Wales & Borders Franchise

[Philip]

I don't disagree that the pattern is a mess - and it certainly does need a recast, but you're kind of missing the point somewhat and totally ignored the points I raised above as to why they operate.

You can sill leave an hourly path for VT services where needed and run a proper clockface service along the coast.

The two VT trains serving Holyhead at lunchtime are there, along with the ATW loco hauled set to/from Manchester due to the demand for direct trains to connect with the two inbound and outbound ferry sailings. The demand actually exists - why would you abandon it and force all of those passengers to make transfers at Chester?

I've already pointed out that you wouldn't gain anything from not starting the other early trains from Holyhead - they still would have to start at Chester. There isn't much point in that argument at all.

The service pattern needs a recast but I think your thoughts on the VT services are misguided. They provide much needed extra capacity and direct ferry connections that are pretty much essential along the coast.

I did mention that one service a day should be kept to connect into the 13:50/14:00 ferry departures from Holyhead, so either the 08:10 or 09:10 from London and either the 12:52 or 13:58 on the return.

I agree that the extra capacity is needed, what I'm saying is that I feel that extra capacity should come from better inter-regional services, rather than London services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Driver M answered that at the same time as you posted so you probably missed it, but yes that is indeed the case, Manchester and Liverpool drivers with some taxiing and some working to and from Crewe. All HHD and BNG services do use HHD TM's though,no other TM signs the coast, and most of the catering crews are based there as well. The figure of 80 I gave was a rough guess for the 2 combined, but it's been 5 years since I worked that line as catering staff.

I've no wish to rock the boat, but that driver arrangement doesn't sound very efficient.
I thought the idea of 3x221s parked at Holyhead overnight was to match the train crews!
It all seemed a bit crazy when Liverpool drivers took a Pendolino down the coast (plus a 57 on the front from Crewe), and then worked it ECS to Longsight for servicing (and back in time for the morning start).
We also have odd Central Rivers-Chester/Holyhead ECS positioning workings in the timetable.
Taxiing drivers 100 miles can't be right for the economics of the service.

 

[driver_m]

Indeed he did. It was more of an observation on my part, asking the question.

Yes you're probably not far off with that guess given you probably have early, late, and middle shifts, along with rest day cover.

Presumably there are three drivers taxied in each morning and back each night every weekday - that's a lot of downtime and indeed cost in taxi fares.

Always seemed odd to me that they didn't have a driver depot there too and that you would have similar driver and TM rosters.

If you go back. The mk3 & HST stock was driven by Holyhead FNW drivers as far as Crewe when we took over. Then came the 221s which were manned by XC Manchester drivers. Then the work was taken by WC drivers based at Picc and Lime St. sometime before the XC franchise was given to Arriva. That's why we have what we have. It is 6 drivers altogether that are taxied to or from Holyhead. Plus the daytime jobs as well which are also split between the depots.

 

[berneyarms]

I did mention that one service a day should be kept to connect into the 13:50/14:00 ferry departures from Holyhead, so either the 08:10 or 09:10 from London and either the 12:52 or 13:58 on the return.

I agree that the extra capacity is needed, what I'm saying is that I feel that extra capacity should come from better inter-regional services, rather than London services.

So you're saying abandon the morning trains from North Wales to London and their evening returns altogether. What does that solve? The sets would be lying idle at Chester until they join the existing paths of those trains from Holyhead there. I don't think that is an improvement.

Again there is capacity for retaining the VT hourly path while also adding additional paths along the North Wales coast.

Running both the 08:10 and 09:10 trains to Holyhead means you can provide ferry connections in both directions. Due to the need to fit into the WCML clockface pattern they have to wait an hour at Holyhead so one train cannot provide connections in both directions alone - otherwise people have an unacceptably long wait for a connection, which was the case until 2015. VT clearly felt it worthwhile to extend the train from Bangor to do just that.

You really aren't thinking this through at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you go back. The mk3 & HST stock was driven by Holyhead FNW drivers as far as Crewe when we took over. Then came the 221s which were manned by XC Manchester drivers. Then the work was taken by WC drivers based at Picc and Lime St. sometime before the XC franchise was given to Arriva. That's why we have what we have. It is 6 drivers altogether that are taxied to or from Holyhead. Plus the daytime jobs as well which are also split between the depots.

Thanks for the explanation - as with many work practices in life they would like they evolved due to a particular set of circumstances rather than being designed from scratch with a clean slate.

Again this is more out of curiosity than any form of criticism - but that sounds more like a patchwork solution. Would it not make more sense to have a driver base at Holyhead who do similar turns to their TM colleagues?

I appreciate that driver and TM rosters will differ due to bringing trains to and from depots, but that's an extraordinarily long taxi transfer every day.

Do they all travel at once or separately?

 

[Philip]

No - you said one train from North Wales to London in the morning returning in the evening. Now you're saying abandon the morning trains from North Wales to London and their evening returns altogether. What does that solve? The sets would be lying idle at Chester until they join the existing paths of those trains from Holyhead there. You don't seem to know what you want.

Running both the 08:10 and 09:10 trains to Holyhead means you can provide ferry connections in both directions. Due to the need to fit into the WCML clockface pattern they have to wait an hour at Holyhead so one train cannot provide connections in both directions alone - otherwise people have an unacceptably long wait for a connection, which was the case until 2015. VT clearly felt it worthwhile to extend the train from Bangor to do just that.

You really aren't thinking this through at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Again this is more out of curiosity than any form of criticism - but that sounds more like a patchwork solution. Would it not make more sense to have a driver base at Holyhead who do similar turns to their TM colleagues?

I appreciate that driver and TM rosters will differ due to bringing trains to and from depots, but that's an extraordinarily long taxi transfer every day.

Do they all travel at once or separately?

You must have misread, but I said right from the start that one of the boat trains should be kept, I never mentioned keeping the early morning or evening trains, because I don't feel they should be kept. Why not fill the paths with additional early morning services from Holyhead/Bangor that arrive in Manchester and Liverpool before 09:00? Same with evening peak services from those destinations.

There is a comfortable waiting/departure lounge at Holyhead ferry terminal, is it really too much to ask passengers to wait there an extra hour before boarding for the ferry commences?

How many Voyager sets does the current VT service require?

 

[driver_m]

You must have misread, but I said right from the start that one of the boat trains should be kept, I never mentioned keeping the early morning or evening trains, because I don't feel they should be kept. Why not fill the paths with additional early morning services from Holyhead/Bangor that arrive in Manchester and Liverpool before 09:00? Same with evening peak services from those destinations.

There is a comfortable waiting/departure lounge at Holyhead ferry terminal, is it really too much to ask passengers to wait there an extra hour before boarding for the ferry commences?

How many Voyager sets does the current VT service require?

So you want to just get rid of the trains even though they are well filled with passengers for London? The people of N Wales are as likely to use a service to the capital as anyone else. Yet you want to send them on trains to places they're not going to. And if the terminal is as comfy as you say, why do I see people sleeping in the benches outside sometimes? Go and look at Bangor when any of our trains roll in towards London. Platform is no less filled than say, Wigan or Runcorn. I think the number of people who've responded to you suggests you've probably got this one wrong.

Of the pool of 20 voyagers, 18 are used I think during the day. They interwork with the other services like Wrexham and Blackpool in order to get them to Central Rivers.

 

[berneyarms]

You must have misread, but I said right from the start that one of the boat trains should be kept, I never mentioned keeping the early morning or evening trains, because I don't feel they should be kept. Why not fill the paths with additional early morning services from Holyhead/Bangor that arrive in Manchester and Liverpool before 09:00? Same with evening peak services from those destinations.

There is a comfortable waiting/departure lounge at Holyhead ferry terminal, is it really too much to ask passengers to wait there an extra hour before boarding for the ferry commences?

How many Voyager sets does the current VT service require?

I've corrected my original post. I had misread it.

So forcing people to wait an extra hour for a direct train or a ferry is a good thing??

I'm struggling to see any form of positive customer service in that suggestion.

So again - your idea would leave the three Voyagers sitting idle in Chester rather than being in operation earlier along the North Wales coast. How is that an improvement in resource utilisation?

Three voyagers overnight in Holyhead, one comes from Birmingham, and a net two from London (one is a double but cancels against the first train from Holyhead.

So six in total.

But again they are not exclusive to North Wales as they do other duties during the day - they're all interworked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to see hourly or two hourly N Wales services. But I know that a lack of stock is the main problem with that. Let's see what the proposals are first, but just for once can't people come up with some plans that actually can happen or it may as well be one of those fantasy threads like 'let's run a service from Brighton to Penzance via Castleford'

If stock could be found, a good, workable pattern might be two-hourly London (VT) and two-hourly Birmingham via Stafford (AW). These would have the same stopping pattern on the Coast as each other.

Perhaps then it'd make sense to revert to the old system of having a Holyhead-Llandudno and Llandudno-Blaenau local diagram using two (Class 150) units, which might allow an improved service on the branch, particularly by reinstating the evening peak train which was lost some time ago when it went to single-unit operation.

 

[driver_m]

If stock could be found, a good, workable pattern might be two-hourly London (VT) and two-hourly Birmingham via Stafford (AW). These would have the same stopping pattern on the Coast as each other.

Perhaps then it'd make sense to revert to the old system of having a Holyhead-Llandudno and Llandudno-Blaenau local diagram using two (Class 150) units, which might allow an improved service on the branch, particularly by reinstating the evening peak train which was lost some time ago when it went to single-unit operation.

The NW mainline needs one of those comprehensive all in one plans that other places get. We've got resignalling and 100mph running planned, we've got Liverpool services planned to somewhere, the eventual redoubling to Wrexham sometime in 2048 and also the ITT's for West Coast and Wales itself at some point. The reality is that we'll probably continue to have some sort of hotch potch because asking Westminster and Cardiff to sort it is going to result in basically what we have now. A mess.

It really needs one organisation to get hold of it and sort it properly.

 

[berneyarms]

The NW mainline needs one of those comprehensive all in one plans that other places get. We've got resignalling and 100mph running planned, we've got Liverpool services planned to somewhere, the eventual redoubling to Wrexham sometime in 2048 and also the ITT's for West Coast and Wales itself at some point. The reality is that we'll probably continue to have some sort of hotch potch because asking Westminster and Cardiff to sort it is going to result in basically what we have now. A mess.

It really needs one organisation to get hold of it and sort it properly.

You have hit the nail on the head with that - some integrated thinking certainly wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have hit the nail on the head with that - some integrated thinking certainly wouldn't go amiss.

And it would help if the Welsh Government didn't keep aping Scotland, which is geographically and economically very different (much more self-contained), and recognised the overriding importance of the adjacent parts of England to the Welsh economy, and the relative unimportance of Cardiff to anyone who doesn't live in South Wales.

 

[craigybagel]

If you go back. The mk3 & HST stock was driven by Holyhead FNW drivers as far as Crewe when we took over. Then came the 221s which were manned by XC Manchester drivers. Then the work was taken by WC drivers based at Picc and Lime St. sometime before the XC franchise was given to Arriva. That's why we have what we have. It is 6 drivers altogether that are taxied to or from Holyhead. Plus the daytime jobs as well which are also split between the depots.

Except for a certain Liverpool driver who doesn't need taxiing if he's still around?

There's been talk of VT opening up drivers depots at Holyhead and also Crewe (which sees several drivers from different depots working through every night moving Voyagers around) for years but it never happens. One issue I could see with a Holyhead drivers depot is I'm not sure how efficient it would be. It works for TMs (albeit with quite a lot of time travelling pass to and from Chester) because they work through to London on many of their jobs. Under the driver's T&Cs at Virgin I'm not sure if they'd be able to work all the way down and back in one shift?

 

[driver_m]

And it would help if the Welsh Government didn't keep aping Scotland, which is geographically and economically very different (much more self-contained), and recognised the overriding importance of the adjacent parts of England to the Welsh economy, and the relative unimportance of Cardiff to anyone who doesn't live in South Wales.

Ouch!! True though. Chester, Liverpool and Manchester are all far more relevant to North Wales than Cardiff. Just as North Wales is hugely important to NW England for tourism and high tech industry such as Broughton.

Still one up there Craigybagel, but not who you're thinking of!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It hasn't helped that VT has been essentially on a rolling 2-year interim franchise since the 2012 events, so no real incentive to change things.
The Voyager situation is restrictive too, no flexibility in changing the service until more tilting stock is available - if ever.
Franchise renewal gives the scope to review it all for 2018, but I suspect DfT and WG both have their eyes on other things, with the franchises being let independently.
Maybe the bidders will offer something new - it could of course be the same company running both franchises (not likely though, and not Virgin).

 

[berneyarms]

It hasn't helped that VT has been essentially on a rolling 2-year interim franchise since the 2012 events, so no real incentive to change things.
The Voyager situation is restrictive too, no flexibility in changing the service until more tilting stock is available - if ever.
Franchise renewal gives the scope to review it all for 2018, but I suspect DfT and WG both have their eyes on other things, with the franchises being let independently.
Maybe the bidders will offer something new - it could of course be the same company running both franchises (not likely though, and not Virgin).

To give VT some credit they did extend the 08:10 from Bangor to Holyhead in 2015 this enabling a direct boat train TO London to operate.

 

[dancoupe22]

From Welsh Government news page:

Economy and Infrastructure Secretary Ken Skates has today revealed the pre-qualified bidders for services on the new Wales and Borders franchise and Metro.
Wednesday 12 October 2016
Four bidders have been selected to progress to the next stage in the procurement process to operate rail services in Wales and the Borders from October 2018 as well take forward key aspects of the next stage of Metro.

This will form part of the Welsh Government’s ambition to deliver a new not for profit rail model similar to the way in which Transport for London manage public transport services.

The Operator and Development Partner (ODP) will help deliver on the Welsh Government’s commitment to an improved, faster and more accessible rail service fit for modern Wales.

The four pre-qualified ODP bidders (in alphabetical order) are:

Abellio Rail Cymru
Arriva Rail Wales/Rheilffyrdd Arriva Cymru Limited
KeolisAmey
MTR Corporation (Cymru) Ltd
Bidders will now progress to the next stage having demonstrated to the Welsh Government a track record and appetite for providing high quality services as well as the financial standing and expertise to ensure delivery.

Economy and Infrastructure Secretary Ken Skates said:

“I am pleased with the way we are taking forward our ambitious plans to transform rail services in Wales. The new Wales and borders service from 2018 and the next phase of the Metro are part of an ambitious and creative not for profit model that we are building for Welsh rail.

“The rail network will be managed by Transport for Wales and I am pleased to be able to announce progress today on who will deliver some key services within that model.

“We now have four highly skilled, experienced companies entering the next, competitive phase and I am keen to hear more from them about what they can offer Wales and how they can deliver on our plans for integrated public transport.

“Over the next 10 years I envisage significant strides in the delivery of our public transport network including the electrification of the Swansea, Valleys and North Wales lines, a South and North Wales Metro and widespread structural improvements that are already in the pipeline.

“The priorities for the next franchise will include updated rolling stock, reduced journey times and the use of modern technology and approaches to deliver an improved service for passengers across Wales.

“I’m confident that we are putting the building blocks in place to deliver on our ambition and I look forward to working with these bidders in developing a high quality integrated public transport system for Wales.”

The procurement process to select an Operational and Delivery Partner is being undertaken by Transport for Wales, a wholly owned, not-for-profit company established by the Welsh Government.

Transport for Wales will be publically consulting on proposals in early 2017, subject to that consultation process, it is anticipated that the final contract will be awarded by the end of 2017.

http://gov.wales/newsroom/transport/2016/161013-rail-operator-shortlist-revealed/?lang=en

 

[PHILIPE]

The process could present difficulties if one eye is on renewing the current franchise and the other on the South Wales Metro.

 

[northwichcat]

The process could present difficulties if one eye is on renewing the current franchise and the other on the South Wales Metro.

Could it be done LM style and have two separate business units as part of the same franchise?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets ignore the soundbites from Cardiff - I still have the WG press release telling us the current franchise was the dogs bollocks....

This is going to boil down to one thing - the so called M4 Relief Road - if WG gets its way the Metro will be scaled back and the franchise paired back to pay for the tarmac. WG simply does not have the resources to do both.

 

[Dai Corner]

Lets ignore the soundbites from Cardiff - I still have the WG press release telling us the current franchise was the dogs bollocks....

This is going to boil down to one thing - the so called M4 Relief Road - if WG gets its way the Metro will be scaled back and the franchise paired back to pay for the tarmac. WG simply does not have the resources to do both.

Well, they could raise taxes but have ruled out doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a half baked metro, a half baked M4 relief road, something in the North and it will all be blamed on the UK Government for giving us less money than the Scots.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well, they could raise taxes but have ruled out doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a half baked metro, a half baked M4 relief road, something in the North and it will all be blamed on the UK Government for giving us less money than the Scots.

Yes the basic problem from the start with the Welsh Government promise everything regardless of ability to deliver.

 

[Bevan Price]

Except for a certain Liverpool driver who doesn't need taxiing if he's still around?

There's been talk of VT opening up drivers depots at Holyhead and also Crewe (which sees several drivers from different depots working through every night moving Voyagers around) for years but it never happens. One issue I could see with a Holyhead drivers depot is I'm not sure how efficient it would be. It works for TMs (albeit with quite a lot of time travelling pass to and from Chester) because they work through to London on many of their jobs. Under the driver's T&Cs at Virgin I'm not sure if they'd be able to work all the way down and back in one shift?

Would it not be sensible for VT to sub-contract "Holyhead" Voyager driving to Arriva (or successor) ?

 

[craigybagel]

Would it not be sensible for VT to sub-contract "Holyhead" Voyager driving to Arriva (or successor) ?

Possibly, they certainly used to in FNW days. But then you'd need to increase the number of drivers at ATW, and you'd have a surplus at Virgin. You could TUPE them from Virgin to ATW, but they might end up being needed 100 miles away from home!

 

[Class 170101]

Lets ignore the soundbites from Cardiff - I still have the WG press release telling us the current franchise was the dogs bollocks....

This is going to boil down to one thing - the so called M4 Relief Road - if WG gets its way the Metro will be scaled back and the franchise paired back to pay for the tarmac. WG simply does not have the resources to do both.

What about if the winner proposes to do the Metro with its own money?

I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of subsidy needed falls - particularly based on numbers offered for East Coast, c2c, Greater Anglia and TPE.

 

[387star]

when will valley lines electrification happen?

will diesel units become available to oust pacers in the meantime or will they be life extended

 

[Gareth Marston]

What about if the winner proposes to do the Metro with its own money?

I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of subsidy needed falls - particularly based on numbers offered for East Coast, c2c, Greater Anglia and TPE.

South Wales Metro is never going to be a money maker for the operator if funded by themselves but will be for (South) Wales PLC. Hence its a publicly funded project.

 

[gareth950]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37634693
According to this article on the BBC news website:
"Negotiations are underway with Network Rail about handing over responsibility for the track on the core Valleys lines to the franchise holder."

Will this be the first time since 2002 that heavy rail infrastructure in the UK will be under the control of what will be a privately owned company, other than Network Rail?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lets ignore the soundbites from Cardiff - I still have the WG press release telling us the current franchise was the dogs bollocks....

This is going to boil down to one thing - the so called M4 Relief Road - if WG gets its way the Metro will be scaled back and the franchise paired back to pay for the tarmac. WG simply does not have the resources to do both.

So it should choose a fully comprehensive Metro system, which will be of far more benefit to the Welsh economy, environment and people of Wales in the long term than a few miles of environmentally destructive and fantastically expensive motorway over the site of special scientific interest designated Gwent levels.

If the WG can't get the Wales and Borders franchise and the Metro right now, it won't get another chance for 15 years. And Welsh Labour will lose all credibility as a government than can deliver big infrastructure projects that can bring real long term benefits to Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will this be the first time since 2002 that heavy rail infrastructure in the UK will be under the control of what will be a privately owned company, other than Network Rail?

The Island Line is fully under the control of Stagecoach, no? Though it will provide a precedent that Merseytravel would, I imagine, like to copy.

 

[Masbroughlad]

No shortlist (bid?) from First or Stagecoach?

 

[Dai Corner]

No shortlist (bid?) from First or Stagecoach?

Nope. According to the article linked to the only bidders to come forward were
Abellio, KeolisAmey, MTR and Arriva. All ultimately owned by foreign Governments.