Wales & Borders not-for-profit plan "by summer"

[Greenback]

It could, but "not-for-profit" typically means "profits are not taken out of the system and given to shareholders", rather than "the company isn't allowed to be profitable".

The change should result in the "profits" being reinvested in more services and infrastructure. (Although in the case of this franchise, the profits are dwarfed by the government subsidy...)

I agree that could and should happen. I've worked for not for profit companies where the motivation to perform well, achieve targets and increase revenue has been just as strong as the for profit places I've worked.

 

[CC 72100]

It's to do with river catchments. If you live in an area of Wales and the Marches where the catchments run into the Severn, it's Severn Trent Water; if you live in an area (like Hereford and much of the county) where the catchments run into the Wye, it's Welsh Water.

Indeed - in Ross-on-Wye it's Welsh water, 6 miles down the road and across country borders and it's Severn Trent. (Who are much cheaper!)

 

[Gareth Marston]

So answer the rest of my questions:
Have you thought that through?
For example, my section of line is used by 1 TOC and 3 FOC's, a few miles further south by 2 TOC's and 3 FOC's and a few miles north another 3 different TOC's.
How are you going to SIMPLY calculated their shares of the costs?
How are you going to ensure that the signallers aren't "persuaded" to favour one operator?
How are you going to calculate maintenance charges?

And
How are you going to split the wages bills for the signallers, for example?

Graham no one is proposing any split of NR. ORR will still have to determine paths etc it's just that the current wales and Border franchise that we know as Arriva Trains Wales will be headline "not for profit" in reality concession for management fee. Track access and framenation, hire of stock from a ROSCO will still be part of the game.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know that, I just want to see how tdk is thinking.
He seems to be very good at making statements but not backing them up.

 

[TDK]

I know that, I just want to see how tdk is thinking.
He seems to be very good at making statements but not backing them up.

It's not the point of backing them up, I feel NR is wasting a lot of money, you said who should run it, I said the TOC's as a group, simple really. It is time the lid was lifted of NR's finances. It's a not for profit outfit, yes but hey come on they aren't really do a good job are they!

 

[Llanigraham]

And again another example of you making a contentious statement but not backing it up with facts or examples!
NR's finances are available and published if you wish to see them.
Please give us DETAILS of how you would do it?

 

[arfortune]

What an arrogant statement! I presume that you must be English? So you are suggesting that the Welsh Government (and presumably by association, the Scots and N. Irish) should have policies that are identical to those coming out of Westminster?

What a helpful contribution to the debate!

I consider myself British. Yes, I was born in England, but spent most of my life in Wales, however, saying that's my view because of my 'nationality' is quite frankly insulting, if not by definition, racist.
My post doesn't mention anything about having to be "identical to Westminster" indeed it isn't sensible to have the same policies in Aberdeen as Aberystwyth or Ashford. This is why DfT are also looking at decentralising control to the regions, Wales and Scotland.

My statement is based on my experience of living in both Wales and England, and working with both the National and Welsh governments in the transport and railway industry. I have been involved in many upgrade schemes, franchise lettings and planning proposals, so like to think I have some idea what I'm talking about!
Wales has had devolution for less than 20 years, so yes one would expect them to be less experienced and immature than National gov which has been around for hundreds of years. This is not a comment about the hard working civil servants or the tough financial situation Wales is in compared to Scotland.
The politicians in Cardiff are poor and many decisions are made for ideological purposes rather than what's best for Wales and its population. They don't seem to understand how business works, or how the UK rail industry is run and regulated. There also appears to be more political interference in day to day things rather than letting experts with the knowledge do their jobs. This is evidence in all areas of gov and was demonstrated by Edwina Hart on the Wales Report and highlighted by others on this post. She was actually fairly insulting to rail staff and passengers in her dismissal of survey results and the hard work ATW staff have done to be one of the best and reliable operators in the country.
Some facts on this topic

• • Currently no public sector body in GB can operate a rail franchise without a change to the Railways Act; East Coast was a hang over from NX handing back the franchise.
  • I noted there appears, however, to be a move away a WG owned company to more of a Merseyrail / London Overground type arrangement. That's fine and could be done without al the huffing and puffing.
  • NR is a state owned, not for profit company. They do produce plans for schemes, but if the Welsh Gov believe they have no say in priorities I'd be quite worried. They can steer if they wanted to.
  • NR needs reform as they continue to make basic mistakes as demonstrated over Christmas. They also achieved a lot on time and budget so whole scale change isn't needed.
  • Reopening railways e.g. Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - Yes this could be done but passenger numbers or freight flows aren't there so massive subsidies would be needed. As I said previously this is the key to the whole issue - Money.
  Money is going to be even tighter than it already is over the next 5 years, and it's difficult to see how increased spending on subsidies will be justified when hospital queues and class sizes are increasing. Massive subsidies will continue to be needed for the Wales & Borders franchise. reducing the margin the operator earns from 6 to 2% isn't going to save that much money, or produce the step change they're seeking.
  I really hope am wrong, as it's my job. Its great and right to want to have world class services, but you have to be realistic and not use them to grand stand or point score.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not the point of backing them up, I feel NR is wasting a lot of money, you said who should run it, I said the TOC's as a group, simple really. It is time the lid was lifted of NR's finances. It's a not for profit outfit, yes but hey come on they aren't really do a good job are they!

I agree, the results coming out of the Alliance with SWT shows the benefits of working together.
They do have some great people there, and complete many projects on time and budget, whilst keeping most of the network operational. The big issue in my eyes is their inability to learn from mistakes. Kings Cross and Paddington over Christmas was a catalogue of basic errors that had occurred previously. Am hoping it won't occur again, but am not holding my breath! ,

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good to have some inside knowledge of how these things work.
While the devolution debate is still in full swing there will be a lot of posturing and "grandstanding" until a new settlement between Westminster, Holyrood and Cardiff Bay is agreed.
Wales will also demand the same treatment as Scotland, despite not having the economic clout or the geography to match.
Of the many issues, rail is not that high on the agenda - things like taxation, energy policy and social benefits are higher up the list.

All the local assemblies are demanding as much funding and control as they can get.
They can't help themselves.
Meanwhile Westminster wants to retain all real control, while offering scraps to the regions.
Personally, I would like to know what Stephen Crabb thinks as much as Edwina Hart, as it might well have more bearing on the outcome for rail.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear what they (HMG/WG) really mean when they say they have agreed the devolution of the W&B franchise to Cardiff Bay.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

What a helpful contribution to the debate!

I consider myself British. Yes, I was born in England, but spent most of my life in Wales, however, saying that's my view because of my 'nationality' is quite frankly insulting, if not by definition, racist.
My post doesn't mention anything about having to be "identical to Westminster" indeed it isn't sensible to have the same policies in Aberdeen as Aberystwyth or Ashford. This is why DfT are also looking at decentralising control to the regions, Wales and Scotland.

My statement is based on my experience of living in both Wales and England, and working with both the National and Welsh governments in the transport and railway industry. I have been involved in many upgrade schemes, franchise lettings and planning proposals, so like to think I have some idea what I'm talking about!
Wales has had devolution for less than 20 years, so yes one would expect them to be less experienced and immature than National gov which has been around for hundreds of years. This is not a comment about the hard working civil servants or the tough financial situation Wales is in compared to Scotland.
The politicians in Cardiff are poor and many decisions are made for ideological purposes rather than what's best for Wales and its population. They don't seem to understand how business works, or how the UK rail industry is run and regulated. There also appears to be more political interference in day to day things rather than letting experts with the knowledge do their jobs. This is evidence in all areas of gov and was demonstrated by Edwina Hart on the Wales Report and highlighted by others on this post. She was actually fairly insulting to rail staff and passengers in her dismissal of survey results and the hard work ATW staff have done to be one of the best and reliable operators in the country.
Some facts on this topic

• • Currently no public sector body in GB can operate a rail franchise without a change to the Railways Act; East Coast was a hang over from NX handing back the franchise.
  • I noted there appears, however, to be a move away a WG owned company to more of a Merseyrail / London Overground type arrangement. That's fine and could be done without al the huffing and puffing.
  • NR is a state owned, not for profit company. They do produce plans for schemes, but if the Welsh Gov believe they have no say in priorities I'd be quite worried. They can steer if they wanted to.
  • NR needs reform as they continue to make basic mistakes as demonstrated over Christmas. They also achieved a lot on time and budget so whole scale change isn't needed.
  • Reopening railways e.g. Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - Yes this could be done but passenger numbers or freight flows aren't there so massive subsidies would be needed. As I said previously this is the key to the whole issue - Money.
  Money is going to be even tighter than it already is over the next 5 years, and it's difficult to see how increased spending on subsidies will be justified when hospital queues and class sizes are increasing. Massive subsidies will continue to be needed for the Wales & Borders franchise. reducing the margin the operator earns from 6 to 2% isn't going to save that much money, or produce the step change they're seeking.
  I really hope am wrong, as it's my job. Its great and right to want to have world class services, but you have to be realistic and not use them to grand stand or point score.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
,

I appreciate that you have taken the time to clarify your statement and explain your background working in Transport/Railway industry. My experience in Health is different, so we will just have to disagree on that one! I would still suggest though that the way you have worded your view of politicians in Wales is erroneous, or - at best, disingenuous, do Westminster politicians not make 'decisions for ideological purposes'? Anyway, it's not worth going on, but thanks anyway for your clarification.

 

[Yew]

do Westminster politicians not make 'decisions for ideological purposes'?

Well there is the neoliberal idealogically driven austerity from all of the main three parties..

 

[merlodlliw]

If its not already up, have a look at the Minister in a Q&A with Huw Edwards

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0511gf8/the-wales-report-04022015

The Wales Report -
04/02/2015
Current affairs series. Who should run the rail service in Wales? Huw Edwards speaks to economy and transport minister Edwina Hart.

 

[PHILIPE]

We will have the situation of train service specifications by civil servants at the DAFT and politicians in the Welsh Government. Need to be done by railway people who understand the industry.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think if it goes ahead the biggest issue will be managing expectation. At best if subsidy, revenue and costs stay the same there will be £10-12 million per annum in the investment kitty at best. It's not a magic panacea, it could rebuild Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line at a rate of one mile a year though the real danger is the clamour for brand new EMU's for Valleys electrification. I doubt £12 million will cover the differential in leasing costs between 315's and new stock.

I can see many well meaning clamours coming about from those that don't understand the mechanics of it.

 

[NSEFAN]

We will have the situation of train service specifications by civil servants at the DAFT and politicians in the Welsh Government. Need to be done by railway people who understand the industry.

And how is that different from the current situation, except said civil servants are based in London instead?

 

[PHILIPE]

And how is that different from the current situation, except said civil servants are based in London instead?

Just remarking about an extension of the civil service into Wales.

 

[Robertj21a]

What a helpful contribution to the debate!

I consider myself British. Yes, I was born in England, but spent most of my life in Wales, however, saying that's my view because of my 'nationality' is quite frankly insulting, if not by definition, racist.
My post doesn't mention anything about having to be "identical to Westminster" indeed it isn't sensible to have the same policies in Aberdeen as Aberystwyth or Ashford. This is why DfT are also looking at decentralising control to the regions, Wales and Scotland.

My statement is based on my experience of living in both Wales and England, and working with both the National and Welsh governments in the transport and railway industry. I have been involved in many upgrade schemes, franchise lettings and planning proposals, so like to think I have some idea what I'm talking about!
Wales has had devolution for less than 20 years, so yes one would expect them to be less experienced and immature than National gov which has been around for hundreds of years. This is not a comment about the hard working civil servants or the tough financial situation Wales is in compared to Scotland.
The politicians in Cardiff are poor and many decisions are made for ideological purposes rather than what's best for Wales and its population. They don't seem to understand how business works, or how the UK rail industry is run and regulated. There also appears to be more political interference in day to day things rather than letting experts with the knowledge do their jobs. This is evidence in all areas of gov and was demonstrated by Edwina Hart on the Wales Report and highlighted by others on this post. She was actually fairly insulting to rail staff and passengers in her dismissal of survey results and the hard work ATW staff have done to be one of the best and reliable operators in the country.
Some facts on this topic

• • Currently no public sector body in GB can operate a rail franchise without a change to the Railways Act; East Coast was a hang over from NX handing back the franchise.
  • I noted there appears, however, to be a move away a WG owned company to more of a Merseyrail / London Overground type arrangement. That's fine and could be done without al the huffing and puffing.
  • NR is a state owned, not for profit company. They do produce plans for schemes, but if the Welsh Gov believe they have no say in priorities I'd be quite worried. They can steer if they wanted to.
  • NR needs reform as they continue to make basic mistakes as demonstrated over Christmas. They also achieved a lot on time and budget so whole scale change isn't needed.
  • Reopening railways e.g. Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - Yes this could be done but passenger numbers or freight flows aren't there so massive subsidies would be needed. As I said previously this is the key to the whole issue - Money.
  Money is going to be even tighter than it already is over the next 5 years, and it's difficult to see how increased spending on subsidies will be justified when hospital queues and class sizes are increasing. Massive subsidies will continue to be needed for the Wales & Borders franchise. reducing the margin the operator earns from 6 to 2% isn't going to save that much money, or produce the step change they're seeking.
  I really hope am wrong, as it's my job. Its great and right to want to have world class services, but you have to be realistic and not use them to grand stand or point score.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree, the results coming out of the Alliance with SWT shows the benefits of working together.
They do have some great people there, and complete many projects on time and budget, whilst keeping most of the network operational. The big issue in my eyes is their inability to learn from mistakes. Kings Cross and Paddington over Christmas was a catalogue of basic errors that had occurred previously. Am hoping it won't occur again, but am not holding my breath! ,

How very refreshing to find someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Thank you.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just remarking about an extension of the civil service into Wales.

Already here pre 1999, 5000 head count of WG Civil Servants.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How very refreshing to find someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Thank you.

WG will be implementing it especially if Milliband PM. Best to educate stakeholders as to the reality of what £10 million per annum actually gets.

 

[TDK]

And again another example of you making a contentious statement but not backing it up with facts or examples!
NR's finances are available and published if you wish to see them.
Please give us DETAILS of how you would do it?

Have you studied NR's finances? I am not an expert in the field so how could I suggest how to do it? However would you not say that if NR was run by the TOC's there would be a lot less wastage and ridiculous poorly managed projects?? Look at the Wrexham to Chester redouble for example? The Chiltern Evergreen 3 project was a huge success as was the building of Warwick Parkway station, both completed with funding from Chiltern Railways and also completed more economically than NR had proposed. OK, so EG3 was a joint venture but Chiltern were controlling it, Warwick Parkway was all Chilterns doing!

 

[PHILIPE]

Have you studied NR's finances? I am not an expert in the field so how could I suggest how to do it? However would you not say that if NR was run by the TOC's there would be a lot less wastage and ridiculous poorly managed projects?? Look at the Wrexham to Chester redouble for example? The Chiltern Evergreen 3 project was a huge success as was the building of Warwick Parkway station, both completed with funding from Chiltern Railways and also completed more economically than NR had proposed. OK, so EG3 was a joint venture but Chiltern were controlling it, Warwick Parkway was all Chilterns doing!

Some years ago, Merseyrail offered to take over the responsibility for their Infrastructure and showed they could do it cheaper than Network Rail. But, of course, the ORR and DaFT dogmatically said they could not. Rules.

 

[Llanigraham]

Have you studied NR's finances? I am not an expert in the field so how could I suggest how to do it? However would you not say that if NR was run by the TOC's there would be a lot less wastage and ridiculous poorly managed projects?? Look at the Wrexham to Chester redouble for example? The Chiltern Evergreen 3 project was a huge success as was the building of Warwick Parkway station, both completed with funding from Chiltern Railways and also completed more economically than NR had proposed. OK, so EG3 was a joint venture but Chiltern were controlling it, Warwick Parkway was all Chilterns doing!

Would there be any less wastage? Sorry but that sounds like a huge presumption.
What about the Wrexham redoubling?
Sorry but all I keep seeing is a continual anti-Network Rail, little of which has anything to do with Wales.

 

[Olaf]

I think the subtext to this is solely that the Welsh Assembly wants to take full control of the funding for rail within Wales, and thus adjust the priorities. However there would not be any additional money unless it was diverted from other Assembly allocations.

There would be the benefit of being able to take the credit for new projects as they became live, but there would also be the increased possibility of failures such as teh Edinburgh trams without the recourse to the existing expertise.

Expect to see a lot of high-paid senior management positions being created to duplicate the resources available to the DfT, ORR, and NR.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think the subtext to this is solely that the Welsh Assembly wants to take full control of the funding for rail within Wales, and thus adjust the priorities. However there would not be any additional money unless it was diverted from other Assembly allocations.

There would be the benefit of being able to take the credit for new projects as they became live, but there would also be the increased possibility of failures such as teh Edinburgh trams without the recourse to the existing expertise.

Expect to see a lot of high-paid senior management positions being created to duplicate the resources available to the DfT, ORR, and NR.

Edinburgh tram usage exceeds predictions that's not a failure. Agreed lessons need to be learned but were paying the price for 50 years of getting transport policy wrong.

As I keep saying getting fingers crossed an investment budget of £10 million and control from Cardiff is not going to be the magic panacea some think with not for profit. The left have done a very good PR job with greedy rip off TOC's being the cause of all ills but the reality is not that straightforward.

 

[NSEFAN]

Some years ago, Merseyrail offered to take over the responsibility for their Infrastructure and showed they could do it cheaper than Network Rail. But, of course, the ORR and DaFT dogmatically said they could not. Rules.

Was that actually the case, or did they just back down when they realised how much of a headache it would be?

 

[TDK]

What about the Wrexham redoubling?
Sorry but all I keep seeing is a continual anti-Network Rail, little of which has anything to do with Wales.

Will the not for profit funded company not need to pay NR the huge amount that ATW does? If so will this money come from WG? If so it does have to do with Wales!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about the Wrexham redoubling?

I suggest you read the thread on the Wrexham redouble project and it's failures!

 

[Llanigraham]

In your opinion!!

TBH you are never going to agree with me or accept that I can have a different opinion, so farewell.

 

[Olaf]

It could, but "not-for-profit" typically means "profits are not taken out of the system and given to shareholders", rather than "the company isn't allowed to be profitable".

The change should result in the "profits" being reinvested in more services and infrastructure. (Although in the case of this franchise, the profits are dwarfed by the government subsidy...)

Under 'Not for Profit' any profit would be treated as a recovery against the subsidy - to say it would be re-invested is misleading.

The problem with NfP is that it makes funding fully subject to the Welsh Assembly's funding constraints. In the coming five year period the estimates for the cuts are all falling in the range of 6% - 18% across the board, if economic growth continues on it's Q4/2014 trajectory, with no new major external influences. That is irrespective of the make up of the future Government. There will be some room to accommodate 'exceptions' but cuts will have to fall somewhere. On top of that there is still the black hole in NRs CP5 funding that has not yet been publicly quantified - at a guess something like GBP 1.2B.

So, take all the promises with a pinch of salt; it might work out but at some point the future Government has some hard decisions to make.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not the point of backing them up, I feel NR is wasting a lot of money, you said who should run it, I said the TOC's as a group, simple really. It is time the lid was lifted of NR's finances. It's a not for profit outfit, yes but hey come on they aren't really do a good job are they!

I would agree on the point that NR has been ineffective in reducing it's operating costs and needs to up the tempo within certain operations - planning and strategy being the two it urgently needs to address.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And again another example of you making a contentious statement but not backing it up with facts or examples!
NR's finances are available and published if you wish to see them.
Please give us DETAILS of how you would do it?

The ORR reports indicate that NR is failing to achieve a substantial number of it's agreed KPIs, cost reductions being one of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some years ago, Merseyrail offered to take over the responsibility for their Infrastructure and showed they could do it cheaper than Network Rail. But, of course, the ORR and DaFT dogmatically said they could not. Rules.

Merseytravel's wish to take over the operation of the rail infrastructure was driven by one man. When the costs and technicalities were investigated, the proposal was drop by Merseytravel, and the individual left for foreign climes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edinburgh tram usage exceeds predictions that's not a failure. Agreed lessons need to be learned but were paying the price for 50 years of getting transport policy wrong.

As I keep saying getting fingers crossed an investment budget of £10 million and control from Cardiff is not going to be the magic panacea some think with not for profit. The left have done a very good PR job with greedy rip off TOC's being the cause of all ills but the reality is not that straightforward.

I agree with what you say. I would point however to the inflated costs the mismanagement of the project gave rise to. I do not have the numbers to hand, but it was ineptness in the team that means that it is unlikely the full system will be built, and what is there has higher unit costs than was envisioned, and it will never break even.