings which surely this was not!

As quoted above, the OP was given a warning albeit an informal one. I'm not sure what else you would call it.

 

[najaB]

As quoted above, the OP was given a warning albeit an informal one. I'm not sure what else you would call it.

The OP was warned, but wasn't issued a formal police warning (another name for a Caution).

 

[mazza887]

This is Southern Rail customer services team number so you could try calling that and ask to be transferred to the prosecution department: 0345 127 2920

I couldn't find a direct prosecution department number

 

[Clipper]

Out of date rail card? I think at worst it would have been a by-law offence so non recordable...

I'm surprised that they didn't just offer you the excess there and then.

 

[island]

An on-train excess from a Railcard-discounted ticket to the full fare version of the same ticket is not meant to be issued, as it provides an incentive for passengers to try it on.

(An excess before travel probably isn't meant to be done either but that's a whole 'nother debate.)

 

[kacarmic31]

Out of date rail card? I think at worst it would have been a by-law offence so non recordable...

I'm surprised that they didn't just offer you the excess there and then.

It was an out of date rail card which I was not aware of (I suppose my knowledge doesn't matter anyway). I wasn't approached on the train so there were no opportunities for me to pay on board. I was stopped at the barrier.

I called the Southern Rail helpline and the woman gave me a number that just rang and then hung up. I called the helpline again and she told me that Southern Rail employees issue a ticket on site and they only mail out a penalty to our address if it is not paid then and there. In other words, if I walked out of the station without a ticket, I didn't get one. I am hoping this is true!

 

[najaB]

...she told me that Southern Rail employees issue a ticket on site and they only mail out a penalty to our address if it is not paid then and there. In other words, if I walked out of the station without a ticket, I didn't get one. I am hoping this is true!

It's mostly true. A Penalty Fare has to be issued on the spot and the TOC may choose to take payment at later date.

They could, however, still be considering a prosecution (though I think it unlikely). So you aren't necessarily out of the woods yet.

 

[philthetube]

The op doesn't say how the ticket was bought but if bought at an office how much responsibility does the office bear?

 

[najaB]

The op doesn't say how the ticket was bought but if bought at an office how much responsibility does the office bear?

If it was bought at a ticket office then the clerk should have informed the passenger that the card was expired (or would be expired by date of the journey) and noted such on the back of the ticket.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Out of date rail card? I think at worst it would have been a by-law offence so non recordable...

I'm surprised that they didn't just offer you the excess there and then.

The 'excess' fare is not an option if the RPI believes that an offence is evident and we don't know whether the OP was asked to pay the undiscounted fare and refused?

The responsibility for checking that a Railcard is valid and in-date before attempting to use it to claim a discount always lies with the traveller and as the OP has already identified for themselves in an earlier post, 'ignorance' is not a defence.

Much depends on how far out of date the Railcard was and how it was purchased in the first place. If the railcard was purchased online there will be a checkable record.

What address did the OP give when buying that Railcard and is it still relevant, or can mail be received for the OP there?

If the Railcard was several months out of date and the RPI suspects, or saw evidence of other, previously used discounted tickets purchased after it had expired, then a RoRA prosecution is at least possible.