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AlexS

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Before anyone goes off on one at Lucazone for being known as KujuAdam on UKTS, may I just say as a moderator at the time of UKTS that it wasn't his choice to adopt this moniker, it was a condition of his being able to use the Kuju forum in an official capacity. We requested at the time that he didn't disclose his former identity on the forum of Lucazone for various reasons which aren't any body elses business.
 
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Metroland

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And just to put the record straight. Like Geoff Mayo, I'm in the credits as well, having given them information on signalling practice. While yes, they did choose to ignore it to the overall detriment of the product in my view, I do think people are focussing on the negatives rather than the positives.

The negatives are simply this:

- The manual is only around 20 pages and is poor. There are PDF documents in the files, but they are don't really improve on much.
- The signalling and activities are limited and poor. But who knows what the activity editor does? Perhaps RSD would like to enlighten us. However, and this is the most important point, looking at the scripts an awful lot can be sorted out.
- There are some minor bugs and a couple of major ones - namely the passengers not always appearing and things like coal always flowing at loading points.
- There are a couple of of annoying things, like switching the acceleration and deceleration' keys about, and poor information on timetables and train start info.
- Perhaps some of the interface can be improved with a track monitor, and MSTS style timetables.

Almost all of that can be sorted out in time I would suspect. It's extremely short sighted writing things off at this stage based on the above.

On the subject of Paddington signalling, yes it is completely wrong. In fact the person that installed it, clearly doesn't fully understand the subject, or, as I suspect it is installed in such a way to limit the problems they had with it.

How many people here know, that when the signalling system was commissioned in the 1990s outside Paddington, there were huge problems with the Automatic route setting routing trains towards each other? So it doesn't surprise me there are problems with this, as BR got it wrong themselves.

Some of the other stuff is subjective. Take the 166 turbo sounds. How many people have been in a 166 cab? I'll tell you now, you can hardly hear the engines.

Other stuff is a misunderstanding of the technology. The cabs are made in 3ds max, and textured with part photo part drawn texture - as per standard nearly all 3d games. MSTS 2, if it appears, will be the same. It is not possible with current technology to produce a completely photo realistic cab in real time. Normal and specular maps are used, but real time caustics, ray tracing, and many other things that go to make computer generated images more realistic are only just filtering through the real time. And most people don't have the computers to run them. Train simulators are extremely demanding on graphics and processing. So what is a developer to do? Have everything very detailed, which requires a computer only a few can run, and hence a lot lower sales? Or drop the demands very slightly?

Y'see it's all very well getting nasty and sounding off at people, but we all need to sit back and take stock and remember what MSTS and Trainz were like on release.

Actually, KRS is miles above MSTS and Trainz graphically, whatever anyone else says. It's not going to suit everyone, but MSTS used 256 colour dithered mapping, which is one of the reasons it looks quite simplistic. KRS is not miles above trainz technically, but certainly it's actually a nice experience, the trains do feel solid and real. I would recommend the game to people, and if they sit tight, and learn a few tricks, in time some very nice stuff will come along I'm sure.

It does not benefit anyone ranting about things, it's really not going to create an atmosphere that is conducive to mutual improvement, and that's what we all want, right? And please, forget the idea of routes with everything modelled, because it's just not going to happen. Maybe in a couple of decades on modern routes with satellite technology, but never on historical routes.
 

GeoffM

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From my perspective, the prospect of a train simulation game that evolves from the effort of a vastly knowledgable community with backup and support of it developers, has the potential to be a much greater success than has previously been seen.

Im involved, and I would encourage as many others to engage as well! There was previously talk of a 'Community Sim', and I think this is as close to that concept as we can get.

Well... we did. And we weren't listened to, even those of us "official" subject matter experts. In the SME forums we repeatedly asked, on our own time and money, to see the betas - even at your offices so there'd be no leak - so we could check that the basics were covered.

Whilst there are some excellent features in Rail Sim (I particularly like the station roof at Newcastle), if you get a green signal and then crash because the points were set the wrong way, then the simulation is fundamentally flawed and unusable. Or get a green signal followed by a red signal. We could have told you that was wrong long before you released it.

Most other things, like leaves (and the entire forest) on the line, wheels turning the wrong way, the wrong number of rivets on a steam loco, I can live with. If you can't drive because the signalling's all wrong, then I have a problem.

My only hope is that it's just the data that is flawed, and not the program logic itself. If the former then at least the professionals can fix it. If it's the latter...

Geoff M.
 

Dave A

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As said before everyone is welcome to voice their oppinions. Of course, they are not listened to in any official capacity here. Support facilities and a forum are available on the Rail Simulator website for anyone to seek assistance and offer advice.

That's all well and good but you don't even give answers there, you just end up deleting any posts that make you look remotely bad.

From my perspective, the prospect of a train simulation game that evolves from the effort of a vastly knowledgable community with backup and support of it developers, has the potential to be a much greater success than has previously been seen.

As already said, you have not listened to those more knowledgeable though. You have not taken on anything from the community either. And you have not given us the product we are paying for!

Im involved, and I would encourage as many others to engage as well! There was previously talk of a 'Community Sim', and I think this is as close to that concept as we can get.

A "community sim" is all well and good, when the base of the thing is good enough in the first place!

Actually, KRS is miles above MSTS and Trainz graphically, whatever anyone else says. It's not going to suit everyone, but MSTS used 256 colour dithered mapping, which is one of the reasons it looks quite simplistic. KRS is not miles above trainz technically, but certainly it's actually a nice experience, the trains do feel solid and real.

I can agree with that, but that's to be expected. Yes, it does look nice and yes, it does feel more realistic, but its the bugs that let it down.

It does not benefit anyone ranting about things, it's really not going to create an atmosphere that is conducive to mutual improvement, and that's what we all want, right?

I believe letting people know what this sim is like is the least we can do, so they don't waste their money. The ranting in this thread has been pretty helpful on that I think. We've had the people who helped develop it say how they've been ignored (a good start). The people who have bought it explain how much trouble they've had with it. And a person from Kuju who, although not officially representing them here, continues to use the word "community", when Kuju themselves haven't, and still aren't, listening to this "community" they're meant to be targeting.

I think some are missing the point though. If I was new to train sims and bought Rail Simulator, I would be very confused. Its "out of box" state is so bad it shouldn't be sold like that. And its the same for those experienced, wanting to get on with making the add-ons. The tools aren't there to do it, and the bugs in the game make doing what they can, very difficult.

My opinion is that Kuju have used the community. They've known most people would just buy it for the sake of it, and they know there's nothing they can do about it, aside from putting it on eBay or various other means which will lose them money, as most places don't do returns on PC games any more... :-?
 

Metroland

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I can totally and fully sympathise with the view that people are disappointed to an extent. As Geoff Mayo so eloquently puts it ‘If you can't drive because the signalling's all wrong, then I have a problem.’ Then yes from that point of view it is flawed. I asked for a beta many times, probably to the point of total annoyance at their end, I like others could have pointed this stuff out a long time ago. Who knows what the thinking was a Kuju? I agree with the views that are expensed on that point.

At this juncture, however, when the product is released, I don’t think a mass ebaying of RS is going to help, however tempting to do so. I don’t think ranting at Adam Lucas and Derek Siddle is going to help. They are cogs in the wheel like everyone else. The perception is often wrong by consumers is that producers don’t care about their product. They are just they are just they to make money. And money rules the day! This Daily Mailesque view may have some truth, because in the real world money does feature, because bills have to be paid. That’s probably the reason things have been missed out. And yes, they should have given more prominence to the ops side rather than eye candy, which is not the makings of any great game - at least a long lasting one. Guessing, I think they know that now.

However, I would strongly urge people to engage with them at this time. I hope they do listen, because people clearly have become frustrated in the past (myself and many others) with the great wall that has gone up. But I think we can all agree, we would prefer to see this as a success for the future of the hobby, rather than just some terrible mistake, the details we keep hidden away in the cupboard.
 

GeoffM

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I don’t think ranting at Adam Lucas and Derek Siddle is going to help. They are cogs in the wheel like everyone else.

Indeed, but these are the only two to stick their heads above the parapet, and those that appear get shot at. It's not fair, it's not right, but they're our unofficial voice and we're just hoping that they notice us outside.

In fact, to be fair to Adam - I'm assuming this is the same KujuAdam on the SME forums - he was pretty much the only one at Kuju's end using the signalling SME forum (I can't speak for the other SME forums).

But I think we can all agree, we would prefer to see this as a success for the future of the hobby, rather than just some terrible mistake, the details we keep hidden away in the cupboard.

That's probably part of the problem. We want this to be a success, and perhaps our expectations were too high. Even though we're unpaid, we're helping a company make money... well, except since release when it's been discussed to death in multiple forums!

Geoff M.
 

Metroland

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Well the people that created KRS at Kuju have switched to Railsim developments. Not entirely sure whether it's an accounting exercise, a limited liability one, or because they want to provide ongoing support, or all three.
 

Donny Dave

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Now everyone has had a rant, and it's all settled down again, I'm locking this topic to stop it all flaring up again.
 
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