Wartime Black livery

[mike57]

How was the wartime black livery, 'labour saving' over an unlined version of the normal livery, or was the livery to do with less visibility from the air? in which case the labour saving aspect is a misinterpration of the original intent.

 

[Iskra]

How was the wartime black livery, 'labour saving' over an unlined version of the normal livery, or was the livery to do with less visibility from the air? in which case the labour saving aspect is a misinterpration of the original intent.

I think it was more cost saving, as it’s cheaper than more intricate livery’s and requires less cleaning and maintenance to keep looking acceptable.

I don’t think visibility has much to do with it as steam loco’s working were pretty visible from the air anyway even at night when flying conditions were acceptable.

 

[Gloster]

The majority of the locos would already have been either green or black, only LMS passenger ones and LT being the exception, and they aren’t that obvious to a passing aircraft. A locomotive is likely to be throwing out a head of steam, sitting on a clearly definable object (a railway) and often attached to another clearly defined object (a train), so merely repainting the engine won’t make it invisible. And of course your aircraft is whizzing past at speed.

Additionally, the fear early in the war was of bombing: ’The bomber will always get through’, Baldwin’s expression of Douhet’s theories was still current at the beginning of the war and most did not really consider air-to-ground gun attacks. The bomber-aimer is not going to have the opportunity to spot a loco and aim at it because of its colour.

There may have been a bit of a panic at the outbreak of war and odd ideas may have been brought into force, but cheapness and labour saving were probably the main reason. There may also have been some vague intention to get the idea of austerity into people’s consciousness, the feeling of ‘We are all in this together’. (Where have I heard that in recent years)

 

[D6130]

I don’t think visibility has much to do with it as steam loco’s working were pretty visible from the air anyway even at night when flying conditions were acceptable.

Where the design of the loco permitted, a lot of steam locos were fitted with cab-to-tender tarpaulins during WW2 to minimise the chances of the glow from the firebox door being spotted by enemy pilots. These also had the bonus of keeping crews dry during bad weather.

 

[pdeaves]

There may also have been some vague intention to get the idea of austerity into people’s consciousness, the feeling of ‘We are all in this together’.

I think there is much truth in that. "There's a war on, you know". A modern day description may be 'virtue signalling' (not a perfect analogy).

 

[The exile]

It would have also presumably simplified things at the paint manufacturers (whether in-house or not) and reduce the need to have highly flammable paint stored awaiting use.

 

[John Luxton]

According to latest news from the SVR TAW VALLEY is to have its Purple Platinum Jubillee purple replaced by SR Wartime black for 2023 before she is withdrawn for overhaul.

Not quite accurate as the rebuilding was in BR times but a chance for us to see it for real and better than the purple!

 

[DerekC]

My first thought (as others have said) is that the black colour was about maintenance cost. Black doesn't show the dirt so much - locos having a paint job during the war probably didn't get another one until after it. However, a question - were GWR green and LMS maroon locos repainted black before they would normally have come up for a paint job? if so there was obviously another factor than just cost - I am not too convinced about the "visibility from the air" issue but maybe somebody was worried about it at the time!

 

[John Webb]

Where the design of the loco permitted, a lot of steam locos were fitted with cab-to-tender tarpaulins during WW2 to minimise the chances of the glow from the firebox door being spotted by enemy pilots. These also had the bonus of keeping crews dry during bad weather.

Many locos were fitted with these tarpaulins well before WW2 to keep the rain off the crew, particularly when running backwards. Modified versions with side curtains as well were fitted to some locos where they were needed to help reduce the firebox glare. From reading several books about wartime railway operations I gather they could make the footplate uncomfortably hot, particularly in the Summer.

 

[randyrippley]

The majority of the locos would already have been either green or black, only LMS passenger ones and LT being the exception, and they aren’t that obvious to a passing aircraft. A locomotive is likely to be throwing out a head of steam, sitting on a clearly definable object (a railway) and often attached to another clearly defined object (a train), so merely repainting the engine won’t make it invisible. And of course your aircraft is whizzing past at speed.

Additionally, the fear early in the war was of bombing: ’The bomber will always get through’, Baldwin’s expression of Douhet’s theories was still current at the beginning of the war and most did not really consider air-to-ground gun attacks. The bomber-aimer is not going to have the opportunity to spot a loco and aim at it because of its colour.

There may have been a bit of a panic at the outbreak of war and odd ideas may have been brought into force, but cheapness and labour saving were probably the main reason. There may also have been some vague intention to get the idea of austerity into people’s consciousness, the feeling of ‘We are all in this together’. (Where have I heard that in recent years)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

It's simple

A gloss or enamel finish requires multiple coats of primer, undercoat, paint and varnish. All by skilled tradesmen if you want to avoid runs, blobs, drips and other imperfection.

Matt black can be slapped on by anyone holding a brush, in a single coat directly onto red lead primer, or even bare metal if in a hurry.

On top of that, standardising on one cheap, quick and easy product saved money, saved imports of dyes and pigments (quite likely from Germany) , and released chemical production capacity
All that green pigment would be needed by the army.....

 

[Harvester]

Checking through Yeadon’s Register (A4 Class) it appears that the first A4 didn’t receive wartime black until as late as November 1941. It was then applied as a labour saving measure to the rest of the class, as they went through works.

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

It's simple

A gloss or enamel finish requires multiple coats of primer, undercoat, paint and varnish. All by skilled tradesmen if you want to avoid runs, blobs, drips and other imperfection.

Matt black can be slapped on by anyone holding a brush, in a single coat directly onto red lead primer, or even bare metal if in a hurry.

On top of that, standardising on one cheap, quick and easy product saved money, saved imports of dyes and pigments (quite likely from Germany) , and released chemical production capacity
All that green pigment would be needed by the army.....

so was the black a matt finish? don't think I knew that - just assumed it looked matt pretty quickly because of the filth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

It would have also presumably simplified things at the paint manufacturers (whether in-house or not) and reduce the need to have highly flammable paint stored awaiting use.

Yes, easy for the paint factory to just turn out the one colour.

Meanwhile I doubt it was easy to get paint for civilian use (eg to paint your window frames) at all during the war, let along in a choice of colours, part from pre war old stock at the shops. I can't quite recall for certain, but have a feeling my grandad (a keen DIYer) mentioning this sort of problem to me when I was helping him paint stuff back in the 1970s when he was talking about his recollections of wartime situation on the domestic front.

 

[Irascible]

Where the design of the loco permitted, a lot of steam locos were fitted with cab-to-tender tarpaulins during WW2 to minimise the chances of the glow from the firebox door being spotted by enemy pilots. These also had the bonus of keeping crews dry during bad weather.

Doesn't really stop the glow from underneath, unfortunately. Tarpaulins mostly weather related, not an amazing amount you can do to disguise a steam locomotive. Actually *hitting* one at night unless it's moonlit would have been quite a feat anyway.

 

[Iskra]

Doesn't really stop the glow from underneath, unfortunately. Tarpaulins mostly weather related, not an amazing amount you can do to disguise a steam locomotive. Actually *hitting* one at night unless it's moonlit would have been quite a feat anyway.

I read a fantastic book about the Dambuster’s raid by James Holland earlier this year and he recalled the tailgunner of a low-flying Lancaster bomber on a night raid spotting a German steam locomotive, firing at it and watching it explode. If you think about the rate of fire of a machine gun, the size of a locomotive and the fact that a Lancaster bomber tail turret had four such weapons and it probably only took one bullet to do the job on a steam locomotive, I don’t think it was actually that hard.

In winter especially, a working steam locomotive at night would have been an obvious target.

 

[Harvester]

Actually *hitting* one at night unless it's moonlit would have been quite a feat anyway.

That’s why stations and depots were targeted. Hall 4911 and A4 4469 were destroyed at Plymouth and York, just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Gloster]

That’s why stations and depots were targeted. Hall 4911 and A4 4469 were destroyed at Plymouth and York, just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So was SR (Ex-LSWR) T14 458 at Nine Elms.

 

[randyrippley]

so was the black a matt finish? don't think I knew that - just assumed it looked matt pretty quickly because of the filth.


Yes, easy for the paint factory to just turn out the one colour.

Meanwhile I doubt it was easy to get paint for civilian use (eg to paint your window frames) at all during the war, let along in a choice of colours, part from pre war old stock at the shops. I can't quite recall for certain, but have a feeling my grandad (a keen DIYer) mentioning this sort of problem to me when I was helping him paint stuff back in the 1970s when he was talking about his recollections of wartime situation on the domestic front.

Yes the black was matt

As for paint for home use, I suspect all that was available was whitewash / limewash from local quarries, possibly stained with coloured earth or sand

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

That’s why stations and depots were targeted. Hall 4911 and A4 4469 were destroyed at Plymouth and York, just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

According to German radio the Luftwaffe successfully targeted the marshalling yards at Montacute and the docks and sidings at Milborne Port.

 

[Gloster]

Yes the black was matt

As for paint for home use, I suspect all that was available was whitewash / limewash from local quarries, possibly stained with coloured earth or sand

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

Or olive green/navy blue/Air Force blue that fell off the back of a truck. Though maybe that would be a bit obvious on the front door.

According to German radio the Luftwaffe successfully targeted the marshalling yards at Montacute and the docks and sidings at Milborne Port.

They also hit Castle Cary, destroying the box and ‘1854’ Class 0-6-0PT 1729, although that was in daylight.

 

[Harvester]

Modified versions with side curtains as well were fitted to some locos where they were needed to help reduce the firebox glare. From reading several books about wartime railway operations I gather they could make the footplate uncomfortably hot, particularly in the Summer.

The side blinds could also completely block the side view from the footplate. At Norton Fitzwarren in 1940, the crew of the newspaper train were quite unaware that they were running alongside doomed King 6028, and that they had then drawn clear of the derailment in the nick of time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Numerous engines had some of the side windows plated , and the later build Austerity engines had just one side cab window for essential purposes (to reduce glare from the open firebox when firing) .....

 

[Bevan Price]

That’s why stations and depots were targeted. Hall 4911 and A4 4469 were destroyed at Plymouth and York, just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Plus a B16 at York in the same raid that wrecked the A4

 

[randyrippley]

According to German radio the Luftwaffe successfully targeted the marshalling yards at Montacute and the docks and sidings at Milborne Port.

for those who didn't understand.................Montacute had one siding for the cattle dock, while Milborne Port station was a halt, 30+ miles from the sea. No docks or sidings

 

[D6968]

I read a fantastic book about the Dambuster’s raid by James Holland earlier this year and he recalled the tailgunner of a low-flying Lancaster bomber on a night raid spotting a German steam locomotive, firing at it and watching it explode. If you think about the rate of fire of a machine gun, the size of a locomotive and the fact that a Lancaster bomber tail turret had four such weapons and it probably only took one bullet to do the job on a steam locomotive, I don’t think it was actually that hard.

In winter especially, a working steam locomotive at night would have been an obvious target.

Then of course there was this…

 

[Taunton]

Where the design of the loco permitted, a lot of steam locos were fitted with cab-to-tender tarpaulins during WW2 to minimise the chances of the glow from the firebox door being spotted by enemy pilots. These also had the bonus of keeping crews dry during bad weather.

I think it was the other way round, established wet-weather tarpaulins (there were hooks provided on GWR locos) were instructed to be always put up at night in the war. The GWR also blanked out some cab side windows.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2022 ==

They also hit Castle Cary, destroying the box and ‘1854’ Class 0-6-0PT 1729, although that was in daylight.

That area of rural Somerset had some misfortunes; just over the fields at Templecombe on the Southern the quite recently rebuilt signalbox, in 1930s streamlined style, was also hit and destroyed. It was later rebuilt the same as before.

 

[Gloster]

That area of rural Somerset had some misfortunes; just over the fields at Templecombe on the Southern the quite recently rebuilt signalbox, in 1930s streamlined style, was also hit and destroyed. It was later rebuilt the same as before.

That is a new one on me. Castle Cary was destroyed and rebuilt to GWR ARP design.

 

[Taunton]

That is a new one on me.

1942. Here's a description

How war-time bombing raid left 14 dead in sleepy village – The New Blackmore Vale Magazine

blackmorevale.net

 

[Gloster]

1942. Here's a description

How war-time bombing raid left 14 dead in sleepy village – The New Blackmore Vale Magazine

blackmorevale.net

Well, well, I had never heard of that. It was more the damage to the box that caught my eye as I had never heard of that. I actually enquired about a vacancy there when I was made redundant, but a chap from Brighton had already applied for it.