WAG Express

[1V53]

As a matter of fact ATW were aware of WAG2 contract last year when they put in a bid to the ORR, and since January had put in another bid via Wrexham.

ATW did indeed finally sign in the early part of the year,which gave them ample time to contact leasing Companies for a set of whatever to replace the 175 set on the WAG for six months. I am sure the £25K a week taxpayers subsidy paid by WAG for the 175 was not just for diesel & staff.

Bob

The final signing off of the finances wasn't done until just under two months ago as I stated previously. It's one thing having had a serious discussion and planning but it's quite another having the money in the bank.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Unless WAG/Dft and ATW are prepared to accept slower services then loco hauled won't work. They can't keep the times over the marches. It would also be a sodding big timetable re-write, let alone dealing with Man Picc.

If they can't keep the times over the marches, then since the WAG expresses are ommiting reletivly few stops wouldn't they not be any faster than the DMUs that do stop? The problem's I've heard on here about LHCS and the Marches relate to a 67's higher axle weight maybe preventing use of the full linespeed, but I've heard nothing relating to the current 57s. How much slower are Chiltern's LHCS services than their DMUs where? And how much slower where the top & tail 57 and 67 workings on FGW's Cardiff - Taunton services than the DMUs that work it now?

 

[merlodlliw]

The final signing off of the finances wasn't done until just under two months ago as I stated previously. It's one thing having had a serious discussion and planning but it's quite another having the money in the bank.

Public announcement from WAG March 9th, final signings of contracts previous week. Almost three months to hire in a DMU for six months after receipt of funds
it could have been done if ATW wanted to in my opinion as ATW knew they had
the deal months sooner.


Bob

 

[anthony263]

If they can't keep the times over the marches, then since the WAG expresses are ommiting reletivly few stops wouldn't they not be any faster than the DMUs that do stop? The problem's I've heard on here about LHCS and the Marches relate to a 67's higher axle weight maybe preventing use of the full linespeed, but I've heard nothing relating to the current 57s. How much slower are Chiltern's LHCS services than their DMUs where? And how much slower where the top & tail 57 and 67 workings on FGW's Cardiff - Taunton services than the DMUs that work it now?

I didnt notice any difference to the FGW loco hauled trains compared with the services which were operated by DMU's in fact the loco hauled train always seemed to be able to do the journey between Patchway & Severn tunnel jct quicker than a dmu

 

[1V53]

Public announcement from WAG March 9th, final signings of contracts previous week. Almost three months to hire in a DMU for six months after receipt of funds
it could have been done if ATW wanted to in my opinion as ATW knew they had
the deal months sooner.


Bob

Two months, not three.

I ask again, where are these mythical sidings with spare 175's or 158's available for hire?

 

[anthony263]

Two months, not three.

I ask again, where are these mythical sidings with spare 175's or 158's available for hire?

If ATW have class 158's available to hire then FGW would like a few lol

 

[The Planner]

The problem's I've heard on here about LHCS and the Marches relate to a 67's higher axle weight maybe preventing use of the full linespeed, but I've heard nothing relating to the current 57s.

The current 57s are pegged back for two reasons, first the SP diff on the marches and also due to the rule book restrictions on low numbers of mkII coaches in the formation.

How much slower are Chiltern's LHCS services than their DMUs where? And how much slower where the top & tail 57 and 67 workings on FGW's Cardiff - Taunton services than the DMUs that work it now?

Chiltern have jumped through hoops to get the 67s HST rated between Tyseley and Warwick, they dont have any other issues until Princes Risborough where they run ever so slightly slower than linespeed, 70 vs 75 I think. Therefore they keep to time with 168s.

As for FGW, again, they dont have any SP diffs that I know of. They were also timed in 150 paths so dont have the rule book issues as they are 75 max.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Two months, not three.

I ask again, where are these mythical sidings with spare 175's or 158's available for hire?

Only slack I've heard of in the nationwide fleets of 175s and 158s was SWT 158s, with them sparing one or more units for EMT and having one available when they took the last 2 3-CIGs out of service. I think that's slack's been used up now though, so the only thing I know of that ATW could have hired in would have been LHCS.

I didnt notice any difference to the FGW loco hauled trains compared with the services which were operated by DMU's in fact the loco hauled train always seemed to be able to do the journey between Patchway & Severn tunnel jct quicker than a dmu

I didn't expect them to be faster, about the same I would have thought. Anyway, if a loco can haul 4 mark2s and a dead loco on the rear faster than a class 158 or 150 can run the service then I can't see a single, powered-up loco with 4 mark 2s being slower than a DMU unless there are stations really close together or the axle weight (or somthing else) causes the train to have a lower speed limit.

 

[Gareth Marston]

My point with ATW is that they prove that longer franchises do not miraculous unleash investment which is a theme that has been an oft promoted solution to the industry problems.

 

[1V53]

Only slack I've heard of in the nationwide fleets of 175s and 158s was SWT 158s, with them sparing one or more units for EMT and having one available when they took the last 2 3-CIGs out of service. I think that's slack's been used up now though, so the only thing I know of that ATW could have hired in would have been LHCS.



I didn't expect them to be faster, about the same I would have thought. Anyway, if a loco can haul 4 mark2s and a dead loco on the rear faster than a class 158 or 150 can run the service then I can't see a single, powered-up loco with 4 mark 2s being slower than a DMU unless there are stations really close together or the axle weight (or somthing else) causes the train to have a lower speed limit.

Yes they could only have done LHCS and can't because of the requirement to run via Wrexham. I understand it was LHCS via Crewe as WAG1, or 175 (until later in the year when over 50 guards and unknown number of drivers could be trained on the traction) and WAG said to go for the current operation.

 

[1V53]

My point with ATW is that they prove that longer franchises do not miraculous unleash investment which is a theme that has been an oft promoted solution to the industry problems.

The longer franchises don't necessarily mean more investment by themselves, you still need the mechanisms in place to provide the incentives to invest.

 

[merlodlliw]

If ATW have class 158's available to hire then FGW would like a few lol

ATW dont have any spare stock, I was talking of short term hire from from a leasing Company, or another toc for a 158 or similar.
ATW loaned a 150 set to Northern a few weeks ago, so it can be done.


Bob

 

[1V53]

ATW dont have any spare stock, I was talking of short term hire from from a leasing Company, or another toc for a 158 or similar.
ATW loaned a 150 set to Northern a few weeks ago, so it can be done.


Bob

Short term emergency loans dictated by higher powers can be done. Long term 'nice to do' hires for services over and above the franchise requirement cannot. There are no spare 158's and you yourself complained about 150's being cascaded this week so I don't really see how hiring a 150, even if one was available, would help?

 

[merlodlliw]

Short term emergency loans dictated by higher powers can be done. Long term 'nice to do' hires for services over and above the franchise requirement cannot. There are no spare 158's and you yourself complained about 150's being cascaded this week so I don't really see how hiring a 150, even if one was available, would help?

Actually it was reported by others before me, I was making the point, If ATW wanted to hire they could have. However the WAG EXPRESS is not a franchise requirement, both WAGS are run totally separate from the Wales & Borders franchise, it could have been another Company running them.

Bob

 

[lm321412]

Blimey, didn't intend on starting a WAG politics war/slating match/skeptics debate.

Only wanted to know wether the WAG Express had plugs or not!

 

[merlodlliw]

Blimey, didn't intend on starting a WAG politics war/slating match/skeptics debate.

Only wanted to know wether the WAG Express had plugs or not!

Its not slating, but as the trains are Political & subsidised by WAG it will always draw comment on various shades of how taxpayers money is spent and how & why the trains are run.


Bob

 

[1V53]

Actually it was reported by others before me, I was making the point, If ATW wanted to hire they could have. However the WAG EXPRESS is not a franchise requirement, both WAGS are run totally separate from the Wales & Borders franchise, it could have been another Company running them.

Bob

No! If ATW wanted to hire a 158 or 175 they couldn't have! There are none available.

If they wanted to hire top and tail stock suitable for reversing at Chester, which they are doing, the paths and final arrangements were not made in time to fit this out and train staff correctly. Fact.

You can say the same thing however many times you like but the facts are as I keep stating and I don't see what you don't understand about them.

 

[jones_bangor]

Actually it was reported by others before me, I was making the point, If ATW wanted to hire they could have.

I think ATW would have loved the 180s......

Blame the DfT and their bonkers train procurement / leasing / Stalinist control freak approach. The very best of New Labour, alive and well under the Lib-Cons.

 

[merlodlliw]

No! If ATW wanted to hire a 158 or 175 they couldn't have! There are none available.

If they wanted to hire top and tail stock suitable for reversing at Chester, which they are doing, the paths and final arrangements were not made in time to fit this out and train staff correctly. Fact.

You can say the same thing however many times you like but the facts are as I keep stating and I don't see what you don't understand about them.

You have your opinion, I have mine, so ill leave it at that.

Bob

 

[Squaddie]

Its not slating, but as the trains are Political & subsidised by WAG it will always draw comment on various shades of how taxpayers money is spent and how & why the trains are run.

And always from the same contributor, who appears to have a particular (and unfathomable) axe to grind on the issue.

 

[1V53]

You have your opinion, I have mine, so ill leave it at that.

Bob

My 'opinion' is based on stated facts though Bob, yours seems to be based on a desire to do things by hiring stock which doesn't exist or training dozens of traincrew in new rolling stock in an unrealistic timescale, or running round a class 57 in a busy station like Chester in 5 minutes!

If you have a valid argument please could you give us the case for it rather than keep arguing the same point that has been refuted with facts (ie talking of hiring stock that doesn't exist to hire) then saying 'we shall have to agree to differ' without giving your supporting facts? Just a polite request as otherwise it makes your contribution somewhat devalued.

You seem mostly well informed and often well research your posts so it puzzles me when you push such I'll informed suggestions at other times with no basis in fact.

 

[tbtc]

I think ATW would have loved the 180s......

Blame the DfT and their bonkers train procurement / leasing / Stalinist control freak approach. The very best of New Labour, alive and well under the Lib-Cons.

I'm sure ATW would have loved the five coach 125mph trains. Whether there are any of their services which need five coach 125mph trains is another story...

I bet you hate politicians interfering in train services...

 

[jones_bangor]

I bet you hate politicians interfering in train services...

In a supposedly private industry where public subsidy = profit margin, where do I start!........?

 

[merlodlliw]

My 'opinion' is based on stated facts though Bob, yours seems to be based on a desire to do things by hiring stock which doesn't exist or training dozens of traincrew in new rolling stock in an unrealistic timescale, or running round a class 57 in a busy station like Chester in 5 minutes!

If you have a valid argument please could you give us the case for it rather than keep arguing the same point that has been refuted with facts (ie talking of hiring stock that doesn't exist to hire) then saying 'we shall have to agree to differ' without giving your supporting facts? Just a polite request as otherwise it makes your contribution somewhat devalued.

You seem mostly well informed and often well research your posts so it puzzles me when you push such I'll informed suggestions at other times with no basis in fact.

Well 1V53, you work for ATW, I dont know in what position or where, so you will have facts either available, or from briefings, buts that's by the wayside,thank you for complimenting my efforts at research & yes I know a few people within WAG & the rail industry.

To draw this to a conclusion, I will accept the previous WAG Minister for transport had an agenda of his own making especially WAGAIR, and I have yet to meet anyone outside of the statutory sector who considers this money well spent, in fact is own party voted against.

As for WAG EXPRESS1"Gerald" the new WAG have only a couple of months to decide whether this train continues or not, I am aware ATW are banging on the door for a decision & my A.M (Mark Isherwood) informs me he will put down questions in the Senedd about this service,I am all for extra rail services, but consider the little used Premier class is an extravagance,

The burning question WAG2, following the discovery by myself that this train was to be routed via Crewe,as per the application by ATW to the ORR,plus running direct Llandudno Junction to Chester, I informed Wrexham Council and Various A,Ms & M.Ps, which caused the Minister to change his plans, and in haste again for Political gain get a stop gap, the 175 which started on Monday via Wrexham & calling at more stations. The problem being the Minister in his haste sanctioned a well used Birmingham service via Wrexham to be diverted via Crewe to give WAG2 a path,so in effect Wrexham gained no extra service,no consultation was allowed about killing off the Birmingham service via the Dee/Seven line.

In my previous posts it was my considered opinion that WAG2 175 funded at £25K a week by WAG was in effect not a Franchise train simply a 175 taken off another service and operated as a bought in service like WAG1 Gerald which runs with bought in non franchise leased stock, it is mine & others opinion this 175 Wales & Borders franchise 175 stock should not have been used, but other stock brought in for six months.

I am aware with open access, not a pennies worth of franchise stock can be used that is funded from another source, that is double funding, so I presume permission must have been sought from the DFT/WAG to do this with hired in ATW franchise stock, others will ask this question, I don’t think I put up hire in a 175 as ATW have them all, but leasing Companies should have other stock for hire,I will find out, not 150s of course which others state have now replaced the 175 on the HDD/CDF run, which for passenger comfort is poor for a five hour run.

ATW cancelled its Holyhead staff 67 training as reported in North Wales rail website a few months ago when the Minister changed his mind., as this recommenced.

Ok this is long winded, but the header is WAG EXPRESS.

Bob

 

[1V53]

I'm in agreement on all of this including the WAG trains being an extravagance.

However your previous posts DO often come over as anti-ATW, in areas that they can't really be blamed for: ie happily accepting feeding out of the big trough that WAG provide, and not providing the ideal stock either because of lack of timescale (which clearly seems to be WAG's fault in this case) or lack of available spot-hire stock.

I believe if it had gone via Crewe the plan was to use the other LHCS set. However persons thought they knew better and pushed for it to go via Wrexham despite lack of paths due to the single line working Chester-Wrexham. That's resulted in the situation we have now, which is a right bodge.

However if you were ATW surely you'd happily take the money and stuff it in the bank? It's the WAG that really are wasting money here.

 

[tbtc]

if you were ATW surely you'd happily take the money and stuff it in the bank? It's the WAG that really are wasting money here

Agreed.

I don't know whether its naivety on behalf of the politicians, but they are the ones at blame here. No TOC (be it First/ Stagecoach etc) is going to turn down daft money like this.

 

[Greenback]

It is political naivety. Plaid Cymru had never been in power before. The Minister wanted to deliver on some of the promises he had made to his own local supporters when he had the chance. Sadly, it has backfired, as Plaid are now out of power. I say sadly because most politicians immediately forget about any pledges they have made as soon as they are in office!

 

[tbtc]

leasing Companies should have other stock for hire

Such as?

There's maybe a couple of 460s "spare" (which are meant to be going to SWT), maybe one spare 180 (depending on failures at GC/ HT)... apart from that the only option is going to be loco hauled

 

[merlodlliw]

It is political naivety. Plaid Cymru had never been in power before. The Minister wanted to deliver on some of the promises he had made to his own local supporters when he had the chance. Sadly, it has backfired, as Plaid are now out of power. I say sadly because most politicians immediately forget about any pledges they have made as soon as they are in office!

Taking a non Political stance, even the ex Ministers Plaid supporters down here consider he was being too localised to his Constituency, The WAGS air & Rail
were Ieuans idea, given a free rein as part of the coalition deal,which Greenback you are correct backfired on him, non of the services were ever discussed in an open forum,such as the need for a Premier service, anyhow its all history now.

 

[1V53]

Apparently there's a big sweetie shop full of spare 158's just waiting to be picked!