Warning from South West Trains

[euanovsky]

I*was caught recently by a rail officer at Worcester Park on my way to Waterloo. I got a ticket from Epsom to Ewell East (weekly ticket) and then I went to tap my oyster card at Worcester Park so essentially travelling between Ewell West to Worcester Park without a valid ticket. l'd normally have bought a ticket but I was in a rush (which is not an excuse).*

The rail officer took my details in his notebook and then spoke to his colleague (which I presume to be his superior) and his superior said "Give her a warning". I was very apologetic and the officer told me fare evasion is a criminal offense and asked me not to do it again. i didn't get a fine on the spot.

Does that mean that's all or will l be getting a warning letter with fine or will I be prosecuted? I still haven't heard anything from them yet and I'm worried I'll get the letter soon when I'm away for a two week holiday...

 

[455driver]

It sounds like that is the end of the matter, your details would have been checked to ensure you were not "on the system" for a previous offence, which would appear to be the case but you will now be "on the system" and wont get another warning so please ensure you travel with valid tickets in future.

If you do get a letter it will basically state the above, just in more detail.

 

[euanovsky]

It sounds like that is the end of the matter, your details would have been checked to ensure you were not "on the system" for a previous offence, which would appear to be the case but you will now be "on the system" and wont get another warning so please ensure you travel with valid tickets in future.

If you do get a letter it will basically state the above, just in more detail.

Thanks for your reply.

But I didn't pay any penalty fare at all though - would they not want to get at least the usual £20?

 

[455driver]

it sounds like they let you off with just the warning and nothing to pay, I presume you remained honest, polite and courteous at all times and you didnt muck them around, that would have had a large bearing on their course of action.

Breath a sigh of relief and go shopping with the £20 they could/should have charged you.

 

[euanovsky]

it sounds like they let you off with just the warning and nothing to pay, I presume you remained honest, polite and courteous at all times and you didnt muck them around, that would have had a large bearing on their course of action.

Breath a sigh of relief and go shopping with the £20 they could/should have charged you.

Many thanks for your reply - I think they were in a hurry to get off in the next stop also helps!

Yes I definitely would rather be late than to go through with this ordeal again!

 

[bb21]

I agree with 455driver. It sounded very much like you have been let off this time.

Next time you are caught "doughnutting" I am almost certain that a prosecution under Section 5.3(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act would follow, which on conviction would result in a criminal record, so consider this your very final warning.

 

[bnm]

"doughnutting"?

Only ever seen this term used here on RailUK. I always thought that buying two short journey tickets at either end of a longer journey was known as "dumb-belling".

Can't work out the visual allegory when calling it 'doughnutting'. :-?

 

[euanovsky]

I agree with 455driver. It sounded very much like you have been let off this time.

Next time you are caught "doughnutting" I am almost certain that a prosecution under Section 5.3(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act would follow, which on conviction would result in a criminal record, so consider this your very final warning.

Thank you for both of your inputs.

I'm still wary of ending up with a letter summoning to court after reading some other threads of this forum. But I guess I'll have to wait..

This is definitely a very good lesson...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thank you for both of your inputs.

I'm still wary of ending up with a letter summoning to court after reading some other threads of this forum. But I guess I'll have to wait..

This is definitely a very good lesson...

Government estimates that £250 million a year is "lost" in fare evasion (how they know so precisely I don't know!) and that if this was all collected it would help reduce the taxpayer bill for the railways. The TOCs are under pressure to do this, however it costs to collect revenue a "closed system" from first train to last train on most stations apart from in deep rural areas would all but eliminate the problem however the overall cost of doing so would probably have a neutral effect on railway finances at best and maybe be even more costly than the extra fares it would collect.
Therefore random sweeps and checks and a hard line on prosecutions is preferred as its hoped that the publicity of people being made examples off will deter others and the £250 million will find its way into railway coffers without too much outlay in revenue protection.

 

[edwin_m]

"doughnutting"?

Only ever seen this term used here on RailUK. I always thought that buying two short journey tickets at either end of a longer journey was known as "dumb-belling".

Can't work out the visual allegory when calling it 'doughnutting'. :-?

Something to do with having a ticket for both ends of the journey but a hole in the middle?

 

[Eagle]

Can't work out the visual allegory when calling it 'doughnutting'. :-?

Because of the hole in the middle.

 

[bnm]

Because of the hole in the middle.

But a doughnut ring is circular. Dumb-belled journeys aren't.

 

[bb21]

Cut across the diameter and take the cross-section. You should get the right image then.

 

[Stigy]

Although it looks like the end of the matter, some more detail would be nice. If you were to receive a letter from SWT it will most likely be a warning letter, although I'm afraid SWT won't simply warn you but will be asking for you to pay their admin fees for writing to you. Just want to clarify here, were you questioned under caution? Were these officials revenue staff, or dressed in high visibility clothing? Just wondered as you called them Rail Officers?

 

[euanovsky]

Although it looks like the end of the matter, some more detail would be nice. If you were to receive a letter from SWT it will most likely be a warning letter, although I'm afraid SWT won't simply warn you but will be asking for you to pay their admin fees for writing to you. Just want to clarify here, were you questioned under caution? Were these officials revenue staff, or dressed in high visibility clothing? Just wondered as you called them Rail Officers?

Stingy - I'm not too sure what kind of officer they are but they didn't look like the normal train staff (who usually wear suit). They were dressed in high vis and at first glance I actually thought they were police. They carried bulky items around the waist. But I do not recalling see British Transportation Police on the high vis (I'm honestly not sure).

No I was not cautioned and they did not confiscate anything from me. All they asked me to show them is my oyster card then they asked me if I boarded the train at Dorking, to which I replied no and that I got on from Epsom. I showed him my weekly ticket. He asked me where I was going to and I said Waterloo. I don't recall him jotting anything down while asking me this.

He then asked to see my photocard (presumably to check that I'm the holder of the ticker) and asked me where I live, and I replied, and he asked to see my driving license, which matches the area I told him (he didn't ask me for my exact address). He didn't ask me any more questions after that.

He then walked away with my driving license, tickets, oyster card and photocard to another carriage where they were two more officers (presumably one of them his superior). He came back to me later with one of them (and this is when I heard "giver her a warning").

I think (though I can't remember clearly now) he jotted down my details from my driving licence and then gave everything back to me and told me fare evasion is a criminal offence and asked me not to do it again.

He did not tell me whether I would be expecting a letter or anything. He didn't find me on the spot either and I did not sign anything.

The whole thing took maybe three to five minutes and they left the train on the next stop.

So base on the above information, do you think I'll be getting a letter from them? I have never had any troubles with any train companies before.

Yes sure I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think SWT call them 'Rail Community Officers' but other TOCs have different names. They are a bit like PCSO's but employed by the TOC rather than BTP - who also have their own PCSOs. The RCOs can't issue penalty fares, which I think would almost certainly have been the case if stopped by a proper revenue protection staff member, who as you say would have been dressed in an SWT uniform suit.

 

[Stigy]

Stingy - I'm not too sure what kind of officer they are but they didn't look like the normal train staff (who usually wear suit). They were dressed in high vis and at first glance I actually thought they were police. They carried bulky items around the waist. But I do not recalling see British Transportation Police on the high vis (I'm honestly not sure).

No I was not cautioned and they did not confiscate anything from me. All they asked me to show them is my oyster card then they asked me if I boarded the train at Dorking, to which I replied no and that I got on from Epsom. I showed him my weekly ticket. He asked me where I was going to and I said Waterloo. I don't recall him jotting anything down while asking me this.

He then asked to see my photocard (presumably to check that I'm the holder of the ticker) and asked me where I live, and I replied, and he asked to see my driving license, which matches the area I told him (he didn't ask me for my exact address). He didn't ask me any more questions after that.

He then walked away with my driving license, tickets, oyster card and photocard to another carriage where they were two more officers (presumably one of them his superior). He came back to me later with one of them (and this is when I heard "giver her a warning").

I think (though I can't remember clearly now) he jotted down my details from my driving licence and then gave everything back to me and told me fare evasion is a criminal offence and asked me not to do it again.

He did not tell me whether I would be expecting a letter or anything. He didn't find me on the spot either and I did not sign anything.

The whole thing took maybe three to five minutes and they left the train on the next stop.

So base on the above information, do you think I'll be getting a letter from them? I have never had any troubles with any train companies before.

Yes sure I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for clarifying. From what you have said, I too am now of the view that this is the end of the matter.

As swt_passenger has said, sounds like an RCO, given their uniform, though they don't wear much around their waist, they have a 'tac vest' with pads and equipment etc in it. They also wear a hat with a blue band and have radios attached to them. They do, at a glance, resemble a PCSO. They could have reported you for the offence but would have cautioned you and questioned you about it. They also would have told you they were reporting you to SWT. Seems strange to warn somebody when they probably owe a fare, as the fare remains outstanding. They didn't mention 'Yellow Cards' did they?

 

[euanovsky]

Thanks for clarifying. From what you have said, I too am now of the view that this is the end of the matter.

As swt_passenger has said, sounds like an RCO, given their uniform, though they don't wear much around their waist, they have a 'tac vest' with pads and equipment etc in it. They also wear a hat with a blue band and have radios attached to them. They do, at a glance, resemble a PCSO. They could have reported you for the offence but would have cautioned you and questioned you about it. They also would have told you they were reporting you to SWT. Seems strange to warn somebody when they probably owe a fare, as the fare remains outstanding. They didn't mention 'Yellow Cards' did they?

Thanks for your reply.

No they didn't mention yellow cards - What are they?

They definitely did not caution me and told me what would happen next. They did not offer me to sign anything. They didn't take anything away from me apart from maybe jotting down my driving license details.

I can't remember whether they wore hats (they probably did as I initially thought they were police) but yes they did wear tac vests.

They didn't really ask for my name either - they only asked for where I lived to which I replied with an area which they seemed to be happy with after looking at my driving licence. I think they also checked my oyster card history by tapping it on their machine. No more further questioning apart from asking what I do for a living (sorry didn't mention in the reply above - just remember this!).

Do you think they can come up with a different version of the event and said they cautioned me and/or take me to court?