WAG Express discussion

[merlodlliw]

I recall that in the 1970s there were just 4 day time trains in each direction between Cardiff and Crewe and an overnight "Mail" Train and worked by Class 25s. It gradually built up by extensions to Manchester and Liverpool. See how it is now, hourly including Sindaus and well patronised as we all know.
Shrewsbury is a very important location for travel from both North and South Wales because, although it is in LLoegr many Welsh organisations use Shrewsbury as a Meeting Base due to the excellent and Central travel facilities/ Llandrindod Wells would be a geographical base but try travelling there and back in a day from many places.

I attended many meetings in Shrewsbury, a very easy place to get to prior to the Assembly, I agree many voluntary orgs still use Shrewsbury.

After many moans about having to travel to Cardiff,some civil servant organised meetings in Llandod, OK for those with a car on exs, I decided
no train, no meetings as did a few more.

What amazes me is, with WG having spent £ millions on satellite buildings such as Llandudno Junction with video conferencing, why do so many need to travel to Cardiff from the North within the statutory sector for meetings such as NHS etc. Were not these buildings built to cater for meetings.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

The 2-hourly Holyhead - Cardiff service doesn't make much sense to me either, except that I doubt you could provide as high a frequency over all the lines in question without extra rolling stock if you restored direct Holyhead - Manchester links. WAG 1 does make sense to me.

I doubt the WAG express really needs as much subsidy as it gets either. From what merlodlliw has said about ATW keeping the fares revenue it sounds to me like WAG have to pay almost the entire cost of operating the service rather than the operating cost minus revenue plus a small amount of profit for ATW. In other words, the impression merlodlliw gives me is that because of the no-growth franchise, ATW have been able to force a deal that gives them a stupidly big profit, I doubt direct north Wales - Liverpool services would be any different.

A "WAG1" would make sense if there were no other Holyhead - Cardiff service. I don't think anyone is saying that there should be *no* direct link (there was always one train a day under BR/ W&W). But on top of the seven/eight other direct trains a day (and the flight!) its overkill.

I think that the WAG paying the full operating costs of the WAG1 suggests that ATW didn't think it'd attract any *additional* train passengers (e.g. those who do use it are people who'd either have used the train behind or the train in front, suggesting that the market for a Holyhead - Cardiff service is pretty saturated if running more trains won't attract more passengers).

Then again, there wasn't going to be much in the way of competition for ATW's bid to worry about - the politicians were in a pretty weak position. In hindsight any such service should have been sorted out at the start of the franchise.

 

[Penmorfa]

An interesting point you make about overcrowding on the ten coach voyager ex Euston 0910, no overcrowding from December to April,I used it last week Chester to Rhyl, hundreds of empty seats.
Ok I see the point mid summer peak, but not winter, I returned on the same ten coach voyager the week previous(Up Train), again hundreds of empty seats,any foot traffic off the ferry must have left on the earlier ATW.

As I have used the five car Voyager previous, this was never more than quarter full if that out of season.

This is just an observation I make, using this service

Bob

I merely pointed out that Virgin made a commercial decision to increase capacity to reduce overcrowding. Unfortunately Virgin diesel trains only come in 5 car sets. Clearly all 10 vehicles will not be full every day, which you seem to expect to see as the only justification to increase capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was just saying that we do things differently in Wales, and have every right to do so.

Only for devolved areas, and transport isn't really devolved.
Even then the UK structures still generally apply (eg NHS, local government, schools, police etc).
Also remember many people living in Wales come from England, and vice versa, to the great benefit of both.

 

[jones_bangor]

It certainly does. Even Westminster MPs with their floating duck houses would think the WAG Express was a little self-indulgent

Self-indulgent indeed. I should give up

Its not just one train south in the morning and one back in the evening (which it used to be), its a bi-hourly service, plus WAG1, plus WAG2 (plus the flights).

I suppose it makes sense to nationalists though...

I prefer the term patriot

Or, change at Crewe and you can get from Holyhead to Cardiff quite easily without needing a subsidised service

I don't think those trains you're talking about have any extra capacity. Oh sorry, I forgot that it's only trains in your neck of the wood get crowded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only for devolved areas, and transport isn't really devolved.
Even then the UK structures still generally apply (eg NHS, local government, schools, police etc).
Also remember many people living in Wales come from England, and vice versa, to the great benefit of both.

You'll be able to scrub out the NHS if the Tory's stay in power much longer. And expect higher rail fares as well.

 

[Penmorfa]

What I find curious in this increasingly polarised discussion if that no one has mentioned the 2 hourly North Wales - Birmingham service. Is this because it is generally considered a 'good thing'?

 

[jones_bangor]

A "WAG1" would make sense if there were no other Holyhead - Cardiff service.

It's an express service, and there's 2 of those each day.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Clearly all 10 vehicles will not be full every day

I very much doubt that the passengers would fill 5 vehicles on a great many days!

Only for devolved areas, and transport isn't really devolved.
Even then the UK structures still generally apply (eg NHS, local government, schools, police etc).
Also remember many people living in Wales come from England, and vice versa, to the great benefit of both.

Indeed. But I fear you may be wasting your breath (fingertips?).

It's an express service, and there's 2 of those each day.

Yes, an express that takes approx 20 mins less than the regular trains. Hmmm...

 

[tbtc]

I don't think those trains you're talking about have any extra capacity

Surely there's space on the ten coach Voyagers for North Wales passengers travelling as far as Crewe to change for the Cardiff service there?

What I find curious in this increasingly polarised discussion if that no one has mentioned the 2 hourly North Wales - Birmingham service. Is this because it is generally considered a 'good thing'?

The service (mainly) replaced the bi-hourly Central Trains Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester service and the FNW Birmingham - Crewe - Chester - Holyhead services with broadly less resources than before (allowing for the one DMU needed for Chester - Crewe shuttles) - a link from North Wales to Birmingham maintains the kind of service that there used to be (though via Wrexham now rather than via Crewe) and clearly wasn't invented for "patriotic" political purposes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's an express service, and there's 2 of those each day.

Plus seven or eight other services that take about the same time, plus the flights.

Overkill?

 

[mr williams]

I recall that in the 1970s there were just 4 day time trains in each direction between Cardiff and Crewe and an overnight "Mail" Train and worked by Class 25s.

And some horrendous gaps in the timetable! I remember in 1978 the northbound trains to Crewe left Cardiff at approx 05.30, 07.45, 11.45, 15.20 and 17.20. The northbound mail ran Mon-Fri only at about 20.00 and only stopped at Newport, Pontypool, Abergavenny, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe.

Most were class 25 (later 33s), consisting of five/six mk 1 carriages, a small first class section, no buffet, but occasionally a three-car dmu did the run, as they did the local trains to Hereford at approx 18.30 and 23.00. On summer Saturdays the trains would often be longer.

Southbound started with the return mail leaving Crewe at about 01.30 (SX), then 06.00, 10.00, 13.30, 16.00 and the last at around 20.00. The only local from Hereford left at about 07.15 meaning there were 7 down and 8 up.

An additional southbound train leaving Crewe at around 07.30 started in about 1981 calling only at Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny (Pontypool on Saturday only), and Newport.

Sunday was just two trains each way but often - and especially in the summer - eight to ten carriages with a class 47.

Those were the days.....not!

 

[jones_bangor]

Surely there's space on the ten coach Voyagers for North Wales passengers travelling as far as Crewe to change for the Cardiff service there?

Using one anomaly which probably has more to do with Virgin not wanting to pay an extra driver in the between peak trough really shows how threadbare your standpoint is!!

The service (mainly) replaced the bi-hourly Central Trains Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester service and the FNW Birmingham - Crewe - Chester - Holyhead services with broadly less resources than before (allowing for the one DMU needed for Chester - Crewe shuttles) - a link from North Wales to Birmingham maintains the kind of service that there used to be (though via Wrexham now rather than via Crewe) and clearly wasn't invented for "patriotic" political purposes.

I love the regular services to Birmingham (and Manchester) - being a patriot doesn't mean I don't go to England

 

[Rhydgaled]

A "WAG1" would make sense if there were no other Holyhead - Cardiff service. I don't think anyone is saying that there should be *no* direct link (there was always one train a day under BR/ W&W). But on top of the seven/eight other direct trains a day (and the flight!) its overkill.

It's an express service, and there's 2 of those each day.

Yes, 2 express + 7/8 = 10 trains per day = overkill for the Holyhead - Cardiff route. 2 or 3 a day each way (all LHCS expresses with buffet car, drop first class if you like and charge for the food) would be about right I think.

However, I'm not sure you if could retain the frequency over the marches and the north Wales coast with the resources from the other 7/8 Holyhead - Cardiffs any other way (other than terminating the two halves of the service at Chester, then everyone would be shouting that the two might as well be combined). Does anyone happen to have an Excell spreadsheet version of the current Holyhead - Cardiff and Manchester - S.W.Wales timetables so I can have a go at trying to deduce how many diagrams are involved (it'd take me ages to type the whole thing into Excell)?

the politicians were in a pretty weak position. In hindsight any such service should have been sorted out at the start of the franchise.

Exactly, the franchise seems to make these additional services much more expensive than need be.

 

[Gareth]

The Welsh edition of the Daily Post has been published for decades! Long before I was born! Not too sure about the Cheshire Edition. The end of the daily print edition of the Daily Post (Liverpool Edition) was tragic though.

Like I said, there were regional variations but it was essentially the same paper throughout the Liverpool Bay area. In the last few years, they split into two entirely different papers and that's what effectively killed the 'Liverpool' Daily Post.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Only for devolved areas, and transport isn't really devolved.
Even then the UK structures still generally apply (eg NHS, local government, schools, police etc).

Rubbish! You are wrong on all counts. The NHS in Wales is seperate from the English systerm, as is the NHS in Scotland and northern Ireland, hence no prescription charges and no drastic changes as recently passed by Westminster. Local Government is what it says on the tin, whether in England, Wales or anywhere else. The Schools system, i.e. Education, is quite different; the lack of SATS being one obvious example and the difference in Tuition Fees for Tertiary Education being another. The Police service is, and has been, for many years devolved to local areas throughout Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

If you must attempt to make political points, please have the courtesy to check your facts.

 

[Gareth]

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't think the Halton curve has ever had a regular interval service over it, even when it was double. It's a much longer route from Chester to Liverpool than Merseyrail, so even a semi fast service would take around the same time from Chester to Liverpool.

There were frequent services over it up until the 1970s, I believe.
[

Why are people obsessed with direct trains from North Wales to the capital Cardiff? The demand IS there, the trains are always busy in the morning and evening - what is the issue?

The issue appears to be going through Shropshire & Herefordshire. It's not my issue though.

 

[jones_bangor]

Rubbish! You are wrong on all counts. The NHS in Wales is seperate from the English systerm, as is the NHS in Scotland and northern Ireland, hence no prescription charges and no drastic changes as recently passed by Westminster. Local Government is what it says on the tin, whether in England, Wales or anywhere else. The Schools system, i.e. Education, is quite different; the lack of SATS being one obvious example and the difference in Tuition Fees for Tertiary Education being another. The Police service is, and has been, for many years devolved to local areas throughout Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

If you must attempt to make political points, please have the courtesy to check your facts.

To be fair to our friends in England, the London media pays little attention to the reality of devolution and makes even less effort to explain its implications.

 

[merlodlliw]

I merely pointed out that Virgin made a commercial decision to increase capacity to reduce overcrowding. Unfortunately Virgin diesel trains only come in 5 car sets. Clearly all 10 vehicles will not be full every day, which you seem to expect to see as the only justification to increase capacity.

my point is,the five car, which I used on this service Chester to Rhyl weekly between
late August & May was never 30% full at any time I used it, I just find it strange VT make it a ten car in winter between Chester & Holyhead with so few pax using the five car set.
my opinion of course
anyhow back to the original header of this thread. 67 on the WAG

lots of pics in this weeks excellent http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[Penmorfa]

There were frequent services over it up until the 1970s, I believe.

Simply not true. The LMR timetable for Sept 64 to June 65 shows NO through trains fron North Wales to Liverpool. In the opposite direction are shown: 07.50 Lime St to Bangor (arrive 11.13) and 17.10 Lime St. to Holyhead (arrive 21.22).

So can we knock the idea that the Halton Curve route from North Wales to Liverpool was once an important route firmly on the head?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

To be fair to our friends in England, the London media pays little attention to the reality of devolution and makes even less effort to explain its implications.

To clarify matters for our English friends and others who might not be aware of what the Welsh Government has responsibility for, the following will help you from jumping to the wrong conclusions. Anything that is not in the list, e.g. Taxation and Defence, is administered by Westminster.

Agriculture, fisheries, forestry and rural development

Ancient monuments and historic buildings

Culture

Economic development

Education and training

Environment

Fire and rescue services and promotion of fire safety

Food

Health and health services

Highways and transport

Housing

Local government

National Assembly for Wales

Public administration

Social welfare

Sport and recreation

Tourism

Town and country planning

Water and flood defence

Welsh language

The Welsh Assembly Government can legislate on transport policy in certain areas: road safety strategies such as speed limits, regulation of pedestrian crossings and on-street parking construction, and maintenance of trunk roads and motorways - but not smaller roads, which are maintained by local authorities, or parts of the Second Severn Crossing, which are not devolved.

It is also charged with oversight of the Wales and Borders Rail Franchise and investment in rail infrastructure, but not rail regulation or safety.

The Welsh Assembly Government also oversees the provision of other public transport services such as buses.

 

[merlodlliw]

There were frequent services over it up until the 1970s, I believe.

Simply not true. The LMR timetable for Sept 64 to June 65 shows NO through trains fron North Wales to Liverpool. In the opposite direction are shown: 07.50 Lime St to Bangor (arrive 11.13) and 17.10 Lime St. to Holyhead (arrive 21.22).

So can we knock the idea that the Halton Curve route from North Wales to Liverpool was once an important route firmly on the head?

Perhaps there was a more frequent service in the 50s, I do recall a train arriving from Liverpool arr Rhyl around 1750 this was the 1625 from Lime Street to Afonwen,the local station staff called it the Liverpool Club, then at 1805 the Manchester Club arrived ex Exchange 1630.
As a youngster working for a Rhyl news wholesaler, I met both trains for collection of evening papers.


Bob

 

[Greenback]

Please can we refrain from veering too far off topic?

This thread is for discussions about the WAG Express. Discussions about the pro's and con's of devolution and independence can be held elsewhere!

 

[Penmorfa]

Perhaps there was a more frequent service in the 50s, I do recall a train arriving from Liverpool arr Rhyl around 1750 this was the 1625 from Lime Street to Afonwen,the local station staff called it the Liverpool Club, then at 1805 the Manchester Club arrived ex Exchange 1630.
As a youngster working for a Rhyl news wholesaler, I met both trains for collection of evening papers.


Bob

Perhaps there was, however timetables of the 1950's have little relevance to today's railway.

My point being that the Halton Curve route has never been important to North Wales. In todays scenario: Merseyrail offers 4 trains an hour from Chester to Liverpool. As well as serving 4 stations in Liverpool, it also serves 2 major ones in Birkenhead.

A reopened route to Liverpool via the curve will only offer, at best, an hourly service, this will most certainly not be operated by Arriva. It will be a Chester - Liverpool service. It's reopening offers no benefits and has little relevance to North Wales at all.

 

[tbtc]

A reopened route to Liverpool via the curve will only offer, at best, an hourly service, this will most certainly not be operated by Arriva. It will be a Chester - Liverpool service. It's reopening offers no benefits and has little relevance to North Wales at all.

There'd be no point in reopening the curve (beyond its token "Parliamentary" service) just to give Liverpool a fifth service to Chester each hour.

The point of reopening the curve (to regular passenger services in both directions) would be to give direct diesel services from Liverpool to Wrexham and/or the North Wales coast (home to many exiled Scousers).

At the moment there can't be a service from Liverpool to (say) Llandudno because DMUs wouldn't be allowed to use the Merseyrail tunnels (for obvious ventilation issues), plus the lack of electrification beyond Chester means that the EMUs can go no further. The only way to resolve this impasse would be to reopen the Halton curve to traffic in both directions, opening up the Liverpool job market for those in Wales, and encouraging more Scousers to visit Wales.

But thats just based on an economic argument and probably fails the "patriot" test

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Please can we refrain from veering too far off topic?

This thread is for discussions about the WAG Express. Discussions about the pro's and con's of devolution and independence can be held elsewhere!

I'm quite happy to do that. I was just pointing what Welsh Government has responsibility for to correct what people assume. The so called 'WAG Express' is a useful service and is provided from Welsh Government funds to serve a perceived need. There is no other way it can be provided within the terms of the Wales and Borders Franchise which was let on the assumption of 'no growth'.

 

[Greenback]

I'm quite happy to do that. I was just pointing what Welsh Government has responsibility for to correct what people assume. The so called 'WAG Express' is a useful service and is provided from Welsh Government funds to serve a perceived need. There is no other way it can be provided within the terms of the Wales and Borders Franchise which was let on the assumption of 'no growth'.

I have no problem with your post, or any others at this point. I just didn't want the discussion to move further into the nationalism/patriotism area. That cna be discussed in General Discussion, if people want to debate it.

As long as we keep the posts railway and WAG Express related, everything is good.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Welsh Assembly Government can legislate on transport policy in certain areas: road safety strategies such as speed limits, regulation of pedestrian crossings and on-street parking construction, and maintenance of trunk roads and motorways - but not smaller roads, which are maintained by local authorities, or parts of the Second Severn Crossing, which are not devolved.

It is also charged with oversight of the Wales and Borders Rail Franchise and investment in rail infrastructure, but not rail regulation or safety.

The Welsh Assembly Government also oversees the provision of other public transport services such as buses.

I don't think that is entirly correct. Investment in rail infrastructure is NOT devolved. WAG can spend money on rail, for example the class 158 refurbishment, but I don't know where that money came from. If rail infrastructure spending was devolved, WAG would be given a slice of taxaition revenue for that by Westminister, but it is not devolved. This is why they are having to have discussions with the Westminister government over electrification to Swansea and the ValleyLines, if rail infrastructure spending was devolved it would be WAG's responsibility to pay for electrification in Wales.

 

[Penmorfa]

There'd be no point in reopening the curve (beyond its token "Parliamentary" service) just to give Liverpool a fifth service to Chester each hour.

The point of reopening the curve (to regular passenger services in both directions) would be to give direct diesel services from Liverpool to Wrexham and/or the North Wales coast (home to many exiled Scousers).

At the moment there can't be a service from Liverpool to (say) Llandudno because DMUs wouldn't be allowed to use the Merseyrail tunnels (for obvious ventilation issues), plus the lack of electrification beyond Chester means that the EMUs can go no further. The only way to resolve this impasse would be to reopen the Halton curve to traffic in both directions, opening up the Liverpool job market for those in Wales, and encouraging more Scousers to visit Wales.

But thats just based on an economic argument and probably fails the "patriot" test

My logic has nothing to do with patriotism, more to do with the realities of railway franchising. A Liverpool - Chester all stations service would be operated by Northern, who already operate the summer saturdays train. I have shown that this route has had no relevance to North Wales for nearly 50 years. There is no 'impasse'. The North Wales to Liverpool service is the best it has even been.

 

[tbtc]

My logic has nothing to do with patriotism, more to do with the realities of railway franchising. A Liverpool - Chester all stations service would be operated by Northern, who already operate the summer saturdays train. I have shown that this route has had no relevance to North Wales for nearly 50 years. There is no 'impasse'. The North Wales to Liverpool service is the best it has even been.

So you are saying that ATW cannot serve Liverpool just because that's currently a Northern route?

A lot can change (like ATW musceling in on the Manchester Airport route), franchise boundaries aren't set in stone.

I just happen to think that a service from Rhyl to Liverpool would be busier than a service from Rhyl to Cardiff, that's all.

 

[Greenback]

So you are saying that ATW cannot serve Liverpool just because that's currently a Northern route?

A lot can change (like ATW musceling in on the Manchester Airport route), franchise boundaries aren't set in stone.

I just happen to think that a service from Rhyl to Liverpool would be busier than a service from Rhyl to Cardiff, that's all.

Franchise boundaries are not set in stone, no, but it isn't a simple matter to introduce new services either!

 

[tbtc]

Franchise boundaries are not set in stone, no, but it isn't a simple matter to introduce new services either!

I don't think I suggested it was a simple matter.

What I was suggesting was that there is demand for travel between Liverpool and Wales and that if the curve at Halton were to be doubled (or bi-directional) then you wouldn't go to that expense just to provide Chester with a fifth train an hour into Liverpool, you'd do so to provide a direct Liverpool service to Wrexham/ Rhyl etc.

Anywhere else in the UK this would happen a lot sooner as those on both sides would appreciate the benefits that a direct service could give.