Walk-on Fares: An alternative perspective...

[Bletchleyite]

For the most part they wouldn't, but on the very busiest trains they would. My point is that saying that London to Edinburgh will never cost more than £80 at weekends regardless of demand isn't helpful.

And I'm saying it's not only helpful but vitally important. Flexibility is important (the car is the primary competitor and is 100% flexible), and while I can cope with compulsory reservation and an "everything Advances but no admin fee" approach so I can readily change my ticket, multiple times if necessary, I don't accept the idea that the fares would be so high near the time of travel that changing a ticket would be unaffordable.

The answer to "I don't like crowded trains" is "you pick one that isn't crowded, then, rather than impinging on others who prefer a busy train than not travelling". Showing on planners which ones are usually crowded would assist you to do that.

What you are also not getting is that most weekend leisure travel is not very flexible - typically much less flexible than business travel. You need to travel out after work Friday and back Sunday afternoon to arrive home somewhere around teatime. Nothing else works. So if you crank fares up at those times, the passengers will drive.

 

[Haywain]

And I'm saying it's not only helpful but vitally important. Flexibility is important (the car is the primary competitor and is 100% flexible), and while I can cope with compulsory reservation and an "everything Advances but no admin fee" approach so I can readily change my ticket, multiple times if necessary, I don't accept the idea that the fares would be so high near the time of travel that changing a ticket would be unaffordable.

The answer to "I don't like crowded trains" is "you pick one that isn't crowded, then, rather than impinging on others who prefer a busy train than not travelling". Showing on planners which ones are usually crowded would assist you to do that.

You're welcome to your opinion, it's just different to mine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're welcome to your opinion, it's just different to mine.

So are you happy to pay a much more Anytime like fare on a Sunday evening/Friday evening, then? If so, have you considered paying it anyway and choosing the less crowded experience of First Class rather than forcing others to do so?

If you'll still have access to Priv or boxes once you (I guess) leave the railway, your opinion, bluntly, doesn't count.

 

[Haywain]

So are you happy to pay a much more Anytime like fare on a Sunday evening/Friday evening, then? If so, have you considered paying it anyway and choosing the less crowded experience of First Class rather than forcing others to do so?

If you'll still have access to Priv or boxes once you (I guess) leave the railway, your opinion, bluntly, doesn't count.

You're very selective in what you read, aren't you? If you read all of my post you would see that I have covered those points.

 

[yorksrob]

For the most part they wouldn't, but on the very busiest trains they would. My point is that saying that London to Edinburgh will never cost more than £80 at weekends regardless of demand isn't helpful. And, if anything, allowing flexibility would allow demand to be pushed toward what are currently peak trains at fares more akin to Off Peak levels. From a personal perspective, I like flexibility but I hate packed trains, and I know that in a year or two I'll being paying public fares so I have an interest in how things pan out.

That does seem to be a market that first class at a reasonable priced differential should serve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does seem to be a market that first class at a reasonable priced differential should serve.

Avanti's Standard Premium solves a lot of issues of this kind, I don't get the hate for it.

 

[yorksrob]

Avanti's Standard Premium solves a lot of issues of this kind, I don't get the hate for it.

I must admit I'm not on the route often enough to use it.

 

[tornado]

Avanti's Standard Premium solves a lot of issues of this kind, I don't get the hate for it.

Because the standard prices for virtually every Avanti service are always sky-high unless you book 4+ weeks before. So +£25/30 on top of an already inflated price isn't good value.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the standard prices for virtually every Avanti service are always sky-high unless you book 4+ weeks before. So +£25/30 on top of an already inflated price isn't good value.

Avanti Off Peaks are about 5-10% cheaper than most other IC TOCs due to a historical quirk.

 

[Starmill]

For the most part they wouldn't, but on the very busiest trains they would. My point is that saying that London to Edinburgh will never cost more than £80 at weekends regardless of demand isn't helpful.

Indeed. This has of course been the internal view at VTEC then LNER for quite a few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. This has of course been the internal view at VTEC then LNER for quite a few years.

I'm sure they'd love to be an airline but fortunately they're not.

 

[Watershed]

Avanti's Standard Premium solves a lot of issues of this kind, I don't get the hate for it.

On weekdays, I think it's a perfectly reasonably priced service, and certainly a lot more attractive than the now ludicrously overpriced First.

However it is primarily aimed at the leisure market, which is far weaker on most weekdays than on Friday evenings and weekends. So it seems somewhat of a conflicted product on weekdays.

On weekends, Avanti have managed to pull off a wheeze whereby they charge more than they used to charge for Weekend First, for an inferior service.

Of course on Friday evenings and weekends, leisure demand has recovered strongly. On numerous recent occasions, I have seen 2 or even 3 carriages full to their comfortable capacity - bearing in mind that with Standard Premium, part of the 'service'/appeal is that you are likely to have two seats to yourself.

In turn, this has meant that First Class passengers are crammed into just ½ or 1½ coaches - not necessarily the luxury service they were expecting, and which they will have paid rather a lot of money for!

In short, Avanti have found a great way of charging more for less, as well as p***ing off a lot of their First Class customers (and/or convincing them to save the expense of First and simply use Standard Premium instead). Rather an own goal, if you ask me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course on Friday evenings and weekends, leisure demand has recovered strongly. On numerous recent occasions, I have seen 2 or even 3 carriages full to their comfortable capacity - bearing in mind that with Standard Premium, part of the 'service'/appeal is that you are likely to have two seats to yourself.

Is it? I generally go for the 1 side, indeed I'd not upgrade at all when travelling solo if a 1 side seat wasn't available.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed. This has of course been the internal view at VTEC then LNER for quite a few years.

I stress again that my comments are a personal view, and not necessarily how I would like things to pan out in an ideal world.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure they'd love to be an airline but fortunately they're not.

Indeed. If they'd wanted to be an airline, they should have gone and worked for one.

 

[plugwash]

I dunno about other people, but when it's a Sunday or bank holiday monday evening after a long weekend event, and i'm tired and 3 hours from home I don't want to be waiting for specific trains or messing around changing my ticket. I just want to jump on the next train that will let me make progress towards home.

People put up with airline bull**** because airlines are so much faster than any other means of transport a normal person has access to that even with the bull**** flying is still the fastest option.

 

[Ianno87]

Here is an example form this morning of the slating the railway gets from not managing walk-on tickets:

https://twitter.com/JamboC07/status/1461962852898639876?t=PjxPtbIf-oMgQdm3Op_u-g&s=19

@LNER I did reserve a seat but you’ve sold too many tickets for the train and haven’t honoured it so now I’ve got to stand and look at this for 4 hours. What a joke https://t.co/xFLgcEwUEN

Literally using the expression "You've sold too many tickets!".

I even notice Roger Ford starting to agitate in Modern Railways that 'quality' needs to be more important going forward: "Pack 'em on" for long distance services fast becoming unacceptable.

 

[yorksrob]

Here is an example form this morning of the slating the railway gets from not managing walk-on tickets:

https://twitter.com/JamboC07/status/1461962852898639876?t=PjxPtbIf-oMgQdm3Op_u-g&s=19

Literally using the expression "You've sold too many tickets!".

I even notice Roger Ford starting to agitate in Modern Railways that 'quality' needs to be more important going forward: "Pack 'em on" for long distance services fast becoming unacceptable.

Given that most people can't afford walk on tickets, I wonder whether the incident in question was due to previous cancellations.

 

[miklcct]

"Pack 'em on" for long distance services fast becoming unacceptable.

This is the only way to manage the ever growing amount of commuters on long distance lines, such as London - Reading.

 

[Hadders]

Here is an example form this morning of the slating the railway gets from not managing walk-on tickets:

https://twitter.com/JamboC07/status/1461962852898639876?t=PjxPtbIf-oMgQdm3Op_u-g&s=19

Literally using the expression "You've sold too many tickets!".

I even notice Roger Ford starting to agitate in Modern Railways that 'quality' needs to be more important going forward: "Pack 'em on" for long distance services fast becoming unacceptable.

What we don't know is whether there were more people on the train because of an earlier cancallation, or whether the reservations simply hadn't been displayed.

 

[Ianno87]

Given that most people can't afford walk on tickets, I wonder whether the incident in question was due to previous cancellations.

What we don't know is whether there were more people on the train because of an earlier cancallation, or whether the reservations simply hadn't been displayed.

*Sigh*

Merely just an example, countering the claims of those people on this forum who claim such Tweets don't exist. Don't shoot the messenger...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2021 ==

Given that most people can't afford walk on tickets,

But yet you absolutely believe they should be protected regardless?

Takes us back to the tread title - if trains are full and standing anyway if "most people" are on Advances... are walk-up tickets even relevant any more?

 

[Hadders]

*Sigh*

Merely just an example, countering the claims of those people on this forum who claim such Tweets don't exist. Don't shoot the messenger...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2021 ==



But yet you absolutely believe they should be protected regardless?

There is no simple solution to this, but if walk on tickets get removed all the tickets will get sold but trains will then travel around with several empty seats. We'll then get tweets saying 'I can't buy a ticket as the train's fully booked but it left with loads of empty seats...'

 

[Ianno87]

There is no simple solution to this, but if walk on tickets get removed all the tickets will get sold but trains will then travel around with several empty seats. We'll then get tweets saying 'I can't buy a ticket as the train's fully booked but it left with loads of empty seats...'

Why would train be simultaneously fully booked and leave with empty seats? Why would a passenger be at a station in time for a train they know before travelling to the station is already full?

If you're talking about no-shows, then that can be managed by enabling last-minute re-booking via a Phone App or whatever.

 

[Hadders]

Why would train be simultaneously fully booked and leave with empty seats? Why would a passenger be at a station in time for a train they know before travelling to the station is already full?

If you're talking about no-shows, then that can be managed by enabling last-minute re-booking via a Phone App or whatever.

We're getting into compulosry reservations territory which we had a whole thread on recently so this thread probably isn't the place to re-open that debate.

 

[Haywain]

Given that most people can't afford walk on tickets, I wonder whether the incident in question was due to previous cancellations.

The level of sales suggests that is far from true.

If you're talking about no-shows, then that can be managed by enabling last-minute re-booking via a Phone App or whatever.

Or by a controlled level of overselling.

 

[yorksrob]

*Sigh*

Merely just an example, countering the claims of those people on this forum who claim such Tweets don't exist. Don't shoot the messenger...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2021 ==



But yet you absolutely believe they should be protected regardless?

Takes us back to the tread title - if trains are full and standing anyway if "most people" are on Advances... are walk-up tickets even relevant any more?

No, I believe they should be sensibly priced - as with the continental examples cited earlier on.

 

[Ianno87]

No, I believe they should be sensibly priced - as with the continental examples cited earlier on.

But trains are full and standing at current fares levels - what on earth sense would it make to reduce them?

 

[yorksrob]

But trains are full and standing at current fares levels - what on earth sense would it make to reduce them?

They seem to manage it abroad.

Perhaps it's just a fact of life that current loadings aren't primarily driven by walk on fares.

 

[Ianno87]

They seem to manage it abroad.

Perhaps it's just a fact of life that current loadings aren't primarily driven by walk on fares.

And of course Advance Fares and Walk-on travel are no longer mutually exclusive.

 

[yorksrob]

And of course Advance Fares and Walk-on travel are no longer mutually exclusive.

When one looks at the initiatives being undertaken on the continent, such as Austria's climate ticket, it seems depressing that will be stuck with the treasures insistence on pretending to run a 'commercial' railway.