Wales & Borders not-for-profit plan "by summer"

[Arglwydd Golau]

Unfortunately the Welsh Government is quite immature in how it operates generally, be it transport, health, education etc, and always seem to want to do things in a different way, almost for the sake of it.

What an arrogant statement! I presume that you must be English? So you are suggesting that the Welsh Government (and presumably by association, the Scots and N. Irish) should have policies that are identical to those coming out of Westminster?

 

[Llanigraham]

You make an interesting point "Chester to Cardiff" perhaps the reason is so few use the service between the two Cities.

Which is even more proof that the original rant is incorrect!

 

[merlodlliw]

Which is even more proof that the original rant is incorrect!

Please explain.
You mention Chester(ATWs second busiest managed station) and Cardiff, yet the destination choice Chester/ Cardiff is well down on the list.

 

[Llanigraham]

Please explain.
You mention Chester(ATWs second busiest managed station) and Cardiff, yet the destination choice Chester/ Cardiff is well down on the list.

His rant contained inaccuracies.
This was one of them.

:roll::roll::roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

His rant contained inaccuracies.
This was one of them.

:roll::roll::roll:

OK your opinion of course,three sets of rolling eyes?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just caught up on Wales Report on I player sounds to me what's actually going to come out is a Management Contract/ Concession deal like Merseyrail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just caught up on Wales Report on I player sounds to me what's actually going to come out is a Management Contract/ Concession deal like Merseyrail.

But on what geographic footprint?
Newport-Chester and points west thereof?
Merseyrail is a for-profit contract (as far as Serco/Abellio are concerned).
Merseytravel take the revenue risk and decide service/fare levels.
And acquire new rolling stock...oh wait they can't afford it.

 

[TDK]

But on what geographic footprint?
Newport-Chester and points west thereof?
Merseyrail is a for-profit contract (as far as Serco/Abellio are concerned).
Merseytravel take the revenue risk and decide service/fare levels.
And acquire new rolling stock...oh wait they can't afford it.

This is a very valid point, currently the WG are funding ATW but in all the time they have been in office since 2004 I believe there has not been any new rolling stock injected into the franchise. Ok, this franchise was actually a non growth franchise originally and ATW to be fair have invested heavily into the network with the aid of the WG however they didn't need to, to maintain their original franchise agreement.

So, will the WG fund new stock? I doubt it, have WG got a solid business plan to run the services needed? I doubt it, would have WG saved the now cancelled am. train to Brum? I doubt it. So folks, please enlighten us all on how if the WG run a not for profit business to run the W & B franchise what improvements if any they intend on supplying to the whole of Wales". As many who live in the North realise and this is an obvious fact that the WG mostly support South of Newport and anywhere North of Newport is just basically satisfied and not enhanced.

So, how much will they invest? Will central government fund them the same as a private for profit company and where will they get the money from?

 

[Gareth Marston]

But on what geographic footprint?
Newport-Chester and points west thereof?
Merseyrail is a for-profit contract (as far as Serco/Abellio are concerned).
Merseytravel take the revenue risk and decide service/fare levels.
And acquire new rolling stock...oh wait they can't afford it.

BBC Wales failed to pick up on the Borders and beyond question though the Minister did mention importance of links to "Liverpool and Manchester".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is a very valid point, currently the WG are funding ATW but in all the time they have been in office since 2004 I believe there has not been any new rolling stock injected into the franchise. Ok, this franchise was actually a non growth franchise originally and ATW to be fair have invested heavily into the network with the aid of the WG however they didn't need to, to maintain their original franchise agreement.

So, will the WG fund new stock? I doubt it, have WG got a solid business plan to run the services needed? I doubt it, would have WG saved the now cancelled am. train to Brum? I doubt it. So folks, please enlighten us all on how if the WG run a not for profit business to run the W & B franchise what improvements if any they intend on supplying to the whole of Wales". As many who live in the North realise and this is an obvious fact that the WG mostly support South of Newport and anywhere North of Newport is just basically satisfied and not enhanced.

So, how much will they invest? Will central government fund them the same as a private for profit company and where will they get the money from?

ATW currently average 6% in profit a lot more than the pittance what ATOC whines about. With a Management contract of around 1-2% the theory is that the remainder is your investment budget. However it's not the bonanza that the unions and other left wingers give the impression as The TOC s only make 25% of the profit in the industry.

 

[TDK]

BBC Wales failed to pick up on the Borders and beyond question though the Minister did mention importance of links to "Liverpool and Manchester".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW currently average 6% in profit a lot more than the pittance what ATOC whines about. With a Management contract of around 1-2% the theory is that the remainder is your investment budget. However it's not the bonanza that the unions and other left wingers give the impression as The TOC s only make 25% of the profit in the industry.

The largest expense on the railway is Network Rail and the TOC's pay a huge slice to them, they are a non profit making outfit!

 

[Llanigraham]

The largest expense on the railway is Network Rail and the TOC's pay a huge slice to them, they are a non profit making outfit!

So what would you propose?

 

[eisenach]

Thought Hereford got their water from Severn Trent, like I do in Mid Wales?
Get your facts right!

It's to do with river catchments. If you live in an area of Wales and the Marches where the catchments run into the Severn, it's Severn Trent Water; if you live in an area (like Hereford and much of the county) where the catchments run into the Wye, it's Welsh Water.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So what would you propose?

Most of NR's funding comes from the block grant from the DfT - as does the "investment pot on projects etc" -

Track Access charges are a modest contribution - as otherwise if the cash came through the TOC's - it would only result in a more complicated financial regime

Arriva makes a decent profit - but much of the rest of the DB empire in the UK is not exactly a cash / profit generator.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Most of NR's funding comes from the block grant from the DfT - as does the "investment pot on projects etc" -

Track Access charges are a modest contribution - as otherwise if the cash came through the TOC's - it would only result in a more complicated financial regime

Arriva makes a decent profit - but much of the rest of the DB empire in the UK is not exactly a cash / profit generator.

ATW have done well for their shareholders after a very ropey start, contributory factors being the huge growth in passenger and revenue numbers with no obligation to invest/expand to cope with it courtesy of the "no growth" franchise. Welsh Government funding for extra services/trains no doubt with a margin attached. Getting others slice of the ORCATS pie extending to BHM INTL from New St in 2008.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

ATW have done well for their shareholders after a very ropey start, contributory factors being the huge growth in passenger and revenue numbers with no obligation to invest/expand to cope with it courtesy of the "no growth" franchise. Welsh Government funding for extra services/trains no doubt with a margin attached. Getting others slice of the ORCATS pie extending to BHM INTL from New St in 2008.

I would not critiscise ATW for what they have generally done with the franchise - though there are numerous posts on here about "issues" - I am just wondering why someone would consider taking on what is basically a shed load of work for basically a small return.

One is reminded of the contracts dished out in the 19thC and the 20thC for local interest railways in deeply rural France for metre gauge lines - which had no incentives for the operator to do more than the minimum service spec , no real interest by the "funder or contract manager" either (in case costs went up) - so the systems ticked along and were eventually shut down as economics and road transport strangled them. Not quite 21stC Wales I admit - but then Wales has low economic growth , a challenging population base and a few other things which Scotland does not have to deal with.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I would not critiscise ATW for what they have generally done with the franchise - though there are numerous posts on here about "issues" - I am just wondering why someone would consider taking on what is basically a shed load of work for basically a small return.

One is reminded of the contracts dished out in the 19thC and the 20thC for local interest railways in deeply rural France for metre gauge lines - which had no incentives for the operator to do more than the minimum service spec , no real interest by the "funder or contract manager" either (in case costs went up) - so the systems ticked along and were eventually shut down as economics and road transport strangled them. Not quite 21stC Wales I admit - but then Wales has low economic growth , a challenging population base and a few other things which Scotland does not have to deal with.....

No problem getting companies to run Merseyrail and London Overground or other concessions overseas. First Group and Virgin will be crying in their beer over the terms of the East Coast franchise before too long who wants that hassle? In fact the operators are quite worried about the cost of bidding and dwindling returns in the UK franchise model.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No problem getting companies to run Merseyrail and London Overground or other concessions overseas. First Group and Virgin will be crying in their beer over the terms of the East Coast franchise before too long who wants that hassle? In fact the operators are quite worried about the cost of bidding and dwindling returns in the UK franchise model.

ME and LO are pretty much self-contained metro networks with little overlap with "main line" TOCs.
You could imagine the same sort of operation on the Valleys network, but how would it work on SWML and NWML?
A large proportion of those services are provided by FGW/VT on a franchise basis.
I'm not sure how you can mix concession/franchise services on the same routes (fare structure etc).
We don't want FGW/VT picking up only eastbound and setting down only westbound.
And it wouldn't work east of the Marches line, with all the overlaps with other TOCs.

 

[CdBrux]

Not for profit? Great! How about not for subsidy?

 

[Gareth Marston]

ME and LO are pretty much self-contained metro networks with little overlap with "main line" TOCs.
You could imagine the same sort of operation on the Valleys network, but how would it work on SWML and NWML?
A large proportion of those services are provided by FGW/VT on a franchise basis.
I'm not sure how you can mix concession/franchise services on the same routes (fare structure etc).
We don't want FGW/VT picking up only eastbound and setting down only westbound.
And it wouldn't work east of the Marches line, with all the overlaps with other TOCs.

Are you saying that specific TOC only fares will have to be applied?

 

[TDK]

So what would you propose?

The TOC's run network rail

 

[Llanigraham]

The TOC's run network rail

Have you thought that through?
For example, my section of line is used by 1 TOC and 3 FOC's, a few miles further south by 2 TOC's and 3 FOC's and a few miles north another 3 different TOC's.
How are you going to SIMPLY calculated their shares of the costs?
How are you going to ensure that the signallers aren't "persuaded" to favour one operator?
How are you going to calculate maintenance charges?
Personally I'm moving more and more to a nationalised railway!

 

[TDK]

Have you thought that through?
For example, my section of line is used by 1 TOC and 3 FOC's, a few miles further south by 2 TOC's and 3 FOC's and a few miles north another 3 different TOC's.
How are you going to SIMPLY calculated their shares of the costs?
How are you going to ensure that the signallers aren't "persuaded" to favour one operator?
How are you going to calculate maintenance charges?
Personally I'm moving more and more to a nationalised railway!

I am not going to get into the argument for nationalisation of the railway, I just hope it doesn't happen during my working career. The TOC's, FOC's pay NR a huge amount of money that has been poorly managed over the past few years, it is time that NR was exposed as the poor micro managed "not for profit" company it really is. There is an amount of money that is needed for a task be it replacing track, re-signalling etc. this money is being wasted in some circumstances.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am not going to get into the argument for nationalisation of the railway, I just hope it doesn't happen during my working career. The TOC's, FOC's pay NR a huge amount of money that has been poorly managed over the past few years, it is time that NR was exposed as the poor micro managed "not for profit" company it really is. There is an amount of money that is needed for a task be it replacing track, re-signalling etc. this money is being wasted in some circumstances.

The original privitisation model had Railtrack getting all it's income from track access charges but Since the early 2000's track access levels have been cut back and Govt subsidy paid direct to NR rather than indirectly via TOC's. This has essentially made the TOC's and FOC's minor customers rather than influential ones which might be part of the problem. The open access outfit you use to work for paid peanuts to NR.

 

[Llanigraham]

I am not going to get into the argument for nationalisation of the railway, I just hope it doesn't happen during my working career. The TOC's, FOC's pay NR a huge amount of money that has been poorly managed over the past few years, it is time that NR was exposed as the poor micro managed "not for profit" company it really is. There is an amount of money that is needed for a task be it replacing track, re-signalling etc. this money is being wasted in some circumstances.

So answer the rest of my questions:
Have you thought that through?
For example, my section of line is used by 1 TOC and 3 FOC's, a few miles further south by 2 TOC's and 3 FOC's and a few miles north another 3 different TOC's.
How are you going to SIMPLY calculated their shares of the costs?
How are you going to ensure that the signallers aren't "persuaded" to favour one operator?
How are you going to calculate maintenance charges?

And
How are you going to split the wages bills for the signallers, for example?

 

[43074]

So answer the rest of my questions:
Have you thought that through?
For example, my section of line is used by 1 TOC and 3 FOC's, a few miles further south by 2 TOC's and 3 FOC's and a few miles north another 3 different TOC's.
How are you going to SIMPLY calculated their shares of the costs?
How are you going to ensure that the signallers aren't "persuaded" to favour one operator?
How are you going to calculate maintenance charges?

And
How are you going to split the wages bills for the signallers, for example?

In the late 80s didn't BR use a ''prime-user'' accountancy method, whereby the sector which ran the most trains over a line was responsible for its maintenance and operation? Wouldn't something like that work except using the TOCs, if I'm understanding his proposal correctly...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the late 80s didn't BR use a ''prime-user'' accountancy method, whereby the sector which ran the most trains over a line was responsible for its maintenance and operation? Wouldn't something like that work except using the TOCs, if I'm understanding his proposal correctly...

Indeed - and the "minor user" paid for some of their usage. Of course , the "deeply inefficien BR" (Major) - had a good sense of what each line or route section cost to operate and where the renewals were needed. All this was lost in the Railtrack era...

Not to say there were not rows occassionaly over "apportionment" - the term used - I recall a sense of outrage at being given the cost of renewing the con rail from Basingstoke to Southampton when as a freight manager I only operated diesel trains. A nice try !

 

[aylesbury]

Interesting to see how this idea will actually work , not for profit could mean that investment in stations and rolling stock wont happen.

 

[RichW1]

I suspect the rural nature of many of Wales' railways and the lack of sheer numbers will mean much subsidy is required. It is different running an East Coast than a whole country of just 3.2 million or so.

I have to agree with a poster earlier, the Welsh government has made a mess of everything it was put in charge of. The economy is a terrible mess. Just take this simple fact... The economy of Greater Manchester (2.8million) is bigger than the whole of Wales (3.2 million). That is a damning indictment of the Welsh government and I doubt they can find money to subsidise a rail service. I think they should focus on business friendly measures just to get the nation into 2nd gear.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I suspect the rural nature of many of Wales' railways and the lack of sheer numbers will mean much subsidy is required. It is different running an East Coast than a whole country of just 3.2 million or so.

I have to agree with a poster earlier, the Welsh government has made a mess of everything it was put in charge of. The economy is a terrible mess. Just take this simple fact... The economy of Greater Manchester (2.8million) is bigger than the whole of Wales (3.2 million). That is a damning indictment of the Welsh government and I doubt they can find money to subsidise a rail service. I think they should focus on business friendly measures just to get the nation into 2nd gear.

Welsh Government already pays the subsidy to the Wales and Borders franchise which includes two routes into Greater Manchester.

 

[krus_aragon]

Interesting to see how this idea will actually work , not for profit could mean that investment in stations and rolling stock wont happen.

It could, but "not-for-profit" typically means "profits are not taken out of the system and given to shareholders", rather than "the company isn't allowed to be profitable".

The change should result in the "profits" being reinvested in more services and infrastructure. (Although in the case of this franchise, the profits are dwarfed by the government subsidy...)