WAG Express

[Greenback]

It's also worth pointing out that Manchester - Llandudno, Birmingham - Shrewsbury services are also "jam-packed" at peak times, with many people standing, and I can't help thinking there's a first class market on this route also.

Where there are packed 2 car trains, first class probably isn;t justifiable on moral grounds!

If I were starting from scratch, the routes that I think wuld merit some sort of premium or first class accommodation would be Manchester to Cardiff and Holyhead to Birmingham and Cardiff. I think there ar eprobably more routes across the UK that would warrant FC than currently exist.

That's just my personal view, though, there ar ea lot of people out there who think it should be completely abolished!

 

[truckman060473]

With regards to the seating arrangements - comparing a Manchester train using say a 3 car 175 vs a 4 coach loco hauled service, wouldn't they be quite similar in passenger capacity considering the mk2 stock has all table seats and the brake coach having less seats than the TSO's

 

[sprinterguy]

Where there are packed 2 car trains, first class probably isn;t justifiable on moral grounds!

If I were starting from scratch, the routes that I think wuld merit some sort of premium or first class accommodation would be Manchester to Cardiff and Holyhead to Birmingham and Cardiff. I think there ar eprobably more routes across the UK that would warrant FC than currently exist.

That's just my personal view, though, there ar ea lot of people out there who think it should be completely abolished!

I too think that it is strange that such a long distance route as Manchester-Cardiff, with the typical passenger mix including business travellers on those services, has had no consideration of first class provision. Though of course it's just not possible with a fleet of two and three car trains, but you would think that it would be an argument for the introduction of loco hauled services.

There's enough mark 3 restaurant vehicles, to act as first class vehicles, available to form up the maximum five or so trains that would be possible with the number of mark 2s ATW has with a similar consist to the current WAG Express.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With regards to the seating arrangements - comparing a Manchester train using say a 3 car 175 vs a 4 coach loco hauled service, wouldn't they be quite similar in passenger capacity considering the mk2 stock has all table seats and the brake coach having less seats than the TSO's

A three car 175 has 186 seats. A four coach loco hauled formation of three mark 2 TSOs and one BSO (Though the BSO probably wouldn't feature in a push-pull rake with a DVT at one end) would have a total of 224 seats.

 

[merlodlliw]

Who knows what November will bring - if first class is retained, then some form of rationalisation - which I think is what you're suggesting - is probably on the cards. Reduced services - more pringles and pre-packed sandwiches, instead of welsh mountain lamb and claret - will reduce prices and increase utilization.

The big advantage of 67s / DVT push-pull stock is that they effectively become units, so need for run-rounds etc, which should make them more flexible. The downside is that putting them on Manchester services will cost ATW more money in track access charges.....but I'd welcome any 3hr+ ATW services moving to Mark 2 or 3 coaching stock.

I have not heard any rumour that the current Minister will be buying out the remaining three years of Wagair,which is so despised by all political parties & due to lack of demand by business as turned into a tourist flight to try & keep up numbers,this flight will be got rid off as an expensive taxpayers failure at the first opportunity,but I suspect some 1st class or Chiltern type mainline upgrade will be available on the push pull 67s as a result of the Holyhead/Cardiff flights ending, but the Premier type service proved to attract little custom, 2s & 3s only using Premier service can not be justified at taxpayers expense in a recession, when other services are calling out for extra capacity which exists with standing room only.

Welsh mountain lamb & Bordeaux is an interesting mix, On the 67s I expect Pringle &
Brains skull attack might be considered, precooked Llyn lamb with Wrexham lager, now that's a thought.
Etape Cymru
We have Etape Cymru here today, all the roads are closed where I live, I am landlocked,me and the neighbours are not going to get on with the marshals, http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Sport&F=1&id=22681, hope some come to watch via train

see you
Bob

 

[All Line Rover]

If I were starting from scratch, the routes that I think wuld merit some sort of premium or first class accommodation would be Manchester to Cardiff and Holyhead to Birmingham and Cardiff. I think there ar eprobably more routes across the UK that would warrant FC than currently exist.

That's just my personal view, though, there ar ea lot of people out there who think it should be completely abolished!

There are also many routes where First Class shouldn't exist, but does exist. And no, First Class shouldn't be abolished.

 

[tbtc]

There are also many routes where First Class shouldn't exist, but does exist

Examples?

 

[jones_bangor]

Examples?

It depends on what sort of First Class maybe?

Some operators only offer 2+2 seating - the only real advantge I can see is that the coach is quieter.

 

[Rhydgaled]

One drawback is that the extension of the services to West Wales would be lost. This means that there would be long turn around times at Cardiff under the present timetable.

Cut the Manchester services at Swansea rather than Cardiff as I suggested the other day? ie. LHCS Swansea - Manchester, 175 Swansea - Carmarthen/Milford. I think if Cardiff - Manchester gets LHCS trains, the LHCS should go at least as far as Swansea unless either the Portsmouth - Cardiff or Nottingham - Cardiff is extended to Swansea/Milford in the place of the lost Manchesters. I fact, I think Portsmouth might be a more sensible destonation than Manchester for west Wales, since going down to Swansea/Cardiff then back up is rather indirect compared to heading directly north-east by car/bus (or going north to Aberystwyth and boarding a Cambrian service) and getting a train to Manchester from, say, Shrewsbury.

Pity the service attaches to/from the cambrian trains at Shrewsbury otherwise i would say put loco hauled trains on some of the busier services.

One idea I have is to have all LM's 170 routes electrified, send the 170s to Northen and let LM take over the fast Shrewsbury - Birmingham services. That would free up the 158s for more Cambrian services etc, but would mean the Cambrian services all terminate at Shrewsbury. Something else which would be nice, but impossible, would be to take ETRMS gear out of the 158s and put it in 159s instead. The 159s would then replace the 158s on the Cambrian, making 6 car east of Machynllyth and 3-car on both the Aberystwyth and Pwllheli routes.

A three car 175 has 186 seats. A four coach loco hauled formation of three mark 2 TSOs and one BSO (Though the BSO probably wouldn't feature in a push-pull rake with a DVT at one end) would have a total of 224 seats.

I think a 2-car 158 has more seats than a 2-car 175 also. How would a pair of 158s (ie. a 4-car train), or a hybrid 3-car set like FGW's, compare to 3 mrk2 TSOs and a BSO?

 

[sprinterguy]

I think a 2-car 158 has more seats than a 2-car 175 also. How would a pair of 158s (ie. a 4-car train), or a hybrid 3-car set like FGW's, compare to 3 mrk2 TSOs and a BSO?

It is true that a two car 158 has more seats than a 2 car 175. I believe that ATWs' 158s have 134 seats, though I don't have a figure for the refurbished units. So a three car hybrid 158 would have around 200 seats, and a pair of 158s would have over 260.

 

[All Line Rover]

Examples?

Southern, Southeastern, NXEA local services and FGW Turbostar services from London to Oxford. First Class is frequently empty on these routes - even though Standard Class can be packed - and considering local operators such as ATW, Merseyrail, Northern and ScotRail can cope without First Class (even though Northern really should have First Class on certain routes), I don't see why these other operators "require" First Class accommodation (that is identical to Standard Class, and sometimes worse!).

 

[Greenback]

As we have discussed before, it's a revenue generator. As long as there are those commuters who are happy to pay a lot more for a greater chance of a seat, then it's worth having it. Even Chiltern are bringing back a premier product despite once having removed all first class!

Where would the revenue be made up from if it was removed?

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW Stakeholder Managers Michael Vaughan and Ben Davies attended our AGM yesterday when questioned they stated that they have had no indication from WG as to what revised national transport plan or future of WAG Expresses will be and are as much in the dark as the rest of us.

Also said that and I quote directly "there are no capacity issues on valleys lines".

 

[Greenback]

Capacity as in overcrowding or track capacity?

 

[tbtc]

Southern, Southeastern, NXEA local services and FGW Turbostar services from London to Oxford. First Class is frequently empty on these routes - even though Standard Class can be packed - and considering local operators such as ATW, Merseyrail, Northern and ScotRail can cope without First Class (even though Northern really should have First Class on certain routes), I don't see why these other operators "require" First Class accommodation (that is identical to Standard Class, and sometimes worse!).

That'll be news to those who use most Scotrail 170s...

 

[All Line Rover]

That'll be news to those who use most Scotrail 170s...

Most ScotRail commuter routes do not have First Class. ScotRail have chosen not to have First Class on the new trains they are introducing, for example. The only routes to have First Class are Glasgow Central to Edinburgh (because this is used by many business travellers) and Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness (because this is an InterCity service, also used by many business travellers).

The TOC's I mentioned operate in completely different markets (and ScotRail's commuter routes are a similar market).

 

[anthony263]

Capacity as in overcrowding or track capacity?

Not sure. the peak hour trains I have seen are very overcrowded at times, especially those to/from Treherbert or Rhymney. These service need at least 5 carriages during the peaks.

 

[Greenback]

The TOC's I mentioned operate in completely different markets (and ScotRail's commuter routes are a similar market).

All the TOC's and routes that you think should abolish FC are in the south east. All of the ones whose local and commuter services don;t have FC are in more deprived. I think that has an enormous impact on revenue.

Anyway, the fact that Glasgow to Milngavie has no first class doesn't mean that Cardiff to Manchester or Leeds to Carlisle doesn't deserve it!

Not sure. the peak hour trains I have seen are very overcrowded at times, especially those to/from Treherbert or Rhymney. These service need at least 5 carriages during the peaks.

Indeed, those routes seem to be pretty busy whenever I travel on them, even during the off peak. What I always find encouraging is the amount of short distance travel on the Valleys network. A lot of people seem to make local journeys in the Rhondda, it's not all about Cardiff commuting as some people might think!

 

[jones_bangor]

Not sure. the peak hour trains I have seen are very overcrowded at times, especially those to/from Treherbert or Rhymney. These service need at least 5 carriages during the peaks.

Rhymney did have 37s and LHCS (what is now used for ATW Express) until relatively recently.

 

[tbtc]

Most ScotRail commuter routes do not have First Class. ScotRail have chosen not to have First Class on the new trains they are introducing, for example. The only routes to have First Class are Glasgow Central to Edinburgh (because this is used by many business travellers) and Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness (because this is an InterCity service, also used by many business travellers).

The TOC's I mentioned operate in completely different markets (and ScotRail's commuter routes are a similar market).

All thats happened is that they've introduced "standard class only" units to replace other "standard class only" units on some of the shorter distance flows - they've not got rid of FC on any route I can think of (?). When the 170s (the majority of which have FC) are replaced by EMUs I strongly expect these EMUs to have First Class
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

those routes seem to be pretty busy whenever I travel on them, even during the off peak. What I always find encouraging is the amount of short distance travel on the Valleys network. A lot of people seem to make local journeys in the Rhondda, it's not all about Cardiff commuting as some people might think!

Yeah, that surprised me when I first went down there - I expected the train to empty out as it left Cardiff - in fact there are a lot of "flows" that don't involve Cardiff and a lot of seats get occupied at least twice between Cardiff and Merthyr (etc).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are indeed good non Cardiff flows which help the economics - Ponty to the top of the Valley , students travelling contra flow to the university there etc. Helped by the zonal fare system.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Valley lines have always been busy, because they are there, I have friends in the Valleys who use trains just for local journeys, and always have done, we in North East Wales have been educated to use the bus,Wrexham to Chester is a perfect example, one train an hour, one bus every 12 minutes direct to Chester Rail Station,with WAG funding we have new bus routes appearing,the latest being Wrexham to Rhyl, one an hour seven days a week,Wrexham to Whitchurch etc. Wrexham to Barmouth every hour, on the route of the Ruabon line

But I must be fair, the trains Wrexham to Bidston are free to over 60s.So long as its to a Welsh Station,nine in total, surprisingly Upton/Heswell & Neston are Welsh managed stations,WAGS foot into England, but don't count in the free pass, Yet on the Buses Wrexham destinations to Chester/Whitchurch are free.

The train as been used for generations in the Valleys, its a way of life.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

There were much poorer services in the Valleys during the 1970's and early 1980's. I seem tor ecall a bi hourly 'shuttle' service between Bargoed and Rhymney at one stage.

Although Treherbert has had a pretty good service, Merthyr has only been half hourly for a couple of years, and, of course, Aberdare, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale have only got their services back in 1988, 1992 and 2008 IIRC!

 

[tbtc]

The train as been used for generations in the Valleys

Sadly, Bob, its the *same* trains which have been used in the Valleys for a generation or two - this'd be the perfect place to start Pacer replacement IMHO

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the service enhancements that have been made have not been accompanied by any new stock!

What Wales needs now is extra stock, and electrification fo the Valleys network, together with redoubling at Gowerton and between Chester and Wrexham.

 

[sprinterguy]

The Valley lines have always been busy, because they are there, I have friends in the Valleys who use trains just for local journeys, and always have done, we in North East Wales have been educated to use the bus,Wrexham to Chester is a perfect example, one train an hour, one bus every 12 minutes direct to Chester Rail Station,with WAG funding we have new bus routes appearing,the latest being Wrexham to Rhyl, one an hour seven days a week,Wrexham to Whitchurch etc. Wrexham to Barmouth every hour, on the route of the Ruabon line

But I must be fair, the trains Wrexham to Bidston are free to over 60s.So long as its to a Welsh Station,nine in total, surprisingly Upton/Heswell & Neston are Welsh managed stations,WAGS foot into England, but don't count in the free pass, Yet on the Buses Wrexham destinations to Chester/Whitchurch are free.

The train as been used for generations in the Valleys, its a way of life.

Bob

One only has to look at the incredibly successful reopening of the Ebbw Vale line to see that rail can also still attract considerable numbers of new passengers if frequencies and station locations are well thought out though. Although of course it could just be the case that the travel habits of passengers in the Ebbw Vale are influenced by those of the neighbouring valleys.

 

[anthony263]

Yes, the service enhancements that have been made have not been accompanied by any new stock!

What Wales needs now is extra stock, and electrification fo the Valleys network, together with redoubling at Gowerton and between Chester and Wrexham.

I agree and it enables the clas 150's to get new engines and an overhaul before being sent to work routes in west wales as well as the heart of wales line. Another option is perhaps for the 150's to completly replace the class 153's, especially since the class 150's can keep to time better since they can accelerate much faster and the door layout is better for passengers to board and alight.

I am looking forward to what is published in rail next week about plans to to modify the 15x series for them to work beyond 2020.


Also network rail were doing a study on electrification of the valley lines, I thought they said it would be released by the end of the summer, any idea when it is likely to be published?

 

[sprinterguy]

I agre and it enables the clas 150's to get new engines and an overhaul before being sent to work routes in west wales as well as the heart of wales line. Another option is perhaps for the 150's to completly replace the class 153's, especially since the class 150's can keep to time better since they can accelerate much faster and the door layout is better for passengers to board and alight.

I am looking forward to what is published in rail next week about plans to to modify the 15x series for them to work beyond 2020.

I have long thought that Valley Lines electrification would be a good idea to rid ATW of all of its' Pacers, release additional 150s for use elsewhere in the ATW franchise offering greater capacity than a single 153, and to allow FGW to gain ATWs' 153s as a bit of additional capacity.

Plus of course there's the direct benefits of Valley Lines having longer, probably newer, and cleaner (in terms of the local environment) trains and any potential benefits that the "sparks effect" might bring about for already high patronage of the Valley Lines services.

Electrifying the Valley Lines really is a no-brainer.

 

[emoaconr]

I agree... I don't know of many other urban rail commuter services that entirely rely on diesel on all services.

Wrexham-Bidston electrification would be hell of a lot more beneficial than its current existence, but that seems to have been forgotten about by NR and Merseytravel haven't mentioned it recently either. Even an extension to Birkenhead North would make a world of difference.

 

[anthony263]

I agree... I don't know of many other urban rail commuter services that entirely rely on diesel on all services.

Wrexham-Bidston electrification would be hell of a lot more beneficial than its current existence, but that seems to have been forgotten about by NR and Merseytravel haven't mentioned it recently either. Even an extension to Birkenhead North would make a world of difference.

I must admit I forgot about that line, although yes I agree that it should be electrified also saves ATW a 150 which could boost capacity on services along the north wales coast.

Also if the valley lines as well as the routes to Swansea/Maesteg & Ebbw vale are electrified, then as I suggested and FGW have proposed this there could be an hourly Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol TM service which also frees up at least 2 dmu's to be used by FGW elsewhere (Salisbury - Swindon perhaps?)

Also I personally think they should give northern new class 377's instead of teh 319's which could all go to FGW if they wire to Bassingstoke & Coventry/ Milton Keynes. Some of the class 319's could also be used to work the Swansea - Bristol TM service proposed above, although Baglan would need a platform extension to accomodate a 4 carriage train.

 

[tbtc]

I agree... I don't know of many other urban rail commuter services that entirely rely on diesel on all services

Neither can I - whilst there are frequent DMU services in Birmingham/ Manchester/ Glasgow etc, there are at least electrified lines there too.

The Valley Lines are pretty self contained (if you take a starting point of doing all services through Cardiff Queen Street, with more wired later if that is a success), plus EMUs may cope better with some of the gradients further up the valleys.