WAG Express discussion

[ainsworth74]

No, because they are separate and self-contained, they are apart from the National Rail network.

They are? They're maintained/owned by Network Rail, they're built to the normal heavy rail regulations, obviously the tunnels under the Mersey would be an issue for diesel stock but I don't think there is a ban on any rolling stock or other TOCs running over the lines (indeed I'm fairly sure that Northern share some of the lines with Merseyrail).

 

[Michael.Y]

The Merseyrail franchise, referred to officially as a "contract", is awarded by the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive rather than the Department for Transport which issues all other rail franchises in Great Britain. The only other exception is the franchise for the London Overground network, awarded by Transport for London in 2007. Merseyrail is given this exceptional treatment because its tracks are self-contained and separate from the rest of the railway network – no other services normally run over the third-rail network. As a result of this isolation, the franchise-holder is keen to adopt vertical integration – taking responsibility for maintenance of the track from Network Rail. The current Franchise Manager is Dave Davenport

 

[emoaconr]

They are? They're maintained/owned by Network Rail, they're built to the normal heavy rail regulations, obviously the tunnels under the Mersey would be an issue for diesel stock but I don't think there is a ban on any rolling stock or other TOCs running over the lines (indeed I'm fairly sure that Northern share some of the lines with Merseyrail).

There are short sections however where other TOCs do come into contact within the Merseyrail's signalled lines... mostly insignificant:

• between Liverpool South Parkway and Hunts Cross
• between Southport triangle junction and Southport station
• Chester platform 7 (also used by through ATW services)
• Bidston platform 2 (also used by terminating ATW services)

Diesel MPVs and locos have been used by NR in the past through all the tunnels, such as this one in February:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53wZK2NMc4M

Here's another at Hamilton Square:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deiZyZXhLJM

 

[Gareth]

There are short sections however where other TOCs do come into contact within the Merseyrail's signalled lines... mostly insignificant:

• between Liverpool South Parkway and Hunts Cross
• between Southport triangle junction and Southport station
• Chester platform 7 (also used by through ATW services)
• Bidston platform 2 (also used by terminating ATW services)

Diesel MPVs and locos have been used by NR in the past through all the tunnels, such as this one in February:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53wZK2NMc4M

Here's another at Hamilton Square:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deiZyZXhLJM

And there are a good few places where London Underground shares tracks with mainline trains. More than Merseyrail, if I recall correctly.

Merseyrail may still be a part of National Rail, but it is essentially its own thing in many ways. I don't think any significant track-sharing with other TOCs would be such a great idea.

 

[merlodlliw]

They bought outright I believe 22 MK2's in 2005.

I recall a month before the ATW clock face timetables commenced, A certain Mr ...... CEO of ATW, telling us why he had authorised the buying of the mark 2 stock, this was at a meeting of Wrexham Railway Society, his idea was good & well thought out, but his masters at Arriva HQ, thought different and allegedly sacked him for authorising the buying of the stock, much of that stock is still laid up at Canton without turning a wheel in seven years.

A lot of the overcrowding problems would have been relieved,if he had continued in post,

I don't have to mention who followed him & bedside manners


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

WAG 3 - I'm all for it - Aberystwyth - Mach - Newtown - Welshpool - Shrewsbury - Hereford? - Newport & Cardiff Central.

No one in Mid Wales will thank you for that apart from a few nationalists you can count on one hand in Aberystwyth/Machynlleth area. If any other direct services to the Cambrian were to happen Manchester is the overwhelming choice of many as that's where the market is. Some of the bidders for the Wales and Borders franchise initially put such proposals forward before the SRA came up with "no growth".
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An interesting point. What was the frequency on the various sections (as follows) before ATW introduced the Holyhead - Cardiff 2-hourly service, and to where were the trains that made up that frequency routed?

• Holyhead - Chester
• Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
• Shrewsbury - Crewe
• Shrewsbury - Newport/Cardiff

What alternative services could be achived using the current number of units used to provide the 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyheads if they were withdrawn?

The number of trains Chester- Llandudno Jnc were about the same, Wrexham was brought up to hourly it had a few gaps in it. The total Marches trains included Liverpool and Bristol trains as well as Manchester and some peak to Abergavenny. ATW just reshuffled the existing resource.

Welsh people used the through Marches- Bristol services as well there's plenty of our members who use to and regret their passing. They've not made alternative trips to N Wales or Cardiff just complain about having to change at Newport or via Birmingham.

 

[merlodlliw]

Running a pair of Voyagers to Holyhead once a day was a commercial decision by Virgin Trains to counter overcrowding. Not a company renowned for being 'barking'. Between now and the end of September that extra capacity will be very welcome. Before you start dissecting our Inter City service let's see what the bidders for West Coast come up with. I would not be at all surprised to see more Euston trains from North Wales.

An interesting point you make about overcrowding on the ten coach voyager ex Euston 0910, no overcrowding from December to April,I used it last week Chester to Rhyl, hundreds of empty seats.
Ok I see the point mid summer peak, but not winter, I returned on the same ten coach voyager the week previous(Up Train), again hundreds of empty seats,any foot traffic off the ferry must have left on the earlier ATW.

As I have used the five car Voyager previous, this was never more than quarter full if that out of season.

This is just an observation I make, using this service

Bob

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I'm afraid the differences will only become more profound over time. We will do things our way, and I'm afraid you will have to leave us to it.

Please don't be afraid! I wish you well. But if you can get over yourselves and work with England rather than seeing us as an evil rival, it will all go so much better for you...

 

[tbtc]

Actually, I don't have a problem with changing. You're the one making a big issue about it

So why is it essential for Holyhead to have so many direct services to Cardiff, if there's no problem changing?

Connections were always available at Crewe, in the past. Couldn't all the WAGstaff change at Crewe (if its no problem)?

Yet we've seen other direct links scrapped (Liverpool - Cardiff, Shrewsbury - Bristol, Manchester - Holyhead) to find the resources for several more Holyhead - Cardiff direct services.

 

[Gareth]

So why is it essential for Holyhead to have so many direct services to Cardiff, if there's no problem changing?

Connections were always available at Crewe, in the past. Couldn't all the WAGstaff change at Crewe (if its no problem)?

Yet we've seen other direct links scrapped (Liverpool - Cardiff, Shrewsbury - Bristol, Manchester - Holyhead) to find the resources for several more Holyhead - Cardiff direct services.

It's about nation-building. Nationalism is an irrational and increasingly outmoded concept, especially in the case of Wales & England which have been a united country long before many countries on continent were even perceived. The rail network, amongst practically everything else, reflects this.

The fact Liverpool has no links to North Wales is utterly ridiculous. Liverpool virtually is North Wales. The Halton Curve should be considered a much bigger priority regionally than it currently is. Too much is left to Halton Council just because the curve is there.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just had my (complementary) copy of the ATW staff mag ASPECT. MD Tim Bell specifically mentions continued strong growth on North Wales to Manchester and South Wales to Manchester routes. Only mention of North to South is that Cardiff CC Env Health have given 5 stars food hygiene rating to WAG Express Kitchen Car.

158 refurb due to finish by Sept 12. ATW been trying to knock up WG for extra carriages - then again they've been doing that since Dec 03....

 

[Proud Salopian]

It's about nation-building. Nationalism is an irrational and increasingly outmoded concept, especially in the case of Wales & England which have been a united country long before many countries on continent were even perceived. The rail network, amongst practically everything else, reflects this.

Absolutely. And we seem to have some pretty pathetic nationalism when some regard having to travel through English counties to get from north to south Wales as being an issue. I mean - the horror of having to travel through Shropshire! Or even worse: having to call at Hereford! Oh dear..

I'm all for promoting the idea of a Welsh nation and creating Welsh institutions to govern a devolved Wales (one that is still part of the UK) but it does not require (and indeed it is dangerous/not in the interests of the majority of Welsh people) a separating of Wales (and in particular its infrastructure) from England.

 

[anthony263]

Just had my (complementary) copy of the ATW staff mag ASPECT. MD Tim Bell specifically mentions continued strong growth on North Wales to Manchester and South Wales to Manchester routes. Only mention of North to South is that Cardiff CC Env Health have given 5 stars food hygiene rating to WAG Express Kitchen Car.

158 refurb due to finish by Sept 12. ATW been trying to knock up WG for extra carriages - then again they've been doing that since Dec 03....

I like to know where ATW expect the WG to get some more dmu's from.

2015 would be the earliest I suspect for some dmu's to become available unless the WG ordered some new dmu's from Bombardier

 

[The Informer]

It's about nation-building. Nationalism is an irrational and increasingly outmoded concept, especially in the case of Wales & England which have been a united country long before many countries on continent were even perceived. The rail network, amongst practically everything else, reflects this.

The fact Liverpool has no links to North Wales is utterly ridiculous. Liverpool virtually is North Wales. The Halton Curve should be considered a much bigger priority regionally than it currently is. Too much is left to Halton Council just because the curve is there.

I can get to liverpool by train from north wales no problem. I can jump on at wrexham and go via chester or bidston and to say Liverpool is virtually North Wales when its across 2 estuarys is bizzare.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I can get to liverpool by train from north wales no problem. I can jump on at wrexham and go via chester or bidston and to say Liverpool is virtually North Wales when its across 2 estuarys is bizzare.

He meant in economic terms. Obviously Liverpool is in England and there are clear geographic dividing lines between it and Wales. But in terms of jobs, shopping, etc, Liverpool and north Wales have close ties.

 

[Gareth]

I can get to liverpool by train from north wales no problem. I can jump on at wrexham and go via chester or bidston and to say Liverpool is virtually North Wales when its across 2 estuarys is bizzare.

Huh? You can be in deepest Gogland in no time (at least driving). If changing for Liverpool is no issue, then changing for more distant Cardiff shouldn't be an issue either.

Don't get the 'two estuary' thing and why that matters in any way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He meant in economic terms. Obviously Liverpool is in England and there are clear geographic dividing lines between it and Wales. But in terms of jobs, shopping, etc, Liverpool and north Wales have close ties.

Wales is a political construction not a geographic one. Devon's three estuaries away from Liverpool, yet both are England. If you're going to insist that Flintshire is so geograpically distant from Liverpool, then you have to accept that Chester is geopraphically distant from Liverpool also. It just isn't.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I like to know where ATW expect the WG to get some more dmu's from.

2015 would be the earliest I suspect for some dmu's to become available unless the WG ordered some new dmu's from Bombardier

Its hard to see any cascade this side of GWML electrification and what NW Triangle frees up will go into North of England, TPE will see 185's replace 158's and then flush Pacers out the bottom up North. Maybe Liverpool - Norwich for 185's?

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW been trying to knock up WG for extra carriages - then again they've been doing that since Dec 03....

'Knock up' meaning what exactly?

Yet we've seen other direct links scrapped (Liverpool - Cardiff, Shrewsbury - Bristol, Manchester - Holyhead) to find the resources for several more Holyhead - Cardiff direct services.

Sounds like there must have been a few more resources back then. I doubt ATW could drop the 2-hourly Holyhead-Cardiff DMUs, replace them with a 2-hourly Holyhead - Manchester and maintain the 2-hourly frequency on Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Cardiff without needing additional units. If they can, I think they should (Holyhead - Manchester being a geographicly more sensible route than Holyhead - Cardiff).

I like to know where ATW expect the WG to get some more dmu's from.

2015 would be the earliest I suspect for some dmu's to become available unless the WG ordered some new dmu's from Bombardier

WAG could subsidise Arriva to get those stored mark2s refurbished though, of course they would need locos and DBSOs refurbishing too. It's possible, the stock is available, but doubtless the required refurbishments would be too expensive for WAG (unless they scrap Ieaun Air (which I think can't happen before 2014 anyway) and/or some bypasses (do that WAG, pretty please with sugar on)).

Its hard to see any cascade this side of GWML electrification and what NW Triangle frees up will go into North of England, TPE will see 185's replace 158's and then flush Pacers out the bottom up North. Maybe Liverpool - Norwich for 185's?

By 2015, I think anthony is refering to the Edinbrough - Glasgow electrification. I really hope Wales gets more 158s out of that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

'Knock up' meaning what exactly?

Get them to pay for it.

Sounds like there must have been a few more resources back then. I doubt ATW could drop the 2-hourly Holyhead-Cardiff DMUs, replace them with a 2-hourly Holyhead - Manchester and maintain the 2-hourly frequency on Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Cardiff without needing additional units. If they can, I think they should (Holyhead - Manchester being a geographicly more sensible route than Holyhead - Cardiff).

We had cuts in formation lengths in Dec 03 on the Cambrian.


WAG could subsidise Arriva to get those stored mark2s refurbished though, of course they would need locos and DBSOs refurbishing too. It's possible, the stock is available, but doubtless the required refurbishments would be too expensive for WAG (unless they scrap Ieaun Air (which I think can't happen before 2014 anyway) and/or some bypasses (do that WAG, pretty please with sugar on)).

Recent noises are not rail orientated. First Minister is campaigning to be allowed to borrow money to spend on M4.

By 2015, I think anthony is refering to the Edinbrough - Glasgow electrification. I really hope Wales gets more 158s out of that.

Scotland got rid of 1980's stock some time back so 158's up there maybe free but maybe earmarked for strengthening elsewhere though the current SNP Govt doesn't seem as pro rail as previous administrations n Edinburgh.

 

[merlodlliw]

He meant in economic terms. Obviously Liverpool is in England and there are clear geographic dividing lines between it and Wales. But in terms of jobs, shopping, etc, Liverpool and north Wales have close ties.

very close ties, for almost 100 years the largest selling daily newspaper in North Wales was the Welsh Edition of the Liverpool Daily Post, printed in Liverpool.

It is now part of Trinity/Mirror, printed in Oldham Lancs, but still boasts the largest readership in North Wales,the title Liverpool was dropped a few years ago.

When its sister paper the Evening Liverpool Echo became a morning daily last year ,the Liverpool/North West edition of the Daily Post was axed.

Bob

 

[Gareth]

very close ties, for almost 100 years the largest selling daily newspaper in North Wales was the Welsh Edition of the Liverpool Daily Post, printed in Liverpool.

It is now part of Trinity/Mirror, printed in Oldham Lancs, but still boasts the largest readership in North Wales,the title Liverpool was dropped a few years ago.

When its sister paper the Evening Liverpool Echo became a morning daily last year ,the Liverpool/North West edition of the Daily Post was axed.

Bob

Quite. Being one of the UK's largest cities, it was always quite natural for it to have a big association with surrounding parts of Lancashire, Cheshire & North Wales. Traditionally, there was just one Liverpool Daily Post. I think there may been regional variations for adverts but it was the same paper for both gogs & scousers. The split only happened a decade or so ago, I think. It was never necessary, in my opinion and it effectively killed the 'English' half, which was now no longer different to the Liverpool Echo. Unfortunately, these natural & historic ties have been not only neglected but actively undermined in the last few decades as the UK subtley established provinces, with North Wales now being in a Cardiff province and Liverpool/Chester being in a Manchester province. The rail situation just goes to show.

If come sense ever prevails and the Halton Curve was ever reinstated, what service pattern could we expect? Perhaps the Liverpool-Llandudno service could make a return, supplimenting the Manchester service and perhaps removing the shuttle between Llandudno & Llandudno Juncion.

 

[tbtc]

Scotland got rid of 1980's stock some time back so 158's up there maybe free but maybe earmarked for strengthening elsewhere though the current SNP Govt doesn't seem as pro rail as previous administrations n Edinburgh.

Scotland's 150s passed south a few years ago, but there are still plenty of 1980s DMUs there (there must be almost a hundred 156 + 158s).

Credit to the SNP though, they've concentrated on supporting train services to where people want to travel (rather than giving every corner of the country a direct Edinburgh service, just because Edinburgh is the administrative capital). They've not bothered with "restaurant cars" on ScotRail services either, for some reason...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

very close ties, for almost 100 years the largest selling daily newspaper in North Wales was the Welsh Edition of the Liverpool Daily Post, printed in Liverpool.

It is now part of Trinity/Mirror, printed in Oldham Lancs, but still boasts the largest readership in North Wales,the title Liverpool was dropped a few years ago.

When its sister paper the Evening Liverpool Echo became a morning daily last year ,the Liverpool/North West edition of the Daily Post was axed.

Bob

Quite. Being one of the UK's largest cities, it was always quite natural for it to have a big association with surrounding parts of Lancashire, Cheshire & North Wales. Traditionally, there was just one Liverpool Daily Post. I think there may been regional variations for adverts but it was the same paper for both gogs & scousers. The split only happened a decade or so ago, I think. It was never necessary, in my opinion and it effectively killed the 'English' half, which was now no longer different to the Liverpool Echo. Unfortunately, these natural & historic ties have been not only neglected but actively undermined in the last few decades as the UK subtley established provinces, with North Wales now being in a Cardiff province and Liverpool/Chester being in a Manchester province. The rail situation just goes to show.

If come sense ever prevails and the Halton Curve was ever reinstated, what service pattern could we expect? Perhaps the Liverpool-Llandudno service could make a return, supplimenting the Manchester service and perhaps removing the shuttle between Llandudno & Llandudno Juncion.

A shame that our politiciased railways don't reflect actual links like these.

No wonder ATW needs the biggest subsidy if its priorities are like this.

 

[D1009]

If come sense ever prevails and the Halton Curve was ever reinstated, what service pattern could we expect? Perhaps the Liverpool-Llandudno service could make a return, supplimenting the Manchester service and perhaps removing the shuttle between Llandudno & Llandudno Juncion.

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't think the Halton curve has ever had a regular interval service over it, even when it was double. It's a much longer route from Chester to Liverpool than Merseyrail, so even a semi fast service would take around the same time from Chester to Liverpool.

 

[PHILIPE]

I recall that in the 1970s there were just 4 day time trains in each direction between Cardiff and Crewe and an overnight "Mail" Train and worked by Class 25s. It gradually built up by extensions to Manchester and Liverpool. See how it is now, hourly including Sindaus and well patronised as we all know.
Shrewsbury is a very important location for travel from both North and South Wales because, although it is in LLoegr many Welsh organisations use Shrewsbury as a Meeting Base due to the excellent and Central travel facilities/ Llandrindod Wells would be a geographical base but try travelling there and back in a day from many places.

 

[jones_bangor]

Please don't be afraid! I wish you well. But if you can get over yourselves and work with England rather than seeing us as an evil rival, it will all go so much better for you...

I don't see England as an evil rival in any way shape or form, I was just saying that we do things differently in Wales, and have every right to do so.

Huh? You can be in deepest Gogland in no time (at least driving). If changing for Liverpool is no issue, then changing for more distant Cardiff shouldn't be an issue either.

Why are people obsessed with direct trains from North Wales to the capital Cardiff? The demand IS there, the trains are always busy in the morning and evening - what is the issue?

Wales is a political construction not a geographic one. Devon's three estuaries away from Liverpool, yet both are England. If you're going to insist that Flintshire is so geograpically distant from Liverpool, then you have to accept that Chester is geopraphically distant from Liverpool also. It just isn't.

Wales is a cultural construction. Wales and Liverpool used to be much closely culturally, with Eisteddfodau held in Liverpool before the war. What soured things was Tryweryn, and things have never recovered really.

to say Liverpool is virtually North Wales when its across 2 estuarys is bizzare.

I have to agree. Liverpool is NOT North Wales. There's a lot of scousers living in North Wales, but it isn't Liverpool.

A shame that our politiciased railways don't reflect actual links like these.

Change at Chester and proceed to the Merseyrail platform. You really won't have to wait long for your link.

 

[tgsh2011]

Quite. Being one of the UK's largest cities, it was always quite natural for it to have a big association with surrounding parts of Lancashire, Cheshire & North Wales. Traditionally, there was just one Liverpool Daily Post. I think there may been regional variations for adverts but it was the same paper for both gogs & scousers. The split only happened a decade or so ago, I think. It was never necessary, in my opinion and it effectively killed the 'English' half, which was now no longer different to the Liverpool Echo. Unfortunately, these natural & historic ties have been not only neglected but actively undermined in the last few decades as the UK subtley established provinces, with North Wales now being in a Cardiff province and Liverpool/Chester being in a Manchester province. The rail situation just goes to show.

If come sense ever prevails and the Halton Curve was ever reinstated, what service pattern could we expect? Perhaps the Liverpool-Llandudno service could make a return, supplimenting the Manchester service and perhaps removing the shuttle between Llandudno & Llandudno Juncion.

The Welsh edition of the Daily Post has been published for decades! Long before I was born! Not too sure about the Cheshire Edition. The end of the daily print edition of the Daily Post (Liverpool Edition) was tragic though.

 

[tbtc]

we do things differently in Wales, and have every right to do so

It certainly does. Even Westminster MPs with their floating duck houses would think the WAG Express was a little self-indulgent

Why are people obsessed with direct trains from North Wales to the capital Cardiff? The demand IS there, the trains are always busy in the morning and evening - what is the issue?

Its not just one train south in the morning and one back in the evening (which it used to be), its a bi-hourly service, plus WAG1, plus WAG2 (plus the flights).

I suppose it makes sense to nationalists though...

I have to agree. Liverpool is NOT North Wales. There's a lot of scousers living in North Wales, but it isn't Liverpool

Yet no train services to recognise this obvious market for people travelling between north wales and Liverpool. I doubt such a service would need the kind of subsidy that the WAG Express does.

Change at Chester and proceed to the Merseyrail platform. You really won't have to wait long for your link.

Or, change at Crewe and you can get from Holyhead to Cardiff quite easily without needing a subsidised service

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't think the Halton curve has ever had a regular interval service over it, even when it was double. It's a much longer route from Chester to Liverpool than Merseyrail, so even a semi fast service would take around the same time from Chester to Liverpool.

Several trains from Liverpool Lime St to North Wales used the Curve, an important one being the 1625 to Afonwen. known locally as the Liverpool Club,it arrived in Rhyl at around 1755, this was in the 60s.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Welsh edition of the Daily Post has been published for decades! Long before I was born! Not too sure about the Cheshire Edition. The end of the daily print edition of the Daily Post (Liverpool Edition) was tragic though.

Correct about the Post Welsh Edn, in fact a special Welsh Edition of the Echo was published until the 70s.

A revamped Cheshire/North West/.Liverpool edition of the Daily Post was started around ten years ago, it went too upmarket & lost sales, with the Echo becoming a morning, the Liverpool Post edition was doomed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Its not just one train south in the morning and one back in the evening (which it used to be), its a bi-hourly service, plus WAG1, plus WAG2 (plus the flights).

The 2-hourly Holyhead - Cardiff service doesn't make much sense to me either, except that I doubt you could provide as high a frequency over all the lines in question without extra rolling stock if you restored direct Holyhead - Manchester links. WAG 1 does make sense to me.

Yet no train services to recognise this obvious market for people travelling between north wales and Liverpool. I doubt such a service would need the kind of subsidy that the WAG Express does.

I doubt the WAG express really needs as much subsidy as it gets either. From what merlodlliw has said about ATW keeping the fares revenue it sounds to me like WAG have to pay almost the entire cost of operating the service rather than the operating cost minus revenue plus a small amount of profit for ATW. In other words, the impression merlodlliw gives me is that because of the no-growth franchise, ATW have been able to force a deal that gives them a stupidly big profit, I doubt direct north Wales - Liverpool services would be any different.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Why are people obsessed with direct trains from North Wales to the capital Cardiff? The demand IS there, the trains are always busy in the morning and evening - what is the issue?

The issue is that while the trains may be busy, few of the passengers are going the full distance. And while the ideal solution would be direct trains to Cardiff and to Liverpool, Manchester etc, we all accept that there is no scope to achieve this...therefore the point people are making is that direct services from Holyhead to Liverpool and/or Manchester might benefit more people than direct services to Cardiff.