Wales Rail, re schedule?

[cymro inside]

the plan is to build a big car park in the field on the down side at llanfairpwll,the proposed train times are xx 30 past the hour from LLangefni to LLandudno Junction and xx 30 returning from the Junction, 2 class 150s required.now there is a 200 million pound hole in the education budget I cant see it happening,the good news is that Bangor station car park opens in just over 2 weeks with 140 new spaces.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Holyhead isn't the only station beyond Bangor, why not build car parking spaces at Llanfairpwll, instead of building a new line to serve a village?

I must be getting brave in my old age to correct you, but can I state that you are incorrect in your comment when you refer to "building a new line" to serve a village. Whilst passenger services ceased in 1964, goods trains to the Octel plant at Amlwch ran until 1993. All the track is still in situ. You make reference to a village...there are a number of villages that are in the area of Llangefni, so I am unaware of which one that you make reference to.

Llangefni is the county town of Anglesey and contains the principal offices of Ynys Mon County Council. It has a livestock market and a slaughterhouse that reflects the farming nature of the region.

There is a far more fuller and more detailed posting that has already been made by cymro inside on the 10th of July that I will let speak for itself. This posting is merely supplemental to the periphery of that posting and in no way makes a case for any project and should be read and viewed as such.

 

[tbtc]

I must be getting brave in my old age to correct you, but can I state that you are incorrect in your comment when you refer to "building a new line" to serve a village. Whilst passenger services ceased in 1964, goods trains to the Octel plant at Amlwch ran until 1993. All the track is still in situ. You make reference to a village...there are a number of villages that are in the area of Llangefni, so I am unaware of which one that you make reference to.

Llangefni is the county town of Anglesey and contains the principal offices of Ynys Mon County Council. It has a livestock market and a slaughterhouse that reflects the farming nature of the region.

There is a far more fuller and more detailed posting that has already been made by cymro inside on the 10th of July that I will let speak for itself. This posting is merely supplemental to the periphery of that posting and in no way makes a case for any project and should be read and viewed as such.

Okay, its a town of over four thousand people with a busy slaughterhouse (the hundred and second biggest place in Wales!). But reopening lines doesn't come cheap, even when the track is still there (assuming it doesn't need any replacement) - the high cost of the Todmorden Curve shows how expensive these things get (plus the Todmorden costs didn't require opening a new station, which this scheme clearly would).

Sorry, but it seems like a pretty marginal case at best. Then again, after the demands for Carnforth to have direct fast London trains, there's a lot of these "fairytale" ideas around at the moment...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Llangefni is the county town of Anglesey and contains the principal offices of Ynys Mon County Council. It has a livestock market and a slaughterhouse that reflects the farming nature of the region.



If the line ever gets built and anyone fancy's going to Llangefni beware - if the wind is in the wrong direction the whole town including Ynys Mon CC HQ stinks of the slaughterhouse.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't really see much chance of opening the line to Llangefni either. Opening the line all the way to Amlwch might make more sense, as would re-opening the Bangor - Caernarfon line (although there's no track there) but with all the cuts none sound very likely at the moment, unless item 93 in the previous minister's National Transport Plan "Increase the capacity of the A55 across the Menai, including capacity for walkers and cyclists." would otherwise go ahead and would cost as much as the re-opening. If so, you could have the re-opening instead.

It doesn't matter anyway, even extra Holyhead - Llandudno services would be very likely to hit the brick wall of rolling stock shortages. ValleyLines electrification would hold the solution, freeing up some 150s, so that has to come first. The Heads Of The Valleys Road scheme, 1 extra lane for about 16.7 miles, must be cutback to pay for electrification (£600,000,000 would buy you over 420 miles of electrification at £1,400,000 per mile (estimated from the cost of wring Swansea - Cardiff that has been branded about)). Somebody on here, Gareth Marston I think, told me the first £300,000,000 has already be signed away.

However, could the other half be brought back up to £600m by EU match funding? Wiring the ValleyLines (inc. Swansea - Cardiff for Swanline services) would come to about £252,112,000. I'd add the Cardiff - Cheltenham Spa services too, which if the DfT can be persuaded to wire to Cheltenham from Swindon (£60,900,000) (and therefore the bit of line from Gloucester to Cheltenham), would set WAG back around £308,112,000. The EU funding is needed because, on top of the wiring, we need EMUs to use the wires. A fleet of class 377 (or preferably a new, lighter, version that is basically otherwise the same) units would do nicely. That'd be about £201,300,000 for 183 coaches (61 3-car units, 61 units being the size of ATW's current 150 + Pacer fleet according to wikipedia, but in reality a mix of 2-car and 3-car units would probably work better).

By the way, is the rail bridge across the Menai wide enough for double track or is it single because you can't fit double track on there? Not really relevant to the post, just something I was wondering a while back that just popped into my head.

 

[merlodlliw]

By the way, is the rail bridge across the Menai wide enough for double track or is it single because you can't fit double track on there? Not really relevant to the post, just something I was wondering a while back that just popped into my head.[/QUOTE]

It is apparently wide enough for dual tracks, but singled due to technical reasons when they removed the tubes 40 years ago, talk is ongoing to extend the upper piers to dual carriageway status in place of a third bridge, by car its an awful pinch point after the Anglesey Show, tail backs for miles going East,

Bob

 

[cymro inside]

to redouble the track across the Brit Br is possible however it would mean relocating the various pipes that utilities have placed on the former up line trackbed,in the 1978 timetable at about lunchtime there were 7 trains booked across the bridge in one hour so redoubling isnt required at the moment.

 

[jones_bangor]

By the way, is the rail bridge across the Menai wide enough for double track or is it single because you can't fit double track on there? Not really relevant to the post, just something I was wondering a while back that just popped into my head.

It is apparently wide enough for dual tracks, but singled due to technical reasons when they removed the tubes 40 years ago, talk is ongoing to extend the upper piers to dual carriageway status in place of a third bridge, by car its an awful pinch point after the Anglesey Show, tail backs for miles going East,

There's a great big mains water pipe on the bed of the "second" line.

In terms of the road, adding a double deck (or triple if you count the rail deck) isn't at all feasible, as the bridge structure can't take the extra weight. Hence a second bridge would have to be built.

 

[Gareth Marston]

(although the The Heads Of The Valleys Road scheme, 1 extra lane for about 16.7 miles, must be cutback to pay for electrification (£600,000,000 would buy you over 420 miles of electrification at £1,400,000 per mile (estimated from the cost of wring Swansea - Cardiff that has been branded about)). Somebody on here, Gareth Marston I think, told me the first £300,000,000 has already be signed away.

However, could the other half be brought back up to £600m by EU match funding? Wiring the ValleyLines (inc. Swansea - Cardiff for Swanline services) would come to about £252,112,000. I'd add the Cardiff - Cheltenham Spa services too, which if the DfT can be persuaded to wire to Cheltenham from Swindon (£60,900,000) (and therefore the bit of line from Gloucester to Cheltenham), would set WAG back around £308,112,000. The EU funding is needed because, on top of the wiring, we need EMUs to use the wires. A fleet of class 377 (or preferably a new, lighter, version that is basically otherwise the same) units would do nicely. That'd be about £201,300,000 for 183 coaches (61 3-car units, 61 units being the size of ATW's current 150 + Pacer fleet according to wikipedia, but in reality a mix of 2-car and 3-car units would probably work better).

First Minister is on record as being lukewarm at using eu money for Swansea and insisting Westminster pays for Valley Lines electrification. The A465 work has been procured specifying local firms using local contractors - of interest re Thameslink situation It may employ a few hundred valley bods for a few years on a relative good wage but what the road spend does for area in long term is perhaps questionable and there is the opportunity cost of it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

First Minister is on record as being lukewarm at using EU money for Swansea and insisting Westminster pays for Valley Lines electrification.

What is the problem with EU finance for this project, that makes First Minister so reticent to consider this? There are EU monies for smaller European Community areas that cover specific area regeneration, that are very much applicable for areas that were a major coal producer in times of the past.

 

[Rhydgaled]

First Minister is on record as being lukewarm at using eu money for Swansea and insisting Westminster pays for Valley Lines electrification.

Is the man mad? If Westminster won't even pay for Swansea what hope is there that they will pay for the ValleyLines wiring? I suppose if WAG use the remaining half of the A465 money to order a fleet of rolling stock then Westminster would look a bit daft not buying the wires that enable the WAG to use their new trains. Other than that I don't see it being very easy to claw any money out of Westminster, which is why I suggested WAG paying for wires out to Gloucester to try and get the Severn Tunnel Diversionary route wired, which alongside wires from Swansea to Cardiff would be the nail in the coffin for bi-mode IEP.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Opening the line all the way to Amlwch might make more sense, as would re-opening the Bangor - Caernarfon line (although there's no track there) but with all the cuts none sound very likely at the moment, unless item 93 in the previous minister's National Transport Plan "Increase the capacity of the A55 across the Menai, including capacity for walkers and cyclists." would otherwise go ahead and would cost as much as the re-opening. If so, you could have the re-opening instead.

Was the Bangor to Caernarfon line ever part of WAG discussions over the last two years?

 

[jones_bangor]

Was the Bangor to Caernarfon line ever part of WAG discussions over the last two years?

Not really. This is, in my reading of the situation, considered a "nice to do". Current rerfurbishment of Bangot Stn will benefit Caernarfon.

 

[krus_aragon]

Not really. This is, in my reading of the situation, considered a "nice to do". Current rerfurbishment of Bangot Stn will benefit Caernarfon.

I understand that some of the original alignment has been lost under the Felinheli bypass, and under the Safeways/Morrissons supermarket at Caernarfon.

 

[cymro inside]

it would be a big job as it would also have to dive under the a55 Bangor bypass that leads onto the Britannia Br.also under the Felinheli bypass near the former site of Port Siding signalbox, not to mention a new bridge over the old main road in Felinheli,regional railways looked into this in the late 1980s and the cost then was 9 million,I fear you would not get change from 50 million now,a great shame that it was closed in 1970.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The idea of re-opening such lines is usually with people old enough to have used these lines for work travel and tourism in days long ago. I am sure that there are those on the forum who have travelled to Amlwch, Afon Wen, Caernarvon, Llanberis, etc.

It is when the cost of re-instating these lines, as has been made clear in the postings above, with the detailed summaries of work involved, that reality has to surface.

The preservation movement have shown what can be done, over many years, with Llangollen being a good example to quote, where besides serving the needs of the tourist industry, it brings a higher profile to the area concerned. I am sure that if the Windermere branch was ever scheduled for closure, the preservation bodies would be activated immediately.

 

[merlodlliw]

The feasibility study sent to WAG for cost of redoubling seven of the 9 miles is £42millions, leaving shortfall of £12million of the £30millions ring fenced
I have not seen the full study, which was discussed at the Birmingham All Wales Network Rail meeting yesterday.

Anyone know if the study in the full public domain yet. I am also told savings have been identified Between Wrexham & Gobowen by NR which may well cover this shortfall.





Bob

 

[Holly]

The idea of re-opening such lines is usually with people old enough to have used these lines for work travel and tourism in days long ago. I am sure that there are those on the forum who have travelled to Amlwch, Afon Wen, Caernarvon, Llanberis, etc.
It is when the cost of re-instating these lines, as has been made clear in the postings above, with the detailed summaries of work involved, that reality has to surface.

Is there any talk of the narrow gauge people building South of Dinas Jnc, towards Afonwen and Pennychain?

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there any talk of the narrow gauge people building South of Dinas Jnc, towards Afonwen and Pennychain?

That's news to me. The last I knew, their long term aspirations were to extend up to Bangor at some point. So then they'd need to find a new alignment out of Caernarfon and through Felinheli, as well as talk nicely to NR and ask to steal one trackbed from Treborth to Bangor.

 

[merlodlliw]

Here is the Ministers response , sent to me via my A.M. Confirms what I hoped. Taken from a PDF, if anyone wants to see the original please PM me with an e mail address.




Uywodraeth Cymru Welsh Government
Eich cyflYour ref MIITJ/032/1 1 Ein cyfiOur ref CS/0560811 1
Mark Isherwood AM
National Assembly for Wales Ty Hywel
Cardiff Bay
CF99 1 N
Markisherwood@wales.gov.uk
28th July 2011
Dear Mark
Thank you for your letter of 18 June about the re-doubling of rail track between Wrexham and Saitney Junction and the continuation of the two Holyhead - Cardiff express train services post December 2011
With regards to the commencement of the works to re-double the single track, this project is part of, and included within, the overall prioritisation programme of the National Transport Plan, as I explained in my letter to you of 6 July, and this will be published in the Autumn. It would he premature to announce any specific date for the commencement of works in advance of this prioritisation process.
The prioritisation of the National Transport Plan also includes consideration of whether funding for the express train services will continue after the current contracts expire at the end of December. Again, an announcement will be made at the time of publication of the Plan.
I regret that I am unable to answer the individual points that you cover in your letter as my officials are still in detailed discussions with Arriva Trains Wales about the fleet arrangements for the north - south services.

Carl Sargeant Minister for Local Government & Communities

Car Sargeant AC A c Y Gweinidog Llywoclraèff Minister

Bae Caerdydd Cardiff Bay English Enquiry Line 0845 010 3300
Caerdydd Cardiff Ltinell YmhoUadau Cnraeg 0845 010 4400
CF99 I NA Correspondence.CarLSargeanti?wates.gsi.gov, uk
Wedi 'f argrafu or bapur wedi '1 ailgylchu (100%) Printed on 100% recycled paper

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Here is the Ministers response , sent to me via my A.M. Confirms what I hoped. Taken from a PDF, if anyone wants to see the original please PM me with an e mail address.




Uywodraeth Cymru Welsh Government
Eich cyflYour ref MIITJ/032/1 1 Ein cyfiOur ref CS/0560811 1
Mark Isherwood AM
National Assembly for Wales Ty Hywel
Cardiff Bay
CF99 1 N
Markisherwood@wales.gov.uk
28th July 2011
Dear Mark
Thank you for your letter of 18 June about the re-doubling of rail track between Wrexham and Saitney Junction and the continuation of the two Holyhead - Cardiff express train services post December 2011
With regards to the commencement of the works to re-double the single track, this project is part of, and included within, the overall prioritisation programme of the National Transport Plan, as I explained in my letter to you of 6 July, and this will be published in the Autumn. It would he premature to announce any specific date for the commencement of works in advance of this prioritisation process.
The prioritisation of the National Transport Plan also includes consideration of whether funding for the express train services will continue after the current contracts expire at the end of December. Again, an announcement will be made at the time of publication of the Plan.
I regret that I am unable to answer the individual points that you cover in your letter as my officials are still in detailed discussions with Arriva Trains Wales about the fleet arrangements for the north - south services.

Carl Sargeant Minister for Local Government & Communities

Car Sargeant AC A c Y Gweinidog Llywoclraèff Minister

Bae Caerdydd Cardiff Bay English Enquiry Line 0845 010 3300
Caerdydd Cardiff Ltinell YmhoUadau Cnraeg 0845 010 4400
CF99 I NA Correspondence.CarLSargeanti?wates.gsi.gov, uk
Wedi 'f argrafu or bapur wedi '1 ailgylchu (100%) Printed on 100% recycled paper

Fingers crossed the redoubling comes off!

 

[merlodlliw]

Fingers crossed the redoubling comes off!

The Minister is under a lot of pressure for the redoubling, it helps that another Minister is A.M for Wrexham, plus two very persistent listed North Wales A.Ms Mark Isherwood & Aled Roberts whom I had a meeting with on Monday, the Deputy Leader of Wrexham County Council is also in charge of Wrexham's transport infrastructure and a Network Rail bobby, could not be better with such clued up people.


Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Minister is under a lot of pressure for the redoubling, it helps that another Minister is A.M for Wrexham, plus two very persistent listed North Wales A.Ms Mark Isherwood & Aled Roberts whom I had a meeting with on Monday, the Deputy Leader of Wrexham County Council is also in charge of Wrexham's transport infrastructure and a Network Rail bobby, could not be better with such clued up people.


Bob

Thank you, Bob, for keeping us all up to date on this.

P.S. Your PM plus attachment came through safely.

 

[jones_bangor]

my officials are still in detailed discussions with Arriva Trains Wales about the fleet arrangements for the north - south services.

Does this mean the end of WAG Express - if the DMUs are replaced with 67 / DVT / Mk3 stock, then it might...?

This minister has already shown he has a better hold over his department than the previous chap - the effective way the M4 Brynglas tunnels fire were managed was impressive.

 

[anthony263]

Does this mean the end of WAG Express - if the DMUs are replaced with 67 / DVT / Mk3 stock, then it might...?

This minister has already shown he has a better hold over his department than the previous chap - the effective way the M4 Brynglas tunnels fire were managed was impressive.

I do have to agree with you about the brynglas tunnel fire, they did handle it well although even they will say there were area's where we could improve. I see it has already started the debate for a new M4 relief road.

Not to fussed about them buidling a reief road for the M4 but if they want it they can fund it privately rather than waste taxpayers money.

I do hope the new aministration will continue campiagning for extra rolling stock etc and well as wiring to Swansea and the north wales coast.

I also hope the new minister for transport will have sense to scrap the air service between North & south wales which would save a lot of money and sort out cardiff airport and maybe once they have enough DMU's divert 1 of the trains which runs to Barry Island to Bridgend via Cardiff Airport together with some early morning & later evening services (Perhaps a late night train from Swansea which could run via the vale of glamorgan route.)

 

[TDK]

The Minister is under a lot of pressure for the redoubling, it helps that another Minister is A.M for Wrexham, plus two very persistent listed North Wales A.Ms Mark Isherwood & Aled Roberts whom I had a meeting with on Monday, the Deputy Leader of Wrexham County Council is also in charge of Wrexham's transport infrastructure and a Network Rail bobby, could not be better with such clued up people.


Bob

I have mentioned this before I think, as the only section of line in Wales is from Wrexham North Junction to Rossett is the UK government funding the reaminder?

 

[merlodlliw]

I have mentioned this before I think, as the only section of line in Wales is from Wrexham North Junction to Rossett is the UK government funding the reaminder?

Does not matter WAG take the lead on this,the £30 millions ring fenced includes monies set aside by both WAG & NWDA.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do have to agree with you about the brynglas tunnel fire, they did handle it well although even they will say there were area's where we could improve. I see it has already started the debate for a new M4 relief road.

Not to fussed about them buidling a reief road for the M4 but if they want it they can fund it privately rather than waste taxpayers money.

I do hope the new aministration will continue campiagning for extra rolling stock etc and well as wiring to Swansea and the north wales coast.

I also hope the new minister for transport will have sense to scrap the air service between North & south wales which would save a lot of money and sort out cardiff airport and maybe once they have enough DMU's divert 1 of the trains which runs to Barry Island to Bridgend via Cardiff Airport together with some early morning & later evening services (Perhaps a late night train from Swansea which could run via the vale of glamorgan route.)

The Air service will be scrapped when the contract runs out in about 4 years,I don't think WAG will buy it out,with luck it might go tits up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does this mean the end of WAG Express - if the DMUs are replaced with 67 / DVT / Mk3 stock, then it might...?

This minister has already shown he has a better hold over his department than the previous chap - the effective way the M4 Brynglas tunnels fire were managed was impressive.

I have to agree, this Minister does have a much better hold and is demanding answers, he is not a fan of the Elite Premier Dinner style trains I am told by insiders.
We wont get any more info before 19th Sept now,as WAG is in recess,and will only take written requests from A.Ms.#
I do believe the ATW HQ comfort zone is over, this Minister seems to have a better of smell B/S than his predecessors'

 

[krus_aragon]

and maybe once they have enough DMU's divert 1 of the trains which runs to Barry Island to Bridgend via Cardiff Airport together with some early morning & later evening services

That's on the cards, as well as linespeed improvements to allow a stop at St Athan while maintaining the clockface schedule. The third platform due to be built at Barry Town is intended to allow a shuttle to the island to connect with the VoG runs, presumably similar to the Llandudno-Junction shuttles.

That's a good point about late night diversions off the SWML.

 

[merlodlliw]

Excellent report by Charlie Hume in this weeks North Wales rail newspage
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

the report gives an in depth on the Wag Expresses future with links & comments from ATW staff about the 67s.


Bob

 

[tbtc]

The third platform due to be built at Barry Town is intended to allow a shuttle to the island to connect with the VoG runs, presumably similar to the Llandudno-Junction shuttles

Potential for a couple of Parry People Movers in Wales? One for the Cardiff Bay branch, one for the Barry Island branch?

Stick the 121 off the Cardiff Bay branch onto the HoW and pack it out with rail enthusiasts?