WAG Express

[merlodlliw]

North Wales in particular has strong historical links with Liverpool. The Welsh accent has had an influence on the Scouse accent . There used to be Welsh Chapels in Liverpool and in the 1900's there was even an Eistedford( sorry about spelling) in Liverpool. Now I suspect the links are not as strong now but transport ( especially rail)links have been poor for a long time. The demise of Crosville has also seen less direct links.

Very true, even now the most read daily newspaper in North Wales is the Welsh Edition of the Liverpool Daily Post.

No one seems to have come back on another of my A.Ms facts that the advance fare on WAG2 is 50% cheaper than the fare on the other Bi Hourly Cardiff services leaving around the same time. A strange pricing for a so called Premier express service. To bump up figures no doubt.


Bob

 

[Greenback]

This thread has got so off topic now. It's supposed to be about the WAG Express but now we find a big discussion about whether trains should run to Liverpool or Manchester.

The key point is that this is a Welsh TOC funded by a Welsh government. The predominant aim is to stimulate travel and trade within Wales!

Whilst there is undoubtedly a demand from North West Wales to Liverpool and Manchester, it is seasonal in the reverse direction. Certainly in the September-May period the key result of any direct services would be to take people and revenue OUT of Wales.

Logically there would be demand for a service, but logic doesn't come into this, and I would have thought that was obvious. Politics does.

All that said, there is a Llandudno to Manchester service and a Cardiff to Manchester service!

I take your point that the directs ervices that run today are franchise requirements whereas WAG is not. And that WAG must call at stations in England due to the lack of any wholly internal railway link between the north and the south,

But I disagree that direct services that run to places outside Wales cannot be good for the Welsh economy. The fact is that if businesses are to prosper they do need direct links to the nearest major commercial or financial centres. For North Wales, that means Manchester!

 

[jones_bangor]

No one seems to have come back on another of my A.Ms facts that the advance fare on WAG2 is 50% cheaper than the fare on the other Bi Hourly Cardiff services leaving around the same time. A strange pricing for a so called Premier express service. To bump up figures no doubt.

Come on - that is ridiculous!

 

[tbtc]

The key point is that this is a Welsh TOC funded by a Welsh government. The predominant aim is to stimulate travel and trade within Wales!

First of all its the Wales & Borders franchise (something a few people chose to forget).

Secondly, I'd suggest that the aim should be to stimulate travel and trade around that whole area (not wholly within parochial boundaries). Can you imagine how daft it'd be if Glossop had no direct service to Manchester, yet had a service to Derby? Political boundaries are nothing to do with demand (more people in Dumfries travel to Carlisle than to Edinburgh/ Glasgow).

Thirdly, as has been pointed out, railways aren't self contained within Wales. Hence needing to travel via English stations like Chester and Shrewsbury (where a number of Welsh people work/ shop/ visit - regardless of borders).

Logically there would be demand for a service, but logic doesn't come into this, and I would have thought that was obvious. Politics does

Yup. Logic certainly gets overwritten by politics when you have trains running non-stop through Hereford yet finds the time to stop at Flint...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The key point is that this is a Welsh TOC funded by a Welsh government. The predominant aim is to stimulate travel and trade within Wales!

No it isn't. The franchise is Wales & BORDERS and it is not in WAG's gift to determine services in England. It's a DfT franchise with day to day management and some minor tweaking by WAG, but with proper consideration of the needs of the many Marches users.

East-west links are of far greater importance than north-south, as any casual observer of the A55 and M4, and parallel railways, will know.

North Wales is in the north-west economy, not the (south) Welsh economy.

 

[merlodlliw]

Come on - that is ridiculous!

It is fact, check the fares on Nat Express. Why are the advance fares on WAG2 being kept artificially low against the bi hourly franchise run fares, there must be a reason.

Normal advance single fare Holyhead to Cardiff using the 0805 £34
The 0855 £74. yet the 0751 Wag Ex costs a mere £17.

Normal advance single fare Wrexham to Cardiff using the 0834 £24,
The 1036 £28. WAG Ex £12.

When you check the fares on Nat Rails website & see the fares above are correct,then tell me that is ridiculous!


Bob

 

[Greenback]

It may be supply and demand, in that fewer people want to travel on the WAG (despite it's Premier status) as the times are more suited for AM's!

 

[merlodlliw]

It may be supply and demand, in that fewer people want to travel on the WAG (despite it's Premier status) as the times are more suited for AM's!

Indeed, another interesting factor comes to mind,As Sunday is one of the busiest days of the week for long distance travel, why only two direct trains each way between Holyhead & Cardiff if the route is so much in demand.

More trains run between Holyhead & Manchester direct on Sundays.

 

[tbtc]

Indeed, another interesting factor comes to mind,As Sunday is one of the busiest days of the week for long distance travel, why only two direct trains each way between Holyhead & Cardiff if the route is so much in demand.

More trains run between Holyhead & Manchester direct on Sundays.

Thats a good point, Sundays tend to be crammed on routes like XC, I'd expect the same is true on long distance routes elsewhere too.

Then again, the WAG don't "sit" on a Sunday. Coincidence?

 

[jones_bangor]

Indeed, another interesting factor comes to mind,As Sunday is one of the busiest days of the week for long distance travel, why only two direct trains each way between Holyhead & Cardiff if the route is so much in demand.

More trains run between Holyhead & Manchester direct on Sundays.

Well put fairly simply, most people are at home. Gerald is a service to transport people from North Wales to the administrative centre (Cardiff) as quickly, and in relative comfort, as possible.

Just like Virgin services do the same to the UK capital.

(RE: Not stopping at Hereford - see above, although Gerald 2 does call anyway?)

ATW do use the set for RugEx specials when they anticipate extra demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is fact, check the fares on Nat Express. Why are the advance fares on WAG2 being kept artificially low against the bi hourly franchise run fares, there must be a reason.

Normal advance single fare Holyhead to Cardiff using the 0805 £34
The 0855 £74. yet the 0751 Wag Ex costs a mere £17.

Normal advance single fare Wrexham to Cardiff using the 0834 £24,
The 1036 £28. WAG Ex £12.

It's your opposition to cheap fares that is ridiculous.

You'll be saying next that fares are being raised on other services to drive people on to the Gerald!!

 

[merlodlliw]

It's your opposition to cheap fares that is ridiculous.

You'll be saying next that fares are being raised on other services to drive people on to the Gerald!![/QUOTE]
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have no opposition to cheap fares, why not allow other trains to have cheap fares.Why are the fares on WAG2 half price advance.

Sunday is one of VTs busiest days to/from London.Also VT don't run Govt funded open access services to London,this only applies in Wales

And yes the stock,less Premier Class Carriage, used to convey supporters on a Saturday to Cardiff,according to those who used the last service
was six on board at Llandudno Junction (see North Wales Rail website newsboard)

Bob

 

[tbtc]

You'll be saying next that fares are being raised on other services to drive people on to the Gerald!!

You'd only put the cheapest tickets on the emptiest services (hence most "bargain" advance tickets in the UK being off peak/ mid week, and not Friday rush hour).

The fact that the cheapest tickets are on the WAG Express suggests little "real" demand, if they are half the price of other trains around that time.

 

[jones_bangor]

The fact that the cheapest tickets are on the WAG Express suggests little "real" demand, if they are half the price of other trains around that time.

In think it's a bit of a supermarket tactic - draw the punters in with cheap prices.

The real test will be whether those same fares are in place in 6 or 12 months.....

 

[tbtc]

In think it's a bit of a supermarket tactic - draw the punters in with cheap prices.

The real test will be whether those same fares are in place in 6 or 12 months.....

If there's the "real" demand out there for this service (on top of the bi-hourly direct trains from Holyhead to Cardiff) then why give tickets away?

Most new train services don't need those kind of giveaways in the first year. The fact that the WAG Express has been running since 2008 (?) and still can't find enough people willing to pay full fare from North Wales to South Wales (e.g. those not claiming expenses from the WAG) suggests pretty limited demand.

I best any service from North Wales to Liverpool wouldn't need three years of giveaway fares...

 

[jones_bangor]

I best any service from North Wales to Liverpool wouldn't need three years of giveaway fares...

The service that Merlodlliw referes to is the new service, which has only been running for a few days....NOT 3 years.

I've done some checking on the Nat Rail website, and I'm afraid - as usual - his selective use of statistics has been shown up again.

Of course, two can play that game....

Bangor - Cardiff (cheapest)
Wed 29 Jun
06:02 (Gerald) £17.00
07:07 (Normal) £17.00
08:21 (Gerald) £69.20 (supposedly rock bottom....!)
09:02 (Normal) £23.00

 

[Greenback]

As I said earlier, fares will vary according to demand. I wonder what the Gerald fares are like over a period of say six weeks?

 

[merlodlliw]

The service that Merlodlliw referes to is the new service, which has only been running for a few days....NOT 3 years.

I've done some checking on the Nat Rail website, and I'm afraid - as usual - his selective use of statistics has been shown up again.

Of course, two can play that game....

Bangor - Cardiff (cheapest)
Wed 29 Jun
06:02 (Gerald) £17.00
07:07 (Normal) £17.00
08:21 (Gerald) £69.20 (supposedly rock bottom....!)
09:02 (Normal) £23.00

The fares I quoted were in use last week from Holyhead & Wrexham,
and confirmed by Mark Isherwoods researcher. Then announced in the Assembly ,

Pray tell me what other as you say statistics have been shown up again, as usual.

Here is the advance fare for Wag Express 07:51 Holyhead [HHD] Wed 1st June and the 0805 to Cardiff copied from Nat Rail website

07:51 Holyhead [HHD]
Cardiff Central [CDF]
12:08 4h 17m 0 Details
£23.00 (Cheapest fare) Advance
08:05 Holyhead [HHD]
Cardiff Central [CDF]
13:22 5h 17m 0 Details
£34.00 Advance

 

[Bakers1970]

yes there are sockets fitted in the six seat self contained section built into the Premier Class.The Daily Post reporter(Eryl Crump) travelled on the first day & took photos of this section featured on North Wales Rail website, one picture showed The Speaker of WAG Ellis Thomas A.M & Ieuan Wyn Jones seated in this private section having breakfast, the story also described how this separate section in Premier class can be booked for small conference meetings on the move, described as containing A/V & power points.


Bob

[/QUOTE]

Apologies Merlodlliw , As a employed member of our Welsh TOC , I read all relevant posts with interest. I must ask the question... Have you ever used or travelled on this service? You raise some very contentious opinions mostly very scathing re -WAG 1 and more recently WAG 2.Some I have to admit have some relevance,

However on this point I have to correct you.... RFM 10249 indeed has a sectioned off area ..as per previous Virgin days..However where you got 6 sockets from is definatley incorrect as there is none, Meanwhile, RFM 10259 has no sectioned off area at all and HAS a 240v socket at each seat.....This is the regular RFM is service with 10249 acting as a serviceable spare.

Now come WAG 2 with Mark 3's I would very much assume that it will be a carbon copy.!!

I am sure if you have indeed ever travelled on this Service,you would reassess your somewhat incorrect and negative opinions.

 

[1V53]

Apologies Merlodlliw , As a employed member of our Welsh TOC , I read all relevant posts with interest. I must ask the question... Have you ever used or travelled on this service? You raise some very contentious opinions mostly very scathing re -WAG 1 and more recently WAG 2.Some I have to admit have some relevance,

However on this point I have to correct you.... RFM 10249 indeed has a sectioned off area ..as per previous Virgin days..However where you got 6 sockets from is definatley incorrect as there is none, Meanwhile, RFM 10259 has no sectioned off area at all and HAS a 240v socket at each seat.....This is the regular RFM is service with 10249 acting as a serviceable spare.

Now come WAG 2 with Mark 3's I would very much assume that it will be a carbon copy.!!

I am sure if you have indeed ever travelled on this Service,you would reassess your somewhat incorrect and negative opinions.

I somehow doubt it

 

[jones_bangor]

The fares I quoted were in use last week from Holyhead & Wrexham,and confirmed by Mark Isherwoods researcher. Then announced in the Assembly ,

Pray tell me what other as you say statistics have been shown up again, as usual.

I think I will start praying with that revelation - what else is there to do if that is what politicians use as "facts" to justify their assertions!??!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think I will start praying with that revelation - what else is there to do if that is what politicians use as "facts" to justify their assertions!??!

Interestingly the McNulty review is critical of off peak capacity hoggers that don't generate much revenue but rack up operational costs. Neither of the southbound WAG Expresses can be described as meeting peak demand south of Chester whilst the primary function of the northbound ones appears to be to carry commuters as far as Abergavenny.

 

[merlodlliw]

I am a frequent visitor to Cardiff Bay WCVA & WAG by rail



I have travelled on WAG1. But never in Premier Class, unlike Politicians I refuse to spend mine or others money on this elite area. I speak as I find.

I said WAG 1 had 6 seats in a closed off section with equipment for meetings as discussed on North Wales Rail news pages when Wag 1 first started
this included pictures of this closed off area.ATW in their handouts also boasted of this area.

I am fully entitled to comment on these open access trains,bankrolled by WAG, in the real world of open access the Company would fund the trains
not taxpayers. If the taxpayer did not bankroll these open access services at the cost of £millions of WAG funding, so be it, but that is not the case.

I have yet to see one person do a report or put up pictures on RF or North Wales Rail newspages of WAG2, its loadings or even any interest, the only press release was from ATW
two days in advance.

I still find it strange that WAG2 leaves Holyhead just 15 minutes prior to the normal Cardiff service train, it must be that WAG don't think a South/North Premier morning service is required, but of course as A.Ms work Tuesday to Thursday in Cardiff, there would not be a need.

 

[Bakers1970]

I am a frequent visitor to Cardiff Bay WCVA & WAG by rail



I have travelled on WAG1. But never in Premier Class, unlike Politicians I refuse to spend mine or others money on this elite area. I speak as I find.

I said WAG 1 had 6 seats in a closed off section with equipment for meetings as discussed on North Wales Rail news pages when Wag 1 first started
this included pictures of this closed off area.ATW in their handouts also boasted of this area.



Look, I am not disputing your opinions to which you are quite rightly entitled to and that I accept.

However, I must reiterate that on WAG 1 ...ONLY RFM 10249 has this "sectioned" off area that can be used for a more secluded meeting of sorts..But, It Does not have any equipment whatsoever! Believe me this is fact .

Additionally RFM 10259 had this sectioned off area removed as part of the refurb and HAS a 240v socket at each seat.

To conclude, while each and every member has a right to voice their personal opinions... I do think that your opinions do have a political sting in them which does come across as very negative and does create some resentment.

 

[merlodlliw]

I am a frequent visitor to Cardiff Bay WCVA & WAG by rail



I have travelled on WAG1. But never in Premier Class, unlike Politicians I refuse to spend mine or others money on this elite area. I speak as I find.

I said WAG 1 had 6 seats in a closed off section with equipment for meetings as discussed on North Wales Rail news pages when Wag 1 first started
this included pictures of this closed off area.ATW in their handouts also boasted of this area.



Look, I am not disputing your opinions to which you are quite rightly entitled to and that I accept.

However, I must reiterate that on WAG 1 ...ONLY RFM 10249 has this "sectioned" off area that can be used for a more secluded meeting of sorts..But, It Does not have any equipment whatsoever! Believe me this is fact .

Additionally RFM 10259 had this sectioned off area removed as part of the refurb and HAS a 240v socket at each seat.

To conclude, while each and every member has a right to voice their personal opinions... I do think that your opinions do have a political sting in them which does come across as very negative and does create some resentment.

Thank you for the information on the sets, it is indeed interesting to know of the differences between them.

Of course my opinions do have somewhat a political sting, as these open access services are politically bankrolled by WAG using taxpayers money,
I am not against extra services where required, but fail to understand the need of an extra "what will be Premier Class service South "arriving in Cardiff at 1230. The current WAG bankrolling of a 175 open access DMU costing £25K for 5 days,hired in from the Wales & Borders (ATW) stock & has is reported by others, taken off another service means more old DMUs will have to be used on long distance services, as ATW seem to have no spares. I don't blame ATW taking the money for services they would never dream of running as open access Premier Services themselves.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I have yet to see one person do a report or put up pictures on RF or North Wales Rail newspages of WAG2, its loadings or even any interest, the only press release was from ATW two days in advance.

Well it just is another 175, wait until it's LHCS.....!

I still find it strange that WAG2 leaves Holyhead just 15 minutes prior to the normal Cardiff service train, it must be that WAG don't think a South/North Premier morning service is required, but of course as A.Ms work Tuesday to Thursday in Cardiff, there would not be a need.

Not that old chestnut again.....ONE goes FAST, the OTHER goes SLOW.....EXPRESS trains go FAST!!!

 

[tbtc]

I must reiterate that on WAG 1 ...ONLY RFM 10249 has this "sectioned" off area that can be used for a more secluded meeting of sorts

Out of interest, is this "sectioned off" area available to anyone who's paid for a First Class ticket? Or do you have to book in advance? How does it work?

 

[Bakers1970]

Out of interest, is this "sectioned off" area available to anyone who's paid for a First Class ticket? Or do you have to book in advance? How does it work?

To be honest.. "sectioned off" is not strictly correct, in that it is just the area of 4 x 2 seating directly next to the Kitchen entrance...This is how the coach was inherited from previous TOC's.
It is indeed open to any fare paying 1st class passenger , and is used.

As I have stated...RFM 10259 has had this area removed as part of the refurb.

Can't comment on earlier statements that this "sectioned off" area can be pre-booked for meetings......

 

[tbtc]

To be honest.. "sectioned off" is not strictly correct, in that it is just the area of 4 x 2 seating directly next to the Kitchen entrance...This is how the coach was inherited from previous TOC's.
It is indeed open to any fare paying 1st class passenger , and is used.

As I have stated...RFM 10259 has had this area removed as part of the refurb.

Can't comment on earlier statements that this "sectioned off" area can be pre-booked for meetings......

Cheers for answering

 

[merlodlliw]

Well it just is another 175, wait until it's LHCS.....!

indeed its a 175,but open access 6 months at over £600K of taxpayers money,LHCS open access at £3.5Millions


Not that old chestnut again.....ONE goes FAST, the OTHER goes SLOW.....EXPRESS trains go FAST!!!

This train is like a the dance,slow slow,quick quick,slow. Chester/Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen/Shrewsbury, its only quick between
Salop & Newport.

First it was down as Holyhead/Bangor/Junction/Chester/Crewe/Shrewsbury/Newport. (ATW to ORR pre Dec 2010)

Now its plus Colwyn/Rhyl/Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen.

Im betting Hereford from Dec, which is a WAG/ATW station.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out of interest, is this "sectioned off" area available to anyone who's paid for a First Class ticket? Or do you have to book in advance? How does it work?

The blurb put out when it started said, the section could be prebooked.

 

[jones_bangor]

This train is like a the dance,slow slow,quick quick,slow. Chester/Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen/Shrewsbury, its only quick between
Salop & Newport.

First it was down as Holyhead/Bangor/Junction/Chester/Crewe/Shrewsbury/Newport.

Now its plus Colwyn/Rhyl/Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen.

Im betting Hereford from Dec, which is a WAG/ATW station.

Hereford would be a worthwhile stop (especially as the train crawls through anyway).

N.B. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the equivalent South - North is set up if the 67 LHCS model works out.