Wales & Borders Franchise

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps one train a day each way between London and Holyhead would suffice?

Do you mean curtail the rest at Bangor? Would that actually free up any Voyagers?

There is plenty of demand for services past Chester on the Coast, and these should not be withdrawn. Indeed, I think there is a good argument for increasing them to hourly (i.e. extending *all* services through) even if that was at the expense of terminating them all at Bangor.

 

[krus_aragon]

Perhaps one train a day each way between London and Holyhead would suffice? Would free up some Voyagers too. The one that connects into the 13:50/14:00 ferries from Holyhead seems to be fairly well used.

Holyhead is still a reasonably sized town, I'd have thought an hourly service would still be justified for that reason? I do think the request stops between Bangor and Holyhead are perhaps too well served.

I'm not sold on the idea of cutting London services to one a day. (Shrewsbury warrants two a day already, and some would say more.) The current service reflects the tidal flow of people going to London in the morning, returning in the evening, with a few daytime services that (sometimes) line up nicely with ferry services. Who are you going to ask to switch on to 2/3-car local services: the London businessmen and politicians, or the luggage-laden ferry passengers?

As for the request stops on Anglesey, the service is basically 1tp2h (except a few extra stops for Valley and Llanfair). I wouldn't describe that as "too well served".

 

[Bletchleyite]

2/3-car local services

These, to be fair, are part of the problem - all should be at least 5x23m/6x20m. We need to pack in running regional expresses as toy trains. The Mk4s provide a good opportunity to extend all North Wales Coast services to the proper length.

 

[6Gman]

These, to be fair, are part of the problem - all should be at least 5x23m/6x20m. We need to pack in running regional expresses as toy trains. The Mk4s provide a good opportunity to extend all North Wales Coast services to the proper length.

You're going to be carting around an awful lot of fresh air ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're going to be carting around an awful lot of fresh air ...

Or get the quieter ones busier with good ticketing options. The A55 is busy, which means there is suppressed demand.


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[Clip]

Or get the quieter ones busier with good ticketing options. The A55 is busy, which means there is suppressed demand.


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Thats assuming that everyone/most who goes down that road is going to somewhere with a station and would rather be travelling by train instead of their car

 

[krus_aragon]

Thats assuming that everyone/most who goes down that road is going to somewhere with a station and would rather be travelling by train instead of their car

Indeed. For people from Llangefni, Beaumaris, Amlwch, Benllech, Caernarfon, Bethesda, Llanberis etc. the first good railhead is Bangor. Having driven there (through traffic on the Britannia Bridge in the former cases), is the railway preferable. to continuing the journey by car? In many cases, for medium distance journeys, it isn't. A higher frequency service may help (2tph well spaced would be approaching a “turn up and go” service), but who's got the money to pay for it?

(Note that all but one of the above places used to have through rail services to Bangor, pre-Beeching.)

 

[Phil from Mon]

Indeed. For people from Llangefni, Beaumaris, Amlwch, Benllech, Caernarfon, Bethesda, Llanberis etc. the first good railhead is Bangor. Having driven there (through traffic on the Britannia Bridge in the former cases), is the railway preferable. to continuing the journey by car? In many cases, for medium distance journeys, it isn't. A higher frequency service may help (2tph well spaced would be approaching a “turn up and go” service), but who's got the money to pay for it?

(Note that all but one of the above places used to have through rail services to Bangor, pre-Beeching.)

I'd imagine most people from eastern Anglesey would use the old bridge to Bangor, I certainly do. I would always use the train, if the timings were right, for anything further than the Llandudno area, and have occasionally (admittedly not very often) used it for meetings at the WG offices in Llandudno Junction too.

 

[berneyarms]

Perhaps one train a day each way between London and Holyhead would suffice? Would free up some Voyagers too. The one that connects into the 13:50/14:00 ferries from Holyhead seems to be fairly well used.

Holyhead is still a reasonably sized town, I'd have thought an hourly service would still be justified for that reason? I do think the request stops between Bangor and Holyhead are perhaps too well served.

The two Virgin services that arrive/depart Holyhead in the middle of the day serve the ferries to/from Dublin so I would leave them as is.

After that you have the three trains that overnight at Holyhead, and the early morning service from Birmingham and the evening terminator from London at Bangor which returns to Birmingham.

Would Bangor have the space and facilities to store trains overnight?

I don't see how you would be saving any sets - unless you're talking about removing some of the morning services to London from North Wales altogether along with their evening returns??

 

[krus_aragon]

I'd imagine most people from eastern Anglesey would use the old bridge to Bangor, I certainly do.

Yes, of course. I seemed unduly fixated on the Britannia given the earlier mention of the A55, but traffic over either bridge can be troublesome at times.

I would always use the train, if the timings were right, for anything further than the Llandudno area, and have occasionally (admittedly not very often) used it for meetings at the WG offices in Llandudno Junction too.

I'm glad to hear it, but many would not. For the second half of the twentieth century, my family (in the Amlwch/Llangefni area) would drive to Llandudno or even Chester. Travelling by train would only be considered for longer journeys, such as London, Birmingham, or (once) Swansea.

(My father went to Swansea by train for a university interview in the 70s, and was guided to change at Shrewsbury for what is now known as the Heart of Wales line. The “all shacks” journey did not do much endear him to railway travel!)

 

[Philip]

The two Virgin services that arrive/depart Holyhead in the middle of the day serve the ferries to/from Dublin so I would leave them as is.

After that you have the three trains that overnight at Holyhead, and the early morning service from Birmingham and the evening terminator from London at Bangor which returns to Birmingham.

Would Bangor have the space and facilities to store trains overnight?

I don't see how you would be saving any sets - unless you're talking about removing some of the morning services to London from North Wales altogether along with their evening returns??

That is what I mean. One service a day from London with the same train forming one service a day back to London.

Everything is too London-centric. Is it really vital that North Wales towns have a frequent London service? With an improved service to Crewe it would provide easy connections to London, making one change at Chester or Crewe without a long wait. For the sake of people having to make one change (at stations which provide disabled assistance and journey care), you could then free up capacity for better regional services and connections, whilst also freeing up a few Voyagers to boost capacity elsewhere.

I wouldn't even terminate a few at Bangor. All Virgin services, bar the one service I've mentioned, should terminate at Chester.

I think:

Holyhead-Chester 1 x train per hour with some, be it bi-hourly or less frequent, calling at request stops to Bangor.

Bangor-Chester 2 x trains per hour with 1 per hour serving request stops after Bangor, then both semi-fast from Llandudno Junction to Chester.

Llandudno-Chester 1 x train per hour calling all stations to Chester.

Holyhead-Cardiff 1 x train per day each way. Fast to Chester and Shrewsbury.

Holyhead-London 1 x train per day each way. Semi-fast to Chester

Other English destinations/origins open to debate.

 

[berneyarms]

That is what I mean. One service a day from London with the same train forming one service a day back to London.

Everything is too London-centric. Is it really vital that North Wales towns have a frequent London service? With an improved service to Crewe it would provide easy connections to London, making one change at Chester or Crewe without a long wait. For the sake of people having to make one change (at stations which provide disabled assistance and journey care), you could then free up capacity for better regional services and connections, whilst also freeing up a few Voyagers to boost capacity elsewhere.

I wouldn't even terminate a few at Bangor. All Virgin services, bar the one service I've mentioned, should terminate at Chester.

I think:

Holyhead-Chester 1 x train per hour with some, be it bi-hourly or less frequent, calling at request stops to Bangor.

Bangor-Chester 2 x trains per hour with 1 per hour serving request stops after Bangor, then both semi-fast from Llandudno Junction to Chester.

Llandudno-Chester 1 x train per hour calling all stations to Chester.

Holyhead-Cardiff 1 x train per day each way. Fast to Chester and Shrewsbury.

Holyhead-London 1 x train per day each way. Semi-fast to Chester

Other English destinations/origins open to debate.

To summarise the Virgin services:

04:48 Holyhead/London
05:51 Holyhead/London
06:55 Holyhead/London
08:55 Holyhead/London
12:52 Holyhead/London
13:58 Holyhead/London
20:20 Bangor/Birmingham

05:30 Birmingham/Holyhead
08:10 London/Holyhead
09:10 London/Holyhead
16:10 London/Bangor
17:10 London/Holyhead
18:10 London/Holyhead
19:10 London/Holyhead

First point is that the two middle of the day services are official boat connections from/to Dublin - why would you cancel two trains that actually carry large numbers of passengers and that offer decent Sail/Rail connections?

With the early morning trains you wouldn't be saving anything as all you would be doing would be starting two trains at Chester that currently start at Holyhead and the same in the evening. It would be too early/late to do anything worthwhile with them otherwise.

The only set that you could use elsewhere might be the sets that come from Birmingham and return in the morning and the Bangor terminator in the evening.

While I understand where you're coming from I don't see any real benefit in your suggestion, and frankly I cannot it imagine that it would be politically unacceptable.

 

[krus_aragon]

Everything is too London-centric. Is it really vital that North Wales towns have a frequent London service? With an improved service to Crewe it would provide easy connections to London, making one change at Chester or Crewe without a long wait. For the sake of people having to make one change (at stations which provide disabled assistance and journey care), you could then free up capacity for better regional services and connections, whilst also freeing up a few Voyagers to boost capacity elsewhere.

I don't have recent experience of Virgin's eatly services toward London, but I have been on many of their evening services back toward Holyhead, and find them well loaded. If you feel it is best for people to change at Chester, you'll need more carriages on the W&B services to convey them. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, perhaps?

Bear in mind that the main ICWC bidders last time weren't looking to cut services to reallocate Voyagers: they planned to introduce new stock, as I recall.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I don't have recent experience of Virgin's eatly services toward London, but I have been on many of their evening services back toward Holyhead, and find them well loaded. If you feel it is best for people to change at Chester, you'll need more carriages on the W&B services to convey them.

The 0922 from Bangor is almost always well loaded, sometimes full, by the time it gets to Chester, and those it sheds there get more than replaced. Can't speak for the other early London services but I would imagine they are pretty full going by the number of my colleagues going up and down to London.

The old 1422 departure from Bangor always used to be fairly quiet, not sure what it is like now it starts at Holyhead.

Changing trains, particularly at Chester where you also have to cross the bridge if going to London, is a pain if you have settled down to work for the journey or have a lot of luggage. And ATW would need to make sure their reservations were working if we all had to decant back into them at Chester when coming home.

 

[craigybagel]

ATW struggle with capacity on the coast as it is without removing the London services. You'd also end up putting about 80 HHD based VT traincrew out of a job as well, and it's not like there's a lot of alternative employment out there.

 

[driver_m]

Perhaps one train a day each way between London and Holyhead would suffice? Would free up some Voyagers too. The one that connects into the 13:50/14:00 ferries from Holyhead seems to be fairly well used.

Holyhead is still a reasonably sized town, I'd have thought an hourly service would still be justified for that reason? I do think the request stops between Bangor and Holyhead are perhaps too well served.

Just a question, but what would be your plan for all my Holyhead Colleagues who you've just made redundant with your 'plan'? A lot of you come up with these fantasy plans based on what you'd do with these cascades of sets to all sorts of places. Yet no thought whatsoever is given to how you might actually run these plans (and how you would recover what's left of Holyhead's economy)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW struggle with capacity on the coast as it is without removing the London services. You'd also end up putting about 80 HHD based VT traincrew out of a job as well, and it's not like there's a lot of alternative employment out there.

All we're saying I think is that there is a lot of fresh air at the periphery of the Welsh network, and overcrowding in the middle and to the big centres.
Westbound morning peak services on the coast are very empty, probably also eastbound evening services (same on the Cambrian and probably West Wales too).
It's the east/west balance that is very difficult to achieve.
There's also the duplication of some services, because the ATW and VT timetables don't combine very well when VT runs west of Chester.

 

[Philip]

Just a question, but what would be your plan for all my Holyhead Colleagues who you've just made redundant with your 'plan'? A lot of you come up with these fantasy plans based on what you'd do with these cascades of sets to all sorts of places. Yet no thought whatsoever is given to how you might actually run these plans (and how you would recover what's left of Holyhead's economy)

Transfer to W&B? Like FTPE Barrow and Blackpool drivers have transferred to Northern.

The North Wales timetable is a mess, not much in the way of a clockface timetable, the Virgin services don't really help in this aspect.

As I've said, strong regional connections from North Wales to the North West and the West Midlands would be a better use of the track capacity than regular Cardiff trains and the handful of London trains currently operating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also the duplication of some services, because the ATW and VT timetables don't combine very well when VT runs west of Chester.

That shouldn't be all that hard to fix with a proper clockface timetable. The North Wales Coast line is not used anywhere near capacity, so a pure clockface timetable should be feasible, even if you add the odd extra like Gerald.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

04:48 Holyhead/London
05:51 Holyhead/London
06:55 Holyhead/London
08:55 Holyhead/London
12:52 Holyhead/London
13:58 Holyhead/London

Ignoring the Brum one entirely as an outlier at quiet times, given that the WCML IC services do operate a pure clockface timetable with peak extras (as can be seen from the Euston times), what on earth has resulted in that hotch-potch?

Give them all the same stopping pattern if they don't already, and make all of those xx:55 (or xx:58 if necessary) off Holyhead and pure clockface thereafter.

 

[the sniper]

Ignoring the Brum one entirely as an outlier at quiet times, given that the WCML IC services do operate a pure clockface timetable with peak extras (as can be seen from the Euston times), what on earth has resulted in that hotch-potch?

Ferry arrivals/departures, or a legacy thereof?

 

[berneyarms]

Ignoring the Brum one entirely as an outlier at quiet times, given that the WCML IC services do operate a pure clockface timetable with peak extras (as can be seen from the Euston times), what on earth has resulted in that hotch-potch?

Give them all the same stopping pattern if they don't already, and make all of those xx:55 (or xx:58 if necessary) off Holyhead and pure clockface thereafter.

Ferry arrivals/departures, or a legacy thereof?

He is referring to the minutes past each hour that they operate - not the actual times themselves - they're not clockface.

To answer the original question as to why some of them don't leave at xx:55:

The 04:48 operates in a different pattern all the way along the WCML to Euston

The 05:51 has a longer wait at Chester to allow the Wrexham unit to join it

The 12:52 operates three minutes later to allow the ATW loco hauled set operate the boat train to Manchester at 13:05

The 13:58 does not stop at Prestatyn and Flint

 

[Phil from Mon]

That shouldn't be all that hard to fix with a proper clockface timetable. The North Wales Coast line is not used anywhere near capacity, so a pure clockface timetable should be feasible, even if you add the odd extra like Gerald.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ignoring the Brum one entirely as an outlier at quiet times, given that the WCML IC services do operate a pure clockface timetable with peak extras (as can be seen from the Euston times), what on earth has resulted in that hotch-potch?

Give them all the same stopping pattern if they don't already, and make all of those xx:55 (or xx:58 if necessary) off Holyhead and pure clockface thereafter.

VT is clock face to / from Chester, but the pattern along the coast is down to demand. They'd be carrying fresh air outside the eastbound morning journeys to London, and the westbound evening ones back, except for the ferry connections midday. ATW are pretty much clock face east along the coast, and not far off coming westbound.

 

[berneyarms]

The 0922 from Bangor is almost always well loaded, sometimes full, by the time it gets to Chester, and those it sheds there get more than replaced. Can't speak for the other early London services but I would imagine they are pretty full going by the number of my colleagues going up and down to London.

The old 1422 departure from Bangor always used to be fairly quiet, not sure what it is like now it starts at Holyhead.

Changing trains, particularly at Chester where you also have to cross the bridge if going to London, is a pain if you have settled down to work for the journey or have a lot of luggage. And ATW would need to make sure their reservations were working if we all had to decant back into them at Chester when coming home.

The 14:22 hasn't changed. It's always been the 13:58 from Holyhead.

What changed in recent times was that the 08:10 London-Bangor was extended to Holyhead, and the 12:24 Bangor-London became the 12:52 Holyhead-London. This change was made to provide connections off both morning ferries (Stena Line and Irish Ferries) from Dublin to London.

The 09:10 from London is the main connecting train into the two daytime ferry departures to Dublin from Holyhead.

The 08:10 London-Holyhead wouldn't probably be that busy but the return working, the 12:52 from Holyhead as it would have the loading from the boats.

Similarly the 09:10 London-Holyhead would be busy as it carries boat traffic, but the 13:58 return wouldn't as the boat traffic would have already gone.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Give them all the same stopping pattern if they don't already...

We don't want additional time added to our London journeys by adding in stops at Abergele and Shotton, let alone the smaller stops between Llandudno Jct and Bangor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 14:22 hasn't changed. It's always been the 13:58 from Holyhead.

Apologies, that's the one I meant.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ignoring the Brum one entirely as an outlier at quiet times, given that the WCML IC services do operate a pure clockface timetable with peak extras (as can be seen from the Euston times), what on earth has resulted in that hotch-potch?

The current logic is that when VT terminates at Chester at xx13, they feed into the ATW xx25 Chester-Holyhead.
Similarly westbound. (Bad luck for Llandudno passengers with a long wait or double change for London).
But when VT runs through, the ATW follows 10 minutes behind all the way to Holyhead.
You don't need the ATW at those hours.
A regular 2-hourly VT service to HHD would do the trick, with ATW in the opposite hour, but that is not possible with the Voyager stock available.

Also don't forget the HHD-based Voyagers are there for peak WCML main line services more than North Wales local services.

 

[berneyarms]

Transfer to W&B? Like FTPE Barrow and Blackpool drivers have transferred to Northern.

The North Wales timetable is a mess, not much in the way of a clockface timetable, the Virgin services don't really help in this aspect.

As I've said, strong regional connections from North Wales to the North West and the West Midlands would be a better use of the track capacity than regular Cardiff trains and the handful of London trains currently operating.

I don't disagree that the pattern is a mess - and it certainly does need a recast, but you're kind of missing the point somewhat and totally ignored the points I raised above as to why they operate.

You can sill leave an hourly path for VT services where needed and run a proper clockface service along the coast.

The two VT trains serving Holyhead at lunchtime are there, along with the ATW loco hauled set to/from Manchester due to the demand for direct trains to connect with the two inbound and outbound ferry sailings. The demand actually exists - why would you abandon it and force all of those passengers to make transfers at Chester?

I've already pointed out that you wouldn't gain anything from not starting the other early trains from Holyhead - they still would have to start at Chester. There isn't much point in that argument at all.

The service pattern needs a recast but I think your thoughts on the VT services are misguided. They provide much needed extra capacity and direct ferry connections that are pretty much essential along the coast.

 

[driver_m]

Transfer to W&B? Like FTPE Barrow and Blackpool drivers have transferred to Northern.

The North Wales timetable is a mess, not much in the way of a clockface timetable, the Virgin services don't really help in this aspect.

As I've said, strong regional connections from North Wales to the North West and the West Midlands would be a better use of the track capacity than regular Cardiff trains and the handful of London trains currently operating.

Those handful of London trains as you put it, serve a purpose. Not only do they serve ferry passengers, they also pick rather a lot of people up at Bangor onwards. Some are full and standing leaving Holyhead. You often get passengers off the very late arriving ferries who use the 0448 and will stay on the station for some considerable time.

You've also just uprooted a load of Liverpool and Manchester drivers over a 100 miles too with your plan. There is no driver depot at Holyhead. So where are all your drivers suddenly going to come from? (Might be a little bit of an issue uprooting people to somewhere completely different). As well as the issue of what you do with the caterers you've just got rid of.

I'd like to see hourly or two hourly N Wales services. But I know that a lack of stock is the main problem with that. Let's see what the proposals are first, but just for once can't people come up with some plans that actually can happen or it may as well be one of those fantasy threads like 'let's run a service from Brighton to Penzance via Castleford'

 

[berneyarms]

Just a question, but what would be your plan for all my Holyhead Colleagues who you've just made redundant with your 'plan'? A lot of you come up with these fantasy plans based on what you'd do with these cascades of sets to all sorts of places. Yet no thought whatsoever is given to how you might actually run these plans (and how you would recover what's left of Holyhead's economy)

VT don't have drivers based at Holyhead though do they?

They have train managers and catering staff based there for sure, but I seem to recall that the drivers are all taxied in and out each night?

Or has that changed?

 

[craigybagel]

VT don't have drivers based at Holyhead though do they?

They have train managers and catering staff based there for sure, but I seem to recall that the drivers are all taxied in and out each night?

Or has that changed?

Driver M answered that at the same time as you posted so you probably missed it, but yes that is indeed the case, Manchester and Liverpool drivers with some taxiing and some working to and from Crewe. All HHD and BNG services do use HHD TM's though,no other TM signs the coast, and most of the catering crews are based there as well. The figure of 80 I gave was a rough guess for the 2 combined, but it's been 5 years since I worked that line as catering staff.

 

[berneyarms]

Driver M answered that at the same time as you posted so you probably missed it, but yes that is indeed the case, Manchester and Liverpool drivers with some taxiing and some working to and from Crewe. All HHD and BNG services do use HHD TM's though,no other TM signs the coast, and most of the catering crews are based there as well. The figure of 80 I gave was a rough guess for the 2 combined, but it's been 5 years since I worked that line as catering staff.

Indeed he did. It was more of an observation on my part, asking the question.

Yes you're probably not far off with that guess given you probably have early, late, and middle shifts, along with rest day cover.

Presumably there are three drivers taxied in each morning and back each night every weekday - that's a lot of downtime and indeed cost in taxi fares.

Always seemed odd to me that they didn't have a driver depot there too and that you would have similar driver and TM rosters.