Warren Street Issues

[embers25]

A word of warning for those wishing to break rail journeys at Warren Street:

Saturday morning I was using the return portion of my usual Woking to Banbury route +Any Permitted ticket that SWT hate so much and on arrival into London I decided to break my tube journey at Warren Street. Obviously this is ok as long as I don't mind walking on to Waterloo and a + symbol allows 1 tube trip which you can use to a non-rail station in zone 1 if you so choose.
Upon reaching the barriers the ticket doesn't work as they are programmed not to accept them to ensure people are informed by staff that once their trip is broken they can't continue on by tube later (or so Oxford Street told me) which is fine. Unfortunately there was no one on the barriers at all so I went to the Excess window where I met a very grouchy guy (maybe SWT trained him in the past!) who informed me my ticket was invalid!!! I queried why and was informed that the + sign meant nothing and the route "any permitted" meant it wasn't permitted!!! When I informed him what the + meant he laughed and disputed it and told me to go talk to the barrier staff. On pointing out there were no barrier staff and that he should chheck the rules that he clearly didn't know he sent me to the office area by the barriers still adamant it wasn't valid. After interrupting the two people inside the office the guy took one look at my ticket and let me thru without even a query, much to the annoyance of the watching ticket office guy. When I pointed out that someone needed to retrain the ticket office chap the man just followed me thru the barrier and left the station with me, leaving both the barrier unmanned the the ticket office guy still clueless! Apparently SWT aren't the only ones with clueless ticket office staff.

 

[bb21]

That is shocking. It needs to be brought to the attention of LU management. It's not as if it is such an obscure ticket that no one is aware of.

 

[Daniel]

Won't comment much on this as I'm sure we all know the validity of the ticket, yourself understanding the +Any Permitted routing more than most LU staff.

I will suggest that this is something which is directed towards LU Customer Services as either as a member of staff or a passenger I wouldn't accept being treated like that.

 

[RJ]

Obviously this is ok as long as I don't mind walking on to Waterloo and a + symbol allows 1 tube trip which you can use to a non-rail station in zone 1 if you so choose.

Not in all cases, there are flows that are routed +Not Underground.

 

[embers25]

Really? Can you point me in the direction of one of them as I've only ever seen "London Not underground" which is on fares such as those with logical non tube routes such as Woking to Dartford where the logical route is Waterloo-Waterloo East so no tube needed. These tickets do not have the + either. The + is only there to indicate includes underground so if these tickets you talk of do exist (and nothing would surprise me when it comes to ticket routings) they are wrongly labelled and ATOC need to fix them immediately.

 

[RJ]

Really? Can you point me in the direction of one of them as I've only ever seen "London Not underground" which is on fares such as those with logical non tube routes such as Woking to Dartford where the logical route is Waterloo-Waterloo East so no tube needed. These tickets do not have the + either. The + is only there to indicate includes underground so if these tickets you talk of do exist (and nothing would surprise me when it comes to ticket routings) they are wrongly labelled and ATOC need to fix them immediately.

One example of +Not Underground is Kentish Town to Balham, conceivable as Snow Hill comes under the definition of Cross London transfer. Several +Not London flows have appeared, one theory is that London Overground might become included in the routes permitted by use Cross London definition like the DLR. Stratford and stations east within London to South/South East London have this as an option. At present fares like Stratford - Clapham High Street +Not London can give bizarre routes via West Ham, Limehouse, Shadwell, Croydon and Battersea.
I suspect that these flows from East London to South East London are intended on the DLR via Greenwich, Lewisham or Woolwich.

What confuses me about the sudden recent appearance of these routes is that there is no corresponding Oyster Not London
(i.e pink reader) route in the Fares Finder.
Although in the above example I suspect that DLR to Lewisham then to Denmark Hill is the intended route, I'm sure you can go via London as long as you're on the Tube, i.e Stratford - Balham LU via Bank, nothing in the FRPP's Cross London page says much about forbidden Tube routes other than stating that + marked tickets can't be used to deviate to any random place on the LU network.

 

[embers25]

From Nationalrail:

"If your journey involves travelling via, or across London, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on Tube, Docklands Light Railway or First Capital Connect services between the relevant main London stations.

For example - a Brighton to York ticket is valid on either Underground services between Victoria and Kings Cross/St Pancras or on First Capital Connect services via St. Pancras International.

To check if the cost of travel across London is included in your ticket, look for the ‘†' symbol which will be shown in the tickets ‘Route' information, e.g. [‘†' ANY PERMITTED]

Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made

You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another ticket.

List of London Tube / DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used -subject to route of the through journey being made.

Aldgate
Amersham
Baker Street
Balham
Bank
Barking
Blackfriars #
Blackhorse Road
Canada Water
Cannon Street
Charing Cross
Ealing Broadway
Edgware Road
Elephant &*Castle
Embankment
Euston
Euston Square
Farringdon
Finsbury Park
Greenwich DLR
Highbury & Islington
Kensington Olympia
Kentish Town
Kings Cross / St Pancras
Lancaster Gate
Lewisham DLR
Limehouse
Liverpool Street
London Bridge
Mansion House *
Marylebone
Moorgate
Old Street
Paddington
Queens Park
Richmond
Seven Sisters
Shadwell
Shepherds Bush
Southwark
Stratford
Temple *
Tottenham Hale
Tower Hill
Upminster
Vauxhall
Victoria
Walthamstow Central
Waterloo
West Brompton
West Ham
West Hampstead
Whitechapel
Wimbledon
Woolwich Arsenal DLR

# Blackfriars Underground station is closed until 2011 as part of the Thameslink Programme.
* Tickets are also valid at these stations during the closure of Blackfriars Underground station"

So cleary you shouldn't ever get +Not Underground and indeed St Pancras to Brighton is routed Not Underground correctly without the +

In the case given from Kentish Town to Balham I can see the logic given there is a parallel tube journey possible but that is still wrong as it should say either London Not Underground or better still Route City Thameslink

Also one other question relating to the ELL is what about West Croydon to Romford for example. Can I use ELL to Shadwell then change to DLR to Bank and then tube to Liv St???

 

[Jonny]

Clueless ticket office staff...

well that's the price of "full employment" - they really are the only staff you can get. A major problem in the former NSE area and a few other metropolis-es (witness the thread on G4S/Manchester elsewhere on this board).

 

[Mojo]

Break of journey (ie. exiting the station and resuming your journey later is not allowed). However you may exit at any LU station on a reasonable route between your London terminals (eg. Warren Street) but you are not permitted to re enter the LU network with that ticket to resume your journey. You either have to pay for Tube/omnibus travel, Boris Bike, walk, taxi, helicopter, etc. to your terminal to resume your journey by BR

 

[wibble]

One example of +Not Underground is Kentish Town to Balham

Is this linked to the Thameslink work at weekends where the central core is closed for engineering work? London Underground may have set their gates to accept this ticket at weekends only...

 

[RJ]

Is this linked to the Thameslink work at weekends where the central core is closed for engineering work? London Underground may have set their gates to accept this ticket at weekends only...

More likely to do with the fact that the Snow Hill tunnel is recognised as a valid route for Cross London transfer. Several flows within London that may require travel via the Snow Hill tunnel i.e the area bounded by Coulsdon South/St Mary Cray/Chelsfield etc. to MML stations up to Elstree have +Not Underground as a route.