WAG Express discussion

[jones_bangor]

So why your obsession with the bloke on a railway forum?

Because he was everyday reality for Wales before devolution and our Assembly.

So not really "our" 175s, more "Angel Trains 175s"?

Legally, yes, you are correct.
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The mark2s used on Y Gerralt Gymro (two rakes of three I believe) are owned by Arriva (according to somebody on here actually Arriva Trains Wales itself, as opposed to the parent company). These mark2s are part of a larger fleet (all owned by ATW, or the parent company if the poster I refered to was wrong), the rest of which are in store so ATW's claim about events at the Millennium Stadium is a lie: You OWN mark2s ATW, when there is an event you should be using them.

It would be a real shame if the Mark 2s are dumped in storage when the exWSMR / Cargo D Mark 3s start in service in September.

 

[RobShipway]

It would be a real shame if the Mark 2s are dumped in storage when the exWSMR / Cargo D Mark 3s start in service in September.

I am sure that the MK2's will be brough back out of store when there is any special events on at the Millenium Stadium to enable Arriva to run Extra trains.

 

[IanXC]

I'm sure he would, but I believe First Class facilities are already available on that route already. Your assertion that this service was set up for one person is absolute nonsense.

Last time I checked it didnt come with a chef cooked 3 course meal though!

 

[RobShipway]

Last time I checked it didnt come with a chef cooked 3 course meal though!

My understanding is that there is more of a dolly trolly service on the train?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets not start the nonsense that somehow Wales has a disproportionate share of UK rolling stock resources again.

The population of Wales is roughly 5% of that of the UK theirs roughly 12000 carriages, LHCS/DMU/EMU/DEMU on the network so an "even share" based on population for Wales would be 600. ATW can muster about 250 including the stored Mk2's and these have to provide services in Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, Cheshire as well and they even run into Merseyside, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

Even If you include VT Voyagers, FGW HST, FGW 158's 150's and XC 170's that are in Wales at any one time - look at a tt and count the diagrams on the fingers of one hand- you still don't get near 600. There's probably only around 200 carriages in Wales at anyone time.

On a usage basis according to the latest ORR station footfall figures Welsh stations account for 2% of the total footfall. Equates to 240 carriages as 2% of 12000.

What our Northern posters chain of thought is when looked at against reality is that the ex NSE TOC's should be cascading North - and West!

 

[Rhydgaled]

I am sure that the MK2's will be brough back out of store when there is any special events on at the Millenium Stadium to enable Arriva to run Extra trains.

As I said in my previous post, despite ATW's claim that they use all the stock available to them for Millenium Stadium events they leave the stored mark2s in storage. Only the mark2s painted in Gerald livery (which I think number 6, as I have said) are used.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As I said in my previous post, despite ATW's claim that they use all the stock available to them for Millenium Stadium events they leave the stored mark2s in storage. Only the mark2s painted in Gerald livery (which I think number 6, as I have said) are used.

They bought outright I believe 22 MK2's in 2005.

 

[tbtc]

As I said in my previous post, despite ATW's claim that they use all the stock available to them for Millenium Stadium events they leave the stored mark2s in storage. Only the mark2s painted in Gerald livery (which I think number 6, as I have said) are used.

Are all the Mk2s fit/ safe/ decent?

 

[sprinterguy]

It would be a real shame if the Mark 2s are dumped in storage when the exWSMR / Cargo D Mark 3s start in service in September.

Why are you so obsessed with the idea that the ATW mark 3 stock will come from the ex-WSMR fleet? There's plenty of time before September for Wabtec Doncaster to convert the ex-DRS mark 3s that recently moved from Bletchley to powered door operation, which I view as more likely.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They bought outright I believe 22 MK2's in 2005.

That seems to tie-up, it was either 16 or 22 mark2s that Arriva purchased. As I said though, I think only a few were painted in Gerald livery and the Gerald livery ones are the only ones ATW ever use.
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Are all the Mk2s fit/ safe/ decent?

I expect they would have been fine at the time of purchase (2005, thanks Gareth Marston) for Arriva to want to buy them.

Why are you so obsessed with the idea that the ATW mark 3 stock will come from the ex-WSMR fleet? There's plenty of time before September for Wabtec Doncaster to convert the ex-DRS mark 3s that recently moved from Bletchley to powered door operation, which I view as more likely.

Are the ATW mark3s going to have power doors then??!!?!?!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are all the Mk2s fit/ safe/ decent?

as most of them have sat idle for 7 years I suspect not.

 

[sprinterguy]

That seems to tie-up, it was either 16 or 22 mark2s that Arriva purchased. As I said though, I think only a few were painted in Gerald livery and the Gerald livery ones are the only ones ATW ever use.

Yes you are absolutely correct: ATW have five BSOs, with two in Gerald livery, and I can count thirteen TSOs, four of which are in Gerald livery, which makes up the two three carriage sets for Gerald (Plus mark 3 restaurant vehicle of course). The rest remain in the older Arriva turquoise corporate livery.
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Are the ATW mark3s going to have power doors then??!!?!?!

You've got a point there actually, I don't know that they will If not, then it'll be even easier for Wabtec to refurbish them in time.

 

[tbtc]

As I said in my previous post, despite ATW's claim that they use all the stock available to them for Millenium Stadium events they leave the stored mark2s in storage

Are all the Mk2s fit/ safe/ decent?

I expect they would have been fine at the time of purchase (2005, thanks Gareth Marston) for Arriva to want to buy them

as most of them have sat idle for 7 years I suspect not.

Cheers.

So, to be fair to Arriva, if the Mk2s aren't "roadworthy" then they aren't really "available" for RugExes.

The cost of refurbishing stock for the sake of a handful of trips a year must be fairly high - maybe they are waiting on WAG3 so they can claim some more WAG subsidy to refurbish the stock?

 

[jones_bangor]

The cost of refurbishing stock for the sake of a handful of trips a year must be fairly high - maybe they are waiting on WAG3 so they can claim some more WAG subsidy to refurbish the stock?

WAG 3 - I'm all for it - Aberystwyth - Mach - Newtown - Welshpool - Shrewsbury - Hereford? - Newport & Cardiff Central.

 

[ainsworth74]

My understanding is that there is more of a dolly trolly service on the train?

One train per day (southbound in the morning, northbound in the evening) the so called WAG 1 has a full restaurant service on board included in the price of first class passengers tickets (and I believe hot food can be bought by standard class passengers but I'm not sure). You are correct that most North - South Wales services have a trolley service but that is not what is being discussed here.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

our 175s

You mean the ones that, on a typical Manchester-Cardiff run, spend most of the journey in England?

Damages the Welsh cause? What do you mean by that, that we're refusing to be subservient push-overs for our English masters?

No. What I mean is that the credibility of Wales as a independent country is damaged by (a) daft economic decisions, of which the air service is the worst example and (b) the prevalent petty 'us and them' mentality which leads many impartial observers to conclude that there is a national chip on the shoulder. Now as I said, my own opinions don't make any difference to the price of fish - but deterring potential investors with this combative attitude will make a huge difference to sources of income.

Lets not start the nonsense that somehow Wales has a disproportionate share of UK rolling stock resources again.

The population of Wales is roughly 5% of that of the UK theirs roughly 12000 carriages, LHCS/DMU/EMU/DEMU on the network so an "even share" based on population for Wales would be 600.

Fine - but of your 5% Welsh contingent, what proportion live in North Wales? And how many of that proportion have a need or desire to travel by train to London or South Wales? I don't wish to condemn anyone in Wales to substandard train travel, but having two Voyagers at a time working to Holyhead and back is barking, never mind the WAG Express!

 

[Rhydgaled]

So, to be fair to Arriva, if the Mk2s aren't "roadworthy" then they aren't really "available" for RugExes.

That's a good point actually. However, while they might be in need of refurbishment now, there are many events that result in unusually large passenger flows for ATW. Those would have kept the mark2s busy had they been used from the beginning. If that was the case, I doubt they would have been allowed to degrade to the extent that they'd need a refurb to be railworthy. From what I've read, special event trains where the reason for the orriginal purchase, shame they weren't used for that.

WAG 3 - I'm all for it - Aberystwyth - Mach - Newtown - Welshpool - Shrewsbury - Hereford? - Newport & Cardiff Central.

I wouldn't have a WAG express 3 as such, 1 morning and 1 evening in both directions between Holyhead and Cardiff is enough. If WAG would like to fund ATW to get the mark2s into regular (even more so than special events) use (and I hope they would), then I'd suggest putting them on Manchester - Swansea or Manchester - Llandudno franchise trains in 5 or 6 coach rakes. That would free up 175s for additional shorter-distance normal services.

 

[Penmorfa]

Fine - but of your 5% Welsh contingent, what proportion live in North Wales? And how many of that proportion have a need or desire to travel by train to London or South Wales? I don't wish to condemn anyone in Wales to substandard train travel, but having two Voyagers at a time working to Holyhead and back is barking, never mind the WAG Express!

Running a pair of Voyagers to Holyhead once a day was a commercial decision by Virgin Trains to counter overcrowding. Not a company renowned for being 'barking'. Between now and the end of September that extra capacity will be very welcome. Before you start dissecting our Inter City service let's see what the bidders for West Coast come up with. I would not be at all surprised to see more Euston trains from North Wales.

 

[jones_bangor]

No. What I mean is that the credibility of Wales as a independent country is damaged by (a) daft economic decisions, of which the air service is the worst example and (b) the prevalent petty 'us and them' mentality which leads many impartial observers to conclude that there is a national chip on the shoulder. Now as I said, my own opinions don't make any difference to the price of fish - but deterring potential investors with this combative attitude will make a huge difference to sources of income.

Wales is an instinctive left of centre country - England is intinctively right of centre. I'm afraid the differences will only become more profound over time. We will do things our way, and I'm afraid you will have to leave us to it.

Fine - but of your 5% Welsh contingent, what proportion live in North Wales? And how many of that proportion have a need or desire to travel by train to London or South Wales? I don't wish to condemn anyone in Wales to substandard train travel, but having two Voyagers at a time working to Holyhead and back is barking, never mind the WAG Express!

You know that the double Voyager is a off-peak anomaly, discussed at length previously.

 

[IanXC]

You are correct that most North - South Wales services have a trolley service but that is not what is being discussed here.

Robbies was replying to my point about the equivalent service from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on the devolved Scotrail franchise only having a trolley service!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Robbies was replying to my point about the equivalent service from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on the devolved Scotrail franchise only having a trolley service!

Scotrail might only provide a trolley between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, but aren't there three Intercity 125s daily from London operating over the route with 9 coaches (one being a buffet car) and two locomotives each? That's alot more than the WAG express, only 1 loco 4 coaches once a day each way.

 

[jones_bangor]

Scotrail might only provide a trolley between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, but aren't there three Intercity 125s daily from London operating over the route with 9 coaches (one being a buffet car) and two locomotives each? That's alot more than the WAG express, only 1 loco 4 coaches once a day each way.

Alex Salmond is only allowed to use ScotRail.

 

[tbtc]

Robbies was replying to my point about the equivalent service from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on the devolved Scotrail franchise only having a trolley service!

I should also point out (on a related note) that Aberdeen to Edinburgh services are still just the hourly service that they were before Devolution (only the stopping pattern in Fife has changed on certain services), I don't think that the handful of "through" services that run through Aberdeen to give a direct service to Aberdeenshire towns (Inverurie etc) has changed either.

Yet the capacity from Holyhead to Cardiff nowadays must be ten times greater than the service under Wales & West? (not including the flights between Anglesey and Cardiff which also cater to the growing market in north-south passengers...)

There can't be many routes in the UK that have had a tenfold increase in capacity in recent years.
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Scotrail might only provide a trolley between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, but aren't there three Intercity 125s daily from London operating over the route with 9 coaches (one being a buffet car) and two locomotives each? That's alot more than the WAG express, only 1 loco 4 coaches once a day each way.

The East Coast provision to Aberdeen hasn't changed since the British Rail days, so there's been no additional services due to devolution, and no Restaurant Cars added to services which previously lacked such facilities.

Odd, considering the size of the Scottish Parliament, you'd have expected a massive increase in services, if the Welsh example is anything to go by...

 

[Rhydgaled]

I should also point out (on a related note) that Aberdeen to Edinburgh services are still just the hourly service that they were before Devolution ...

Yet the capacity from Holyhead to Cardiff nowadays must be ten times greater than the service under Wales & West? ...

There can't be many routes in the UK that have had a tenfold increase in capacity in recent years.

An interesting point. What was the frequency on the various sections (as follows) before ATW introduced the Holyhead - Cardiff 2-hourly service, and to where were the trains that made up that frequency routed?

• Holyhead - Chester
• Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
• Shrewsbury - Crewe
• Shrewsbury - Newport/Cardiff

What alternative services could be achived using the current number of units used to provide the 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyheads if they were withdrawn?
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The East Coast provision to Aberdeen hasn't changed since the British Rail days, so there's been no additional services due to devolution, and no Restaurant Cars added to services which previously lacked such facilities.

Odd, considering the size of the Scottish Parliament, you'd have expected a massive increase in services, if the Welsh example is anything to go by...

Maybe the improvment in on-board facilities in Wales is BECAUSE there wasn't such a service previously, perhaps Scotland didn't need to improve those services because they already had Intercity 125s on that route.

I obviously support the WAG express, but do feel a 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service is less important for north Wales than a 2-hourly Holyhead - Manchester would be.

 

[tbtc]

An interesting point. What was the frequency on the various sections (as follows) before ATW introduced the Holyhead - Cardiff 2-hourly service, and to where were the trains that made up that frequency routed?

• Holyhead - Chester
• Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
• Shrewsbury - Crewe
• Shrewsbury - Newport/Cardiff

What alternative services could be achived using the current number of units used to provide the 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyheads if they were withdrawn?

From memory the Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury service was a bi-hourly Central Trains route to Lincolnshire via Birmingham.

I think that the core service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury was just the hourly service to Manchester (before it started serving west wales too). However I think there was a peak extra from Cardiff to Abergavenny (now extended north as part of a longer service). There was some Liverpool - Cardiff service too (which may have been at the expense of some Manchester trips?).

However you have to remember that back then there were regular Wales & West services ran services down the Marches line to Bristol (and beyond) - the loss of regular service from Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol looks like a reasonable market that has been lost to find stock that can run Holyhead - Cardiff trains.

On the north wales coast there were through trains from Holyhead/ Bangor to Manchester (now replaced with Cardiff trips). I'm sure our local correspondents will remember things better.

So, all in all, a few links have been lost to find the resources for all of the extra Holyhead - Cardiff trains.
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Maybe the improvment in on-board facilities in Wales is BECAUSE there wasn't such a service previously, perhaps Scotland didn't need to improve those services because they already had Intercity 125s on that route

Fair point, but having one First Class service a day (with a Restaurant) on a TOC which offers no other First Class trains (and nothing more than a trolley on other services) does seem a bit "fur coat and no knickers" (as we say north of the border).

 

[ainsworth74]

Robbies was replying to my point about the equivalent service from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on the devolved Scotrail franchise only having a trolley service!

My apologies.

 

[jones_bangor]

From memory the Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury service was a bi-hourly Central Trains route to Lincolnshire via Birmingham.

I think that the core service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury was just the hourly service to Manchester (before it started serving west wales too). However I think there was a peak extra from Cardiff to Abergavenny (now extended north as part of a longer service). There was some Liverpool - Cardiff service too (which may have been at the expense of some Manchester trips?).

However you have to remember that back then there were regular Wales & West services ran services down the Marches line to Bristol (and beyond) - the loss of regular service from Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol looks like a reasonable market that has been lost to find stock that can run Holyhead - Cardiff trains.

On the north wales coast there were through trains from Holyhead/ Bangor to Manchester (now replaced with Cardiff trips). I'm sure our local correspondents will remember things better.

So, all in all, a few links have been lost to find the resources for all of the extra Holyhead - Cardiff trains.

The links haven't been lost, just the direct trains. I think most people can work out where to change.

 

[tbtc]

The links haven't been lost, just the direct trains. I think most people can work out where to change.

I think that most people in Bangor could have worked out where to change for Cardiff (without needing ten times as much capacity in direct trains).

Yet again, its okay for other people to change as long as you get your direct service?

For me, the direct services should be the ones with the biggest passenger flows - and I think that a direct train from western English towns like Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol would be a fairly busy service, just like a service from Liverpool to north wales.

 

[jones_bangor]

Yet again, its okay for other people to change as long as you get your direct service?

For me, the direct services should be the ones with the biggest passenger flows - and I think that a direct train from western English towns like Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol would be a fairly busy service, just like a service from Liverpool to north wales.

Actually, I don't have a problem with changing. You're the one making a big issue about it.

I think it would be more appropriate for First Great Western to operate the service (Shrewsbury - Bristol).

I'm not clear what route a North Wales - Liverpool service could take? Are ATW stock allowed on third rail lines etc? I agree a Rhyl - Liverpool local would be particularly popular.

 

[Michael.Y]

Are ATW stock allowed on third rail lines etc?

No, because they are separate and self-contained, they are apart from the National Rail network.