Waiting for passengers when platform changes

[6Gman]

Is there an ATOC policy on what should happen when late changes are made to platforms?

Back story: Catching a Birmingham train at L/pool Sth Parkway. Departure screen says Plat.3 (Up Slow). Screen on plat.3 confirms. At departure time train rolls into Plat.1 (Up Fast). No announcements but passengers recognise train and head for stairs. Some make it, some don't.

I e-mailed LM who explain/claim that trains have to depart when signal cleared to avoid further delay and therefore train could not be held for passengers.

BUT at Crewe, when platforms are changed there is usually an announcement along the lines of 'please cross to Plat. x in a calm and orderly fashion' and trains are held for passengers.

So is there a policy?

 

[Anvil1984]

If you're departing from somewhere which is self despatch like Liverpool SP then you may not know there is a platform change so you go as per timetable. If you go from a staff despatch station they tend to explain what has happened and hold you

 

[6Gman]

If you're departing from somewhere which is self despatch like Liverpool SP then you may not know there is a platform change so you go as per timetable. If you go from a staff despatch station they tend to explain what has happened and hold you

I can understand that point, but I think the Conductor must have noticed people streaming from the staircase!

 

[DJL]

It happens a lot at London Bridge.
Between platform 1 and 2 it isn't an issue and trains don't wait but when it happens between 4 and 5 trains do usually wait a few minutes, but only if it was a last minute change.

You don't want to hold too long or the next train might also be switched and it could quickly turn to caos!

 

[LBSCR Times]

It happens a lot at London Bridge.
Between platform 1 and 2 it isn't an issue and trains don't wait but when it happens between 4 and 5 trains do usually wait a few minutes, but only if it was a last minute change.

You don't want to hold too long or the next train might also be switched and it could quickly turn to caos!

Or in the case of Southbound FCC services, 2 or 3 minutes delay is all it needs to end up following a a Southern service out of the 'Central' side of London Bridge, and get to East Croydon 10 minutes late, with a considerable knock-on to the following services on the Brighton main line.

 

[A-driver]

On DOO services you would be surprised how little of the platform the driver can see. It would be very easy for a driver to have no clue whatsoever that there has been a platform change and not have any view of the stairs onto the platform or the dozens of passengers running to catch the train. In that case there would be no reason for the driver to wait and the driver would probably imagine any people running on after the doors closed were just running late and ignore them.

 

[PHILIPE]

It often used to happen at Newport before the station was refurbished (horribly) and re-signalled in the case of a westbound train (usually West Wales bound) was diverted from Platform 2 to Platform 1. (Self despatch) The tannoy announcement came as the train was running in and as the bi-lingual language used Welsh first, People would have to dash across the bridge as the train was leaving. Despite many hours on Newport statio, I have never yet heard any real voice announcement.

 

[Silv1983]

Rarely a problem at Manchester Victoria - for with the exception of a few through services where the driver doesn't change - the last second platform change usually results in the driver plodding over the bridge behind all the passengers sprinting. I have occasionally remarked, whilst clutching my bag in one hand and a brew in the other: "Don't run folks it won't move without me..."

 

[Chapeltom]

Is there an ATOC policy on what should happen when late changes are made to platforms?

Back story: Catching a Birmingham train at L/pool Sth Parkway. Departure screen says Plat.3 (Up Slow). Screen on plat.3 confirms. At departure time train rolls into Plat.1 (Up Fast). No announcements but passengers recognise train and head for stairs. Some make it, some don't.

I e-mailed LM who explain/claim that trains have to depart when signal cleared to avoid further delay and therefore train could not be held for passengers.

BUT at Crewe, when platforms are changed there is usually an announcement along the lines of 'please cross to Plat. x in a calm and orderly fashion' and trains are held for passengers.

So is there a policy?

Presume that was the xx:15 departure? Very rare indeed for that to leave off Platform 1 at LPY, its a good 2 minute walk from Platform 3 to 1, 42 steps up and 42 steps down. The :15 from Norwich/Nottingham to Lime St leaves off Platform 2, so a strange alteration given they'd be virtually crossing paths.

Not quite sure why people weren't given chance to board the train when there was a late platform alteration. When a change from fasts to slow platform happens at Mossley Hill on the stoppers, (2 stops down from LPY) there is always a manual announcement made to the guard for the train to be held.

 

[Starmill]

Some announcements period would significantly improve Liverpool South Parkway by my reckoning! But yes, that's a local issue.

 

[Chapeltom]

Terrible lack of information there. I once arrived at 1630 for the 1709 to Chinley but when I saw the 1615, the inbound service only coming through at 1645, I knew it was going to be late. I expected it around 1725-1730ish, so stood on the bridge and waited for it the lights of the train to become visible at that sort of time. Unfortunately many already on platform 1 did not put two and two together and were quite angry by the time it came at gone 1730.

 

[fairysdad]

Back story: Catching a Birmingham train at L/pool Sth Parkway. Departure screen says Plat.3 (Up Slow). Screen on plat.3 confirms. At departure time train rolls into Plat.1 (Up Fast). No announcements but passengers recognise train and head for stairs. Some make it, some don't.

In such a situation where a platform alteration is not announced, if you were a visitor to the area, as in somebody who wouldn't recognise the train as it pulled in, and didn't follow the crowds of people on the platform as they rushed to another one, had an advance ticket for that train (or the train was the last one that went to the station you wanted) - what would happen? You would have missed the train you needed to catch, through no fault of your own, so theoretically the TOC would have to make arrangements for you to continue your journey, but actually would they, or would they make up excuses to avoid it (or blame Network Rail)?

 

[harz99]

LPY seems to have been built with all the information screens located in the area between the bus station and rail station, which is fine if your interchange is bus to train or train to bus.

When I last changed trains there I couldn't see any information screens on platforms except those for the next departure from each platform. If there are any future departures info screens at platform level they are well hidden.

So I went upstairs and eventually found what I needed outside (past the exit gates?). For a stranger to the area it's very poor indeed.

 

[Bantamzen]

Late platform changes, or passenger chess as I used to call it, was often a big problem when I used to commute through Leeds. It was often the case that late platform changes were made due to late running services & diagram changes, sometimes involving the a long run between platforms like 11c or 12b across the station to far distant (or so they seemed) platforms like 3 or 4, or if your were really unlucky 1a!!

During some periods of poor weather & many late running / changed services predicting the platform a service would use became something of a dark art even for platform staff, let alone the commuters. Luckily I became skilled in using a combination of observing Northern's station staff, the position & running of services around mine, NR's live timings on the net & even the points between platforms 11 & 12 (I often caught the old 07:23 ex Selby to Wakefield via Bradford which was usually booked on 11c). So much so, I could sometimes predict the platform of a changed service even before the message went out to staff on the radios. Many of my fellow regular commuters would watch me like a hawk & if I started to head for another platform or the departure boards, they would follow me.

I know that changes are made to try & minimise disruption & keep things moving smoothly, but it did occasionally feel like someone at Leeds control was playing a game, hence my description of commuter chess. One time we were moved from 11c to 9a, then to 8a, 12a, 12c & then back to 11c when our service was running some 20 min late. I felt like shouting "Checkmate" when the train finally rolled in!!

 

[Max]

Pretty much the same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago at Hackney Downs. I was taking a non-stop train to Liverpool Street which was, according to the screens, from platform 1 (the fast lines so this makes sense). At about the time the train was due a unit rolled into 3. I was fairly sure there was no other Liverpool Street train due so quickly checked realtimetrains and realised that there had been a last minute platform alteration! This had been reflected on the screen as my train was no longer on the board on platform 1, but there were no announcements and I had a mad dash to make it. Other people missed the train sadly but I did feel the lack of information was quite poor for a relatively busy suburban station in London!

 

[fowler9]

LPY seems to have been built with all the information screens located in the area between the bus station and rail station, which is fine if your interchange is bus to train or train to bus.

When I last changed trains there I couldn't see any information screens on platforms except those for the next departure from each platform. If there are any future departures info screens at platform level they are well hidden.

So I went upstairs and eventually found what I needed outside (past the exit gates?). For a stranger to the area it's very poor indeed.

There is I think a full information board on the bridge, as you say though it is hardly ideal and I think an announcement would have been handy. It must have been apparent to someone that the train was on the fast line for a good 3 or 4 miles.

 

[Aictos]

I've had times which a train on Platform 1 has been cancelled and I've taken the decision to hold the train on Platform 3 for a extra minute or two to get the majority of people onto a train especially when you've got 60 plus people to contend with.

 

[causton]

Do Greater Anglia's PIS systems automatically detect platform changes based on the position of points without any manual input?

Last year one time when I was waiting at Maryland for a C2C train (I presume driver training runs) to run through, the train switched from the slow to the fast lines just as it was approaching the station. This caused a 'Platform alteration' message to play as the stopping train to Liverpool Street was just behind. Of course, as the C2C train passed, the points moved back and the train arrived on the original platform, like it always does! Could have caught people out twice there though!

...If this is the case, it would explain one time I was at St Albans, saw a non-stop train on the boards on Platform 1 (the slow up platform) and waited a while, to realise the train was arriving on Platform 3. I asked station staff why the change had not been announced and they said "The xxxx always leaves from Platform 3!" Checked the schedule on RTT, it said platform 3 scheduled, asked First Capital Connect who said there was nothing in the system to suggest it should use platform 1 at all!

 

[6Gman]

There is I think a full information board on the bridge, as you say though it is hardly ideal and I think an announcement would have been handy. It must have been apparent to someone that the train was on the fast line for a good 3 or 4 miles.

I'm assuming the train ran Slow Line from Wavertree Junction and then switched to the Fast at Allerton West Junction which is very close to the LPY platforms. So it was, genuinely, a late switch. Quite why must remain a mystery! (One of the annoying features of the reply from LM is that there's no evidence of the case being investigated, just an apology. I don't want an apology - or delay repay - I just want steps taken to prevent it happening in future!)

 

[Chrisgr31]

I must admit I would not be impressed if a train had been announced at one platform and then swapped to another with no announcement and as a result that I missed it.

I,d be making a Delay Repay application I guess!

 

[fowler9]

I'm assuming the train ran Slow Line from Wavertree Junction and then switched to the Fast at Allerton West Junction which is very close to the LPY platforms. So it was, genuinely, a late switch. Quite why must remain a mystery! (One of the annoying features of the reply from LM is that there's no evidence of the case being investigated, just an apology. I don't want an apology - or delay repay - I just want steps taken to prevent it happening in future!)

It would be massively unusual for the train to switch back to the fast line just before South Parkway. In fact I have never seen that happen, not to say that it never happens of course.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I had one at Birmingham New Street in December, where the Cardiff Central train was changed to a different platform as the booked platform was being occupied by a delayed Bristol Temple Meads service. I realised this before the announcement and had already retreated to the concourse ready for the change, but that announcement did not come until the last minute (despite the train sitting in the new platform for 2 minutes prior).

 

[6Gman]

It would be massively unusual for the train to switch back to the fast line just before South Parkway. In fact I have never seen that happen, not to say that it never happens of course.

Well the only alternative is that it came FL all the way from Edge Hill - but if that was the case why would it ever have been shown to plat.3?

 

[fowler9]

Well the only alternative is that it came FL all the way from Edge Hill - but if that was the case why would it ever have been shown to plat.3?

Sorry chief, not saying you are wrong or anything. Just that they very rarely take the slow from by the Mystery park near Edge Hill and then swap back to the fast line before South Parkway. I use the route all the time and it passes the bottom of my garden. On the way out of town they tend to stick with the slow line to platform 3 all the way to South Parkway or not at all. Oddly enough they rarely use the slow line on the way in to Liverpool. Depending on timings they tend to shift the Northern rail service over to the slow line just after South Parkway. Pretty much the only train using platform 4 at South Parkway is the Blackpool service if it still runs.

 

[6Gman]

Sorry chief, not saying you are wrong or anything. Just that they very rarely take the slow from by the Mystery park near Edge Hill and then swap back to the fast line before South Parkway. I use the route all the time and it passes the bottom of my garden. On the way out of town they tend to stick with the slow line to platform 3 all the way to South Parkway or not at all. Oddly enough they rarely use the slow line on the way in to Liverpool. Depending on timings they tend to shift the Northern rail service over to the slow line just after South Parkway. Pretty much the only train using platform 4 at South Parkway is the Blackpool service if it still runs.

I'm sure you're right Fowler. On the very, very rare occasions that I've been on a Desiro that's gone SL from Edge Hill it's stayed there to Halewood. Which makes events on this particular occasion so puzzling.

 

[fowler9]

I'm sure you're right Fowler. On the very, very rare occasions that I've been on a Desiro that's gone SL from Edge Hill it's stayed there to Halewood. Which makes events on this particular occasion so puzzling.

Spot on mate, and doubtless a pain in the behind for many people at the time. It is a real shame because I think South Parkway is a real local asset and it would be a shame if they mess that up in some peoples eyes with sloppy customer services.

 

[VisualAcid]

I had one at Birmingham New Street in December, where the Cardiff Central train was changed to a different platform as the booked platform was being occupied by a delayed Bristol Temple Meads service. I realised this before the announcement and had already retreated to the concourse ready for the change, but that announcement did not come until the last minute (despite the train sitting in the new platform for 2 minutes prior).

This happened to me earlier in the week, I had a lot of Luggage so missed my booked train to Gloucester which was a pain , an hour waiting at New Street is not a good hour!

 

[louis97]

Do Greater Anglia's PIS systems automatically detect platform changes based on the position of points without any manual input?

No, CIS systems on the stations don't work like that. They work using Train Describers only, generally platform alterations are based upon movement of a train describers in the area of crossovers nearby - although sometimes this information can be lacking to say the least, and platform alterations can take a while to appear even though the train may of passed the last possible crossover point.

 

[Taunton]

I honestly cannot recall too-late platform information being an issue until the last 10 years, but now that a 'couldn't care less' attitude about it as part of the overall 'right time departure' paranoia seems to be creeping in, whoever is in charge of franchising this week should implement a system which requires it to be managed - if passengers are there on time but are misdirected to the extent of missing their train it needs to be chalked up as a cancellation, just as much as if the train had never turned up.

Equally bad is not advising the platform at all until the last moment, and sometimes so late that those who have been waiting for information miss it. I hear that Marylebone has developed a reputation for this, to the extent of trains actually departing empty with everyone still waiting on the concourse - of course, they are chalked up in the official statistics as 'right time'.

 

[causton]

No, CIS systems on the stations don't work like that. They work using Train Describers only, generally platform alterations are based upon movement of a train describers in the area of crossovers nearby - although sometimes this information can be lacking to say the least, and platform alterations can take a while to appear even though the train may of passed the last possible crossover point.

I didn't think they do, but I don't know how else that situation could be explained:

Trains 1 and 2 on slow line outside station
Train 1 uses crossover to fast line, Train 2 at previous station half a mile away
Train 1 passes station using fast line
Announcement plays saying Train 2 will be arriving on the fast line
Train 2 arrives into station on the slow line!

Unless someone somewhere in some sort of GA control was looking at P2, saw the points were changed, assumed the GA stopper would go out onto the fast as well and manually did the platform alteration...