WAG Express

[tbtc]

Did we not have a Fishguard thread?

 

[anthony263]

Did we not have a Fishguard thread?

Yes we did i think, having a look now.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure that the long gap is going to be crucial to the success of the trial. I would prefer not to have such a gap, but at the same time I think that the traffic flow will be more long distance traffic than local. Yes, ther ewill eb some passnegers for Carmarthen, Swansea and other points in south west wales, but I think more will use the trains to get to Cardiff, Bristol, Birmingham, even Heathrow!

Have a friend in Carmarthen,when she comes North, always gets the bus to Aberyswyth for the train, saves hours & cost she tells me.

I wish this trial all the best,money better spent than some of the previous Ministers elite aspirations using public money.

 

[jones_bangor]

Have a friend in Carmarthen,when she comes North, always gets the bus to Aberyswyth for the train, saves hours & cost she tells me.

I wish this trial all the best,money better spent than some of the previous Ministers elite aspirations using public money.

It is painfully slow to get to Pembrokeshire....remote even from Cardiff.

I'm afraid to admit that the car wins everytime now for me, just don't have a whole day to get there by train.

 

[anthony263]

Have a friend in Carmarthen,when she comes North, always gets the bus to Aberyswyth for the train, saves hours & cost she tells me.

I wish this trial all the best,money better spent than some of the previous Ministers elite aspirations using public money.

Thats true, I do wish that the WAG had spent some money on a few more DMU's to boost the ATW fleet instead of the 2 loco hauled trains.

Some of the money and extra dmu's would have allowed for a better service to Fishguard & the Heart of wales line.

 

[merlodlliw]

Did we not have a Fishguard thread?

deleted


Bob

 

[merlodlliw]

Reference to the comment (1 August issue) about "enhanced" trolley service on the recently-introduced second Holyhead - Cardiff express. On 3 August I travelled from Chester to Cardiff on it and noticed that the trolley had a microwave on it. I asked the girl "what goes?" and apparently she had various rolls which could be heated, she listed them and one was a "breakfast roll", can't recall the others as I didn't actually want one, I was just curious. I assume if someone asks for one she has to wheel the trolley to the end of and plug the microwave in.

She came up and down the train a few times, I assume she was there from Holyhead but can't be sure. Plenty of room on it that morning, but I went from Chester to Shrewsbury on it on Tuesday of the previous week and it was very full, some standing. I don't know what could have been the difference between the two days. Only a two-car 175 was used, I would have thought that some re-arranging could be done so that they had a 3-car.

permission to publish this item given by http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

ATW informs us WAG only booked a two car 175 for May to Dec 2011 to run open access at over £625K, so I presume a three car would have hit the £1million taxpayer subsidy for the period.
(source, ATW Senior Manager responding to questions by Cllr Tony Sharpe of Flintshire CC at meeting of "Wales passenger Transport Forum" held in July.)

Bob

 

[merlodlliw]

This A.Ms press release may interest a few of you.



Press release /
Datganiad i’r wasg


www.markisherwood.com

October 5th 2011

ISHERWOOD: UNCERTAINTY OVER NORTH/SOUTH RAIL EXPRESS SERVICE

THE First Minister refused to provide any details on the future of North/South express rail services when questioned on the matter by Assembly Member Mark Isherwood this week.
Mr Isherwood raised the issue in the Assembly Chamber after concerns were raised with him that nothing has been revealed regarding the future of the Holyhead to Cardiff Welsh Government subsidised express service despite the new 12 month timetable commencing in just 11 weeks time.
When the new service was launched in May it was stated that it would cost £620,000 to run until December when a different locomotive would be used.
Speaking in the Chamber, Mr Isherwood said: “I have previously questioned you about the north Wales express service from Holyhead to Cardiff, and we understand that announcements will be made by the Minister when he announces his revised delivery plan for the National Transport Plan, hopefully this autumn. However, I am advised that already one locomotive is being repainted in the appropriate blue livery (Arriva Trains Wales) and that two more are expected to be repainted, yet the clock is ticking for the current timetable for when the current contract will end.
“Therefore, could we please have some indication of where we are going with this, not so much for ourselves as for the industry and passenger representatives?”
The First Minister failed to provide any details merely stressing that “ the national transport plan will contain our proposals for taking transport and the rail network forward in the future.”

Mr Isherwood added: “This is simply not good enough. Trains are already being repainted, yet the Welsh Government is holding back and hiding behind its rescheduled delivery plan.”

In May Mr Isherwood asked the First Minister why his Government is subsidising, to the tune of £100,000 a month, a second express service that leaves Holyhead just 15 minutes before the general service in the morning.

ENDS

North Wales AM Mark Isherwood, Shadow Minister for North Wales, Communities and Housing

................................................................................................................................................

Note, We now know the the National Transport Plan(Wales) for rail will be released in November, less than a month prior to the new Dec year long timetable commence. so a few in the trade should know what's happening, as the timetable .goes to press in four weeks. My guess the 67s should be ready for WAG2 via Wrexham as WAG have pumped £3.5 millions into this single train. As for Gerald will he be killed off, or given a new lease of life in a new form, the current Minister is not a fan of the little used Premier Service & has already announced over £2 million cuts in the revenue dept budget.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

In May Mr Isherwood asked the First Minister why his Government is subsidising, to the tune of £100,000 a month, a second express service that leaves Holyhead just 15 minutes before the general service in the morning.

I thought your 15 minute "soundbite" had been disproved previously....

I suppose the preparation of the 67s has come as somewhat of a disappointment to those who oppose this service for their various reasons.

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought your 15 minute "soundbite" had been disproved previously....

I suppose the preparation of the 67s has come as somewhat of a disappointment to those who oppose this service for their various reasons.

No far from it, the 67s will be far more sensible trains, if they have to run, then run them so all can enjoy, not those two or three who have the journey bankrolled in Premier, anyhow we know WAG2 is to be 67s and non Premier with the previous Minister giving £3.5 ,millions to ATW just for WAG2 alone.

As for Gerald, who knows, but his diesel guzzling 57 engine only has a few weeks left, if it is to be a 67 it wont be Premier Class anymore in my opinion.

BTW Jones Bangor, you said both WAGs will go via Wrexham from December,I asked how did you know this, so ill ask you again, how do you know both will run?

It would also be sensible to loose this silly 6 hour gap in Cardiff.

Bob

 

[anthony263]

No far from it, the 67s will be far more sensible trains, if they have to run, then run them so all can enjoy, not those two or three who have the journey bankrolled in Premier, anyhow we know WAG2 is to be 67s and non Premier with the previous Minister giving £3.5 ,millions to ATW just for WAG2 alone.

As for Gerald, who knows, but his diesel guzzling 57 engine only has a few weeks left, if it is to be a 67 it wont be Premier Class anymore in my opinion.

BTW Jones Bangor, you said both WAGs will go via Wrexham from December,I asked how did you know this, so ill ask you again, how do you know both will run?

It would also be sensible to loose this silly 6 hour gap in Cardiff.

Bob

i agree with making more use of the loco hauled sets instead of them spending at least 6 hours in cardiff. I wouldnt mind a trip behind 1 to Fishguard & back or even from Cardiff to Cheltenham.

 

[jones_bangor]

BTW Jones Bangor, you said both WAGs will go via Wrexham from December,I asked how did you know this, so ill ask you again, how do you know both will run?

It would also be sensible to loose this silly 6 hour gap in Cardiff.

Who knows, I'm only speculating here.....

I would suggest that the 7am and 8am southbound services should become LHCS, with one northbound 8am Cardiff departure becoming LHCS.

I would suggest that a 3.30pm'ish southbound from Holyhead, with a 4.15pm northbound as now, and the following 17:20ish service also LHCS.

The whole North-South service needs to be reviewed, there's much less demand outside the peaks, so complete movement to LHCS is not required.

 

[Bakers1970]

i agree with making more use of the loco hauled sets instead of them spending at least 6 hours in cardiff. I wouldnt mind a trip behind 1 to Fishguard & back or even from Cardiff to Cheltenham.

And if as is proposed above, where (as is the case now) do you fit in planned maintenance??.... And before I get shot down in flames...Holyhead depot does not have the capability to fully maintain such a rake....So put in the maintenance requirements formulae and you will find downtime is at a premium and cuts down your options,

 

[jones_bangor]

....So put in the maintenance requirements formulae and you will find downtime is at a premium and cuts down your options,

Exactly, why pay premium track access charges for a midday LHCS service with a heavy 67 loco carrying a sparse passenger load when a 158 / 175 / 150 will be more than adequate.

 

[merlodlliw]

Exactly, why pay premium track access charges for a midday LHCS service with a heavy 67 loco carrying a sparse passenger load when a 158 / 175 / 150 will be more than adequate.

God forbid a 150, pleased you agree about sparse loadings, to me the whole WAG Express scene has been a costly learning curve, thought out by politicians with little understanding of the Railways & perhaps a little naive when ATW & NR bigwigs gave answers, that should have been challenged, but were not.

The current Minister Carl Sargent I find not to be so easily kidded, and asks why and wants answers immediate, OK he is a bit of a bully, but that's probably what is wanted, I am aware the comfort zones at ATW/NR & Wag Rail Division have disappeared, God help ATW if the £3.5 million Wag2 67 is not ready for Dec.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

God forbid a 150, pleased you agree about sparse loadings

I agree with you only about sparse loadings outside peak services - but that's most train services for you. I was making the point that there's little justification in sending out a high track access train (as a 67, DVT and 4 x coaches will be) on a midday train up to Cheltenham or a saunter to Carmarthen when the demand will be small.

 

[Greenback]

Surely the greatest demand is between Cardiff and Manchester? Should the LCHS be on that route?

 

[anthony263]

Surely the greatest demand is between Cardiff and Manchester? Should the LCHS be on that route?

I and I think a lot of others would have some agreement with you there greenback, especially since the south wales -Manchester services are always full whatever time of day particulary between Swansea & Manchester.

I think perhaps some relief could happen between Swansea & Cardiff if the swanline service was hourly and if trhere was a more frequent service via the heart of wales line which could encourage passengers traveling from Swanea or Llanelli to Shrewsbury etc to travel on that service.

I personally think maybe it would be a better idea to scrap the Cardiff- Holyhead loco hauled express services and use the stock to boost capacity on services to manchester freing up some of the 2 carriage class 175's or 158's which are used on the route.

 

[Greenback]

I've been on 2 car 175's on their way to Manchester twice in the past week, but only as far as Cardiff. The 1031 departure from Llanelli was almost full on both days with people standing in the vestibules - and this is on an off peak train on the quieter section of the route! It wasn't even Friday or a weekend!

So, yes, I do think that more capacity is needed and the LHCS option should be considered!

 

[tbtc]

I personally think maybe it would be a better idea to scrap the Cardiff- Holyhead loco hauled express services and use the stock to boost capacity on services to manchester freing up some of the 2 carriage class 175's or 158's which are used on the route.

I agree (and with Greenback) - the Manchester - Stockport - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Hereford - Cymbran - Newport - Cardiff - Bridgend - Port Talbot - Neath - Swansea section of that service is by far the busiest Wales & Borders service I've used/seen.

If you are going to run four coach services anywhere on the franchise then that'd be the obvious place to do it.

If anyone think that four coach trains are better on the Holyhead - Cardiff services, whilst the Manchester - Cardiff corridor gets two coach units then I despair!

 

[jones_bangor]

If anyone think that four coach trains are better on the Holyhead - Cardiff services, whilst the Manchester - Cardiff corridor gets two coach units then I despair!

Bear in mind that Cardiff - Holyhead's do serve part of that route, nevertheless, a two car 175 isn't adequate for Cardiff - Manchester services.

Who knows - there's quite a few 67s about, some DVT and plenty of Chiltern slaqm-door Mk3's that could be cascaded once the plug-door stock come on line.....

 

[anthony263]

Either that or someone comes along with adeep pocket to purchase the irish mk3's, complety re-wire them as well as re-guaging the bogies which I read is possible.

Sometimes i think even a 3 carriage 175 isnt enough on the south wales - Manchester route. Pity ATW couldnt get a lot more 158's for the cambrian as well as running in pairs on the south wales - Manchester service allowing the 3 carriage 175's work other ATW services.

 

[sprinterguy]

Who knows - there's quite a few 67s about, some DVT and plenty of Chiltern slaqm-door Mk3's that could be cascaded once the plug-door stock come on line.....

Arriva Trains Wales already own, rather than lease, enough mark 2s to make up a few four coach rakes. It bemuses me why ATW are hanging on to them if they have no intentions of making use of them (barring those included in the WAG rake). They don't even get wheeled out for big sporting events like the rugby in Cardiff to my knowledge. Owning them outright would surely mean a reduced cost of running loco hauled services when compared to leasing the carriages from a ROSCO.

Cardiff to Manchester certainly seems to me the corridor best suited to loco hauled operation where ATW would gain the greatest return on the additional cost of operating the consists as demand is high enough to warrant four coach sets throughout the most part of the day. You'd definitely need some DVTs/DBSOs to go with them though, as there's no scope for run round opportunities at the Manchester end.

But the WAG don't even see fit to provide funding for ATW to see fit for the WAG Express rake to perform a meaningful fill-in turn in the middle of the day, so I don't hold out much hope for the appearance of regular loco-hauled services in Wales...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sometimes i think even a 3 carriage 175 isnt enough on the south wales - Manchester route. Pity ATW couldnt get a lot more 158's for the cambrian as well as running in pairs on the south wales - Manchester service allowing the 3 carriage 175's work other ATW services.

I think that the soonest you could expect to see developments on that front would be when the Scottish Central Belt electrification programme is completed, when we will have to see if Scotrail feel charitable enough to throw a bone or two from its' plate in the direction of Wales and England. That should still be within the current "no growth" ATW franchise though, so we will have to hope that in a couple of years time the DfT will have seen sense and realised that a "no growth" franchise is unsustainable in a time of rapid passenger growth.

 

[tbtc]

Bear in mind that Cardiff - Holyhead's do serve part of that route, nevertheless, a two car 175 isn't adequate for Cardiff - Manchester services

If the 67s are used on the WAG Express via Wrexham then they'll only serve one station north of Abergavenny that the busy Manchester trains serve (Shrewsbury), so its not going to be of much help to those stuck on two coach 175s.

If Manchester - Cardiff is a seven hour round trip then a loco hauled set could do two return journeys a day, which would be a help.

 

[merlodlliw]

The previous WAG Minister for rail had no intention of looking outside Wales,other than Crewe which is the only station between Holyhead & Cardiff not managed by WAG/ATW.

I fully agree there is demand for a loco hauled service Cardiff to Manchester,a few years ago pre 158s they were all loco hauled with Western Region stock. The current Minister is broader minded, but has been left with a legacy of £3.5millions spent already for Wag2 to run as a 67,this money can not be diverted into a Manchester service, as ATW have banked it already for Holyhead Cardiff open access services only, plus I am not aware of any ATW staff based in Manchester.

I also agree with the unused stock of carriages in Cardiff, the reason for ATWs CEO Mr Bunker getting the sack, why not use them

In the real world any Company in a no growth situation would go bust, but TOCs are not in the real world.

Lets see what November brings, I don't think its going to be a Premier Month, more a buffet month.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I fully agree there is demand for a loco hauled service Cardiff to Manchester,a few years ago pre 158s they were all loco hauled with Western Region stock. The current Minister is broader minded, but has been left with a legacy of £3.5millions spent already for Wag2 to run as a 67,this money can not be diverted into a Manchester service, as ATW have banked it already for Holyhead Cardiff open access services only, plus I am not aware of any ATW staff based in Manchester.

Lets see what November brings, I don't think its going to be a Premier Month, more a buffet month.

Who knows what November will bring - if first class is retained, then some form of rationalisation - which I think is what you're suggesting - is probably on the cards. Reduced services - more pringles and pre-packed sandwiches, instead of welsh mountain lamb and claret - will reduce prices and increase utilization.

The big advantage of 67s / DVT push-pull stock is that they effectively become units, so need for run-rounds etc, which should make them more flexible. The downside is that putting them on Manchester services will cost ATW more money in track access charges.....but I'd welcome any 3hr+ ATW services moving to Mark 2 or 3 coaching stock.

 

[Greenback]

Sometimes i think even a 3 carriage 175 isnt enough on the south wales - Manchester route. Pity ATW couldnt get a lot more 158's for the cambrian as well as running in pairs on the south wales - Manchester service allowing the 3 carriage 175's work other ATW services.

Apart from this week and the 2 car 175's, I've been on quiote a few 3 car units that have been full up as well. I;d rather see a four coach train with 20 spare seats than people being put off rail travel by having to stand for all or part of the journey.

If the 67s are used on the WAG Express via Wrexham then they'll only serve one station north of Abergavenny that the busy Manchester trains serve (Shrewsbury), so its not going to be of much help to those stuck on two coach 175s.

If Manchester - Cardiff is a seven hour round trip then a loco hauled set could do two return journeys a day, which would be a help.

It's better than nothing, though presumable thry'd be out from Cardiff in the morning.

One drawback is that the extension of the services to West Wales would be lost. This means that there would be long turn around times at Cardiff under the present timetable.

Who knows what November will bring - if first class is retained, then some form of rationalisation - which I think is what you're suggesting - is probably on the cards. Reduced services - more pringles and pre-packed sandwiches, instead of welsh mountain lamb and claret - will reduce prices and increase utilization.

The big advantage of 67s / DVT push-pull stock is that they effectively become units, so need for run-rounds etc, which should make them more flexible. The downside is that putting them on Manchester services will cost ATW more money in track access charges.....but I'd welcome any 3hr+ ATW services moving to Mark 2 or 3 coaching stock.

ATW might gain more revenue from the LHCS as a result of enhtusiasts wanting to travel on the services. I don't know how that might compare against the extra costs, though. ATW certainly don't like spending money!

I agree that some rationalisation might be on the cards!

 

[sprinterguy]

The big advantage of 67s / DVT push-pull stock is that they effectively become units, so need for run-rounds etc, which should make them more flexible. The downside is that putting them on Manchester services will cost ATW more money in track access charges.....but I'd welcome any 3hr+ ATW services moving to Mark 2 or 3 coaching stock.

There's no getting around the fact that if a TOC wishes to extend train services to meet a growing demand, then they will have to bite the bullet and stump up for extra track access charges. Granted that the charges associated with a loco + 4 coaches will be much higher than for adding an additional 158 onto a currently two car service, but the loco hauled option is the only achievable option at the moment and is likely to be the case for the next couple of years at least.

This is not intended as a criticism of your well thought out post, but of the propensity of some TOCs to dodge any additional costs that would come with expanding what is a growing business. Not that the blame can be levelled solely at the train operating companies of course, when the franchises are micro-managed by the DfT who say exactly what the operator can and cannot do.

 

[jones_bangor]

This is not intended as a criticism of your well thought out post, but of the propensity of some TOCs to dodge any additional costs that would come with expanding what is a growing business. Not that the blame can be levelled solely at the train operating companies of course, when the franchises are micro-managed by the DfT who say exactly what the operator can and cannot do.

I agree that ATW would have to be pushed to do this - I suspect the DfT wouldn't interfere if this were a Welsh Government decision. But it would all come down to a question of cash.

The big win in pulling 158 / 175 units off the longer routes is the cascade downwards of stock, so that the Cambrian in particular could benefit.

Realistically I think you're probably looking at assembling 5 or 6 push pull sets which would make a huge difference in relieving pressure.

It's also worth pointing out that Manchester - Llandudno, Birmingham - Shrewsbury services are also "jam-packed" at peak times, with many people standing, and I can't help thinking there's a first class market on this route also.

 

[anthony263]

I agree that ATW would have to be pushed to do this - I suspect the DfT wouldn't interfere if this were a Welsh Government decision. But it would all come down to a question of cash.

The big win in pulling 158 / 175 units off the longer routes is the cascade downwards of stock, so that the Cambrian in particular could benefit.

Realistically I think you're probably looking at assembling 5 or 6 push pull sets which would make a huge difference in relieving pressure.

It's also worth pointing out that Manchester - Llandudno, Birmingham - Shrewsbury services are also "jam-packed" at peak times, with many people standing, and I can't help thinking there's a first class market on this route also.

Pity the service attaches to/from the cambrian trains at Shrewsbury otherwise i would say put loco hauled trains on some of the busier services.