WAG Express discussion

[emoaconr]

... especially as (bordering Shropshire anyway) few Welsh people speak Welsh

Whilst I am not a Welsh nationalist and oppose any move towards independence, I think a lot of people (particulary in Gwynedd and Dyfed!) would disagree with that statement.

As a whole, it is estimated that 20-23% accross Wales use Welsh as their daily first-choice language. As you have indicated, in places such as Powys that number is far (and always has been) much lower. In reverse, you will find areas such as Gwynedd and Anglesey where 60-70% of residents use Welsh as their daily language.

I disbelieve that Welsh identity is tied to the Welsh language, although I took the decision to learn Welsh after going through English-medium education in Wrexham and I actually now teach Welsh at secondary level (note that Welsh must be studied at either First or Second-language level by all students in Wales up to the age of 16). I must point out there is a clear distinction between Welsh identity and Welsh nationalism. If anyone asked for my nationality, I would automatically say 'British' before 'Welsh', but it doesn't mean to say I do not wish to hold a Welsh identity or am not content with living here.

I don't believe in saying I'm proud to be a certain nationality because for me, pride is based on your achievements - not the luck of the draw when you were born based on invisible make-believe lines forged from ancient bloody battles. For instance, I wouldn't say I was proud to have brown hair, or male (which would make me sexist), or white (which would make me racist). I accept my nationality - but its not something I conciously think about. I'm me and that's it.

How this applies to Arriva, I do not know :P But all I can say is I depend on the North-South Wales links. Us in the North have historically moaned about the south and poor transport there. I'd never been to South Wales in my life before I chose to go to University there. But I would agree 100% that there is a need for North-South Wales railway links - not as a matter of Welsh unity - but because it opens up something that has not particulary been available to us before now - and come the age of devolution, of political importance also.

 

[paul1609]

To be honest as an outsider who has travelled extensively in Wales and who has served with a lot of welsh people in the armed forces the 20 to 23 % sounds awfully high to me. Its taken me 20 years to serve with someone who has welsh as their first language which puts it on about a par with scots speaking gaelic.
Some of the most populated areas of wales appear to me to have no welsh speakers at all.

 

[jones_bangor]

This is the point that some struggle to see...

If ATW is the TOC with the biggest subsidy required per passenger, and they are diverting resources to the WAG Express then is it not right that questions are asked?

It was a simple question - are you saying that there's more demand for Bangor - Cardiff than Bangor - Manchester? On the mornings of Six Nations games at the Millennium Stadium then I reckon Cardiff would win that argument. But on the other 99% of days?

Yes, you could change to get to Manchester, but you could always change to get to Cardiff in the past (e.g. at Crewe). Just answer the question

You can tell that people are losing an argument when they start getting personal

ATW are not "directing resources" to the Premier service - it's a funded out of franchise service paid for Welsh Government.

You're question was simple (simplistic?). There's already an hourly service from North Wales (Llandudno) to Manchester. I don't believe that there's sufficient additional demand from Bangor and Holyhead to warrant a more frequent service.

Cardiff is now the administrative capital of Wales for devolved functions - people need to get there from North Wales for government to function.

All this palava in having direct services (rail and... even more ridiculously: air!) from north to south Wales is also a bemusement. It's clearly only to masseur the egos of nationalist Welsh politicians and has almost sod all economic merit. It is a vanity project, though I do like the WAG trains - but rather than having both go south in the morning, they should be run in "opposite directions" if you get my drift. But that wouldn't then suit the Welsh Assembly members..

I agree the service primarily exists for the benefit of the public sector, which does seem to be the only growth sector in Wales - there'll be even more need for transporting public officials around Wales if the judiciary is devolved (I believe this is the next phase).

I agree with your view on the need for the service to be a mirror service.

To be honest as an outsider who has travelled extensively in Wales and who has served with a lot of welsh people in the armed forces the 20 to 23 % sounds awfully high to me. Its taken me 20 years to serve with someone who has welsh as their first language which puts it on about a par with scots speaking gaelic.
Some of the most populated areas of wales appear to me to have no welsh speakers at all.

It is that high, but mainly in West Wales. There are more Welsh speakers in the southern half of Wales than the north.

 

[the sniper]

To be honest as an outsider who has travelled extensively in Wales and who has served with a lot of welsh people in the armed forces the 20 to 23 % sounds awfully high to me. Its taken me 20 years to serve with someone who has welsh as their first language which puts it on about a par with scots speaking gaelic.
Some of the most populated areas of wales appear to me to have no welsh speakers at all.

I can believe it. I spend a fair amount of time in Gwynedd, North Wales. Everywhere you go, the locals almost wholly converse in Welsh. It's particularly noticeable in Supermarkets like the Tesco in Porthmadog where everyone is speaking Welsh. The only people speaking English are the English! It's largely the same in the places I been in mid Wales too. I never used to be like this though.

Obviously there's a larger population in South Wales, but with the seemingly very high percentage of Welsh speakers elsewhere in Wales, I believe they could make up 20%.

 

[Rhydgaled]

rather than having both go south in the morning, they should be run in "opposite directions"

Agree with you there, I was very disapointed that WAG2 wasn't run in the 'opposite direction' to WAG1.

ATW are not "directing resources" to the Premier service - it's a funded out of franchise service paid for Welsh Government.

Yes, but WAG 2 currently directs resources (a 175) away from franchise services.

You're question was simple (simplistic?). There's already an hourly service from North Wales (Llandudno) to Manchester. I don't believe that there's sufficient additional demand from Bangor and Holyhead to warrant a more frequent service.

Bangor and Holyhead not warranting both a 2-hourly Manchester/Crewe service AND the current 2-hourly Holyhead - Cardiff and Holyhead - Birmingham services is one reason why I wouldn't mind the 2-hourly Cardiff-Holyhead being scrapped so a Holyhead - Manchester service (connecting with a Chester - Wrexham - Cardiff service (possibly starting from Crewe or Manchester)) can be run instead, but there probablly isn't enough rolling stock for that.

There should be 2 or 3 express services each way daily from north Wales to Cardiff on top of that though.

 

[tbtc]

ATW are not "directing resources" to the Premier service - it's a funded out of franchise service paid for Welsh Government

Yes, but WAG 2 currently directs resources (a 175) away from franchise services

Exactly - WAG2 has meant one of the best trains in the franchise is diverted away from other routes

You're question was simple (simplistic?). There's already an hourly service from North Wales (Llandudno) to Manchester. I don't believe that there's sufficient additional demand from Bangor and Holyhead to warrant a more frequent service

It was a simple question yet you failed to answer it. Twice

Would a Bangor - Manchester service be busier than a Bangor - Cardiff service?

Yes, you could change at Llandudno Junction/ Chester to get to Manchester, but then you could change at Crewe to get to Cardiff. Which direct service would attract more passengers at Bangor though?

Cardiff is now the administrative capital of Wales for devolved functions - people need to get there from North Wales for government to function

Its funny how the Scottish Parliament has been running for many years but there are currently no direct train services linking Edinburgh to/from Stranraer/ Dumfries/ Kilmarnock/ Ayr/ Paisley/ Greenock/ East Kilbride/ Hamilton/ Oban etc (and the only Fort William service is the portion of the London sleeper that runs via Edinburgh).

Strange. How does the Scottish Parliament function without direct trains from every corner of Scotland to Edinburgh?

 

[jones_bangor]

It was a simple question yet you failed to answer it. Twice

Would a Bangor - Manchester service be busier than a Bangor - Cardiff service?

Yes, you could change at Llandudno Junction/ Chester to get to Manchester, but then you could change at Crewe to get to Cardiff. Which direct service would attract more passengers at Bangor though?

Well, given that there's lots of people needing to go to Cardiff for the public services work (NHS, local authorities etc), I suspect that is the most important service. You have to remember that a Manchester train wouldn't have many passengers east of Conwy as it would be competing with the Llandudno train.

Its funny how the Scottish Parliament has been running for many years but there are currently no direct train services linking Edinburgh to/from Stranraer/ Dumfries/ Kilmarnock/ Ayr/ Paisley/ Greenock/ East Kilbride/ Hamilton/ Oban etc (and the only Fort William service is the portion of the London sleeper that runs via Edinburgh).

Strange. How does the Scottish Parliament function without direct trains from every corner of Scotland to Edinburgh?

But you're talking of much more remote areas there - more akin to asking why there isn't a direct train to Cardiff from Pwllheli and Builth Road every morning.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I must point out there is a clear distinction between Welsh identity and Welsh nationalism. If anyone asked for my nationality, I would automatically say 'British' before 'Welsh', but it doesn't mean to say I do not wish to hold a Welsh identity or am not content with living here.

I don't believe in saying I'm proud to be a certain nationality because for me, pride is based on your achievements - not the luck of the draw when you were born based on invisible make-believe lines forged from ancient bloody battles. For instance, I wouldn't say I was proud to have brown hair, or male (which would make me sexist), or white (which would make me racist). I accept my nationality - but its not something I conciously think about. I'm me and that's it.

There's nothing wrong with having Welsh identity and being proud of Wales, etc, that's fine... that's patriotism... it's the (political / racial) nationalism I don't like. And I don't want these nationalists cutting up our united kingdom - I find it hard to imagine the Shropshire-Powys border being an international one!! The Salopians like the Welsh and have frequent dealings with Welsh people etc and close links to Welsh towns and businesses and so on... and this is done without any issue as the Welsh are not regarded as being different to the English. The danger of the nationalist approach (perhaps they mean this to be so) is to create a "them and us" mentality. Wales and England may be different nations, but there's no reason why we have to be separated in any way.

As for the language: looking at maps of % of people who speak Welsh by community, the communities surrounding Shropshire are not particularly Welsh-speaking at all. Saying that, we also have some Welsh speakers within Shropshire (up around Oswestry for instance). I only raise it as it adds to the blurring of the border between Shropshire and Wales, which is only noticed by the Welsh road signage and writing, as well as "Welcome to Wales" signs, though they're not on all roads leading into Wales - there are countless minor roads that criss-cross the border without any such signs.

A final comment I'll make on identity, etc, is that I find it perfectly complimentary for a person to hold both Welsh or English AND British identities/nationalities. I describe myself as being English and British. It's a shame that people are rejecting Britishness out of hand entirely - I even know a few people who say they're only English and not British, which frankly is just ridiculous. How can you be English or Welsh and not be British?!

 

[D1009]

But you're talking of much more remote areas there - more akin to asking why there isn't a direct train to Cardiff from Pwllheli and Builth Road every morning.

Actually there is a through train from Builth Road to Cardiff every morning.

 

[jones_bangor]

Actually there is a through train from Builth Road to Cardiff every morning.

I apologise - there is - via Swansea?

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Two of the now ex-WAG Express Class 57s (313 and 316) are on their way from Shrewsbury to Crewe right now - any idea what their eventual destination/usage will be? And have the other two 57s already headed north?

 

[D1009]

I apologise - there is - via Swansea?

Yep, 0701 from Builth Road arriving Cardiff 1020 calling at all stations as far as Bridgend. I'd be interested to know how many people travel through from the Heart of Wales line to Cardiff on it. Perhaps the WAG Express should go that way !

 

[tbtc]

Well, given that there's lots of people needing to go to Cardiff for the public services work (NHS, local authorities etc), I suspect that is the most important service. You have to remember that a Manchester train wouldn't have many passengers east of Conwy as it would be competing with the Llandudno train

I'm just talking about passengers from Bangor, but thanks for confirming that you think that there would be more people wanting to travel to Cardiff than there would to Manchester.

I didn't realise the NHS had quite so much beaurocracy...

But you're talking of much more remote areas there - more akin to asking why there isn't a direct train to Cardiff from Pwllheli and Builth Road every morning.

• Bangor (pop 20,000) to Cardiff is a 190 mile drive (roughly speaking)
  
• Ayr (pop 45,000) to Edinburgh is an 85 mile drive
• Stranraer (pop 11,000) to Edinburgh is a 135 mile drive
• Oban (pop 8,000) to Edinburgh is a 130 mile drive
• Greenock (pop 45,000) to Edinburgh is a 75 mile drive

...so none of them are that "remote" (geographically), and a lot closer to Bangor's size than your reference to Builth Road (a couple of thousand people?).

I don't know how the NHS Managers and Civil Servants of Scotland manage to keep a functioning democracy together since they have to change trains...

 

[Gareth Marston]

A few weeks ago I sat next to a pile of NHS staff from the Colwyn Bay area by their conversation who got on a northbound 2 hrly CDF-HHD at Cwmbran - they reckoned the meeting could have been done by video conferencing and the people that should have attended form West Wales didn't turn up.

Does this demonstrate "demand " or not? Having worked in the third and pubic sector I can say I have often been to meetings whose justification for the travel involved can sometimes be tenuous.

 

[Michael.Y]

Two of the now ex-WAG Express Class 57s (313 and 316) are on their way from Shrewsbury to Crewe right now - any idea what their eventual destination/usage will be? And have the other two 57s already headed north?

They're going back home to Virgin to be Thunderbirds again I believe - they were only ever on extended loan anyway.

EDIT: Incidentally, my tormentor from the other night, 158823, sailed past me in Newport as I finished my shift tonight.

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm just talking about passengers from Bangor, but thanks for confirming that you think that there would be more people wanting to travel to Cardiff than there would to Manchester.

I didn't realise the NHS had quite so much beaurocracy...

• Bangor (pop 20,000) to Cardiff is a 190 mile drive (roughly speaking)
  
• Ayr (pop 45,000) to Edinburgh is an 85 mile drive
• Stranraer (pop 11,000) to Edinburgh is a 135 mile drive
• Oban (pop 8,000) to Edinburgh is a 130 mile drive
• Greenock (pop 45,000) to Edinburgh is a 75 mile drive

...so none of them are that "remote" (geographically), and a lot closer to Bangor's size than your reference to Builth Road (a couple of thousand people?).

I don't know how the NHS Managers and Civil Servants of Scotland manage to keep a functioning democracy together since they have to change trains...

So you suggest that people drive from Bangor to Cardiff?

I think you miss the point of the service....you can travel to one administrative capital (London) at InterCity standard, why should not people travel to the other (Cardiff) in a service of equivalent standard.

Or do you think the Cardiff administration is second class?

There's nothing wrong with having Welsh identity and being proud of Wales, etc, that's fine... that's patriotism... it's the (political / racial) nationalism I don't like. And I don't want these nationalists cutting up our united kingdom -!

I'm afraid that an United Kingdom must be an equal kingdom to survive. The Tories are doing a very good job of perpetuating regional poverty and seem intent on consolidating that through regional pay. The nationalists in Wales and Scotland won't need to do much, Gideon is doing the leg work for them. Divide and rule (or try to), always the Tory rule.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Or do you think the Cardiff administration is second class?

There's not much scope for personal judgment about this, is there? Like it or not, an Assembly is a lesser beast than a Parliament. London is the capital of the United Kingdom, which is the country stated in all our passports.

And the reason there are InterCity trains from North Wales to London is nothing to do with serving the people of Bangor or Holyhead etc, it's to cater for travellers between the two international capitals of Dublin and London. The fact that most people travelling between the two these days will fly or drive is simply proof that some rail timetables are still stuck in the 1960s. It is sheer lunacy to send a pair of Voyagers to Holyhead and back (as happens on various VT services) - all those seats, and the performance of those trains, would be far better used elsewhere. Most of the people who travel as foot passengers on the ferry wouldn't be put off using the train from Holyhead if they had to change at Crewe onto a WCML express to London.

The point of the above is that rather than getting Intercity trains from Holyhead to Cardiff as well as London, I would suggest there should be neither!

 

[jones_bangor]

There's not much scope for personal judgment about this, is there? Like it or not, an Assembly is a lesser beast than a Parliament. London is the capital of the United Kingdom, which is the country stated in all our passports.

And the reason there are InterCity trains from North Wales to London is nothing to do with serving the people of Bangor or Holyhead etc, it's to cater for travellers between the two international capitals of Dublin and London. The fact that most people travelling between the two these days will fly or drive is simply proof that some rail timetables are still stuck in the 1960s. It is sheer lunacy to send a pair of Voyagers to Holyhead and back (as happens on various VT services) - all those seats, and the performance of those trains, would be far better used elsewhere. Most of the people who travel as foot passengers on the ferry wouldn't be put off using the train from Holyhead if they had to change at Crewe onto a WCML express to London.

The point of the above is that rather than getting Intercity trains from Holyhead to Cardiff as well as London, I would suggest there should be neither!

Your view. I completely disagree with your take on this. The Assembly is now a law making institution, devolution is an ongoing process that most people in Wales want.

Clearly your view of Wales is that of some country (do you even believe we are a nation?) that is second class, and deserves no better.

The Dublin link is important, and despite what you say, will continue to be so. If the market is so small and only exists for Holyhead - London, strange though that some Virgin trains terminate at Bangor isn't it? But I'm sure you have a more deserving route in England in mind...........

 

[tbtc]

But you're talking of much more remote areas there

So you suggest that people drive from Bangor to Cardiff?

I'm trying to explain to you that the Scottish Parliament seems to survive okay (and pass laws and have tax raising powers etc) without a direct train from places like Ayrshire to Edinburgh.

Since you claimed that places like Ayr were "more remote" than north wales, I thought one way to explain the evidence to you would be to get a mileage figure - the easiest way to do so being Google Maps.

Having an effective legislature is obviously nothing to do with train services.

I think you miss the point of the service....you can travel to one administrative capital (London) at InterCity standard, why should not people travel to the other (Cardiff) in a service of equivalent standard

...yet you can't travel from Bangor to Liverpool or Manchester?

Plenty of places in Scotland (much bigger than Bangor) lack a direct service to Edinburgh, which kind of messes up your claim that the Welsh Assembly needs direct trains from Bangor in order to function.

Or do you think the Cardiff administration is second class?

Clearly your view of Wales is that of some country (do you even believe we are a nation?) that is second class, and deserves no better

I don't know why the only way you can justify the subsidised train services from Anglesey to Cardiff (as well as the flights) is to accuse anyone who thinks they are a waste of money of being anti-Welsh...

A few years ago there was a daily service from Anglesey to Cardiff (under BR, under Wales & West). Then that was increased to a regular service every two hours. Then a daily flight. Then an additional service (WAG1). Then a further service (WAG2). But if anyone dares criticise the situation then you accuse them of having an anti-Welsh agenda?

I don't care about your politics, I just care about efficient use of railway resources (e.g. running services to where people want to travel - in the case of Anglesey that would include Manchester/ Liverpool trains).

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm trying to explain to you that the Scottish Parliament seems to survive okay (and pass laws and have tax raising powers etc) without a direct train from places like Ayrshire to Edinburgh.

Since you claimed that places like Ayr were "more remote" than north wales, I thought one way to explain the evidence to you would be to get a mileage figure - the easiest way to do so being Google Maps.

Having an effective legislature is obviously nothing to do with train services.

It's more than an effective legislature, it's an effective country. It takes 4-5 hours to drive from North to South in Wales, if a train can do it in under 3 - 4 then there's a clear advantage.

...yet you can't travel from Bangor to Liverpool or Manchester?

Plenty of places in Scotland (much bigger than Bangor) lack a direct service to Edinburgh, which kind of messes up your claim that the Welsh Assembly needs direct trains from Bangor in order to function.

Hang on, this isn't just about Bangor, we're talking about North Wales (soon to include Wrexham) to Cardiff here....

There's already an hourly service from Llandudno to Manchester......what's your point? For Liverpool, you change at Chester on to the electric stock.....

I don't know why the only way you can justify the subsidised train services from Anglesey to Cardiff (as well as the flights) is to accuse anyone who thinks they are a waste of money of being anti-Welsh...

A few years ago there was a daily service from Anglesey to Cardiff (under BR, under Wales & West). Then that was increased to a regular service every two hours. Then a daily flight. Then an additional service (WAG1). Then a further service (WAG2). But if anyone dares criticise the situation then you accuse them of having an anti-Welsh agenda?

I don't care about your politics, I just care about efficient use of railway resources (e.g. running services to where people want to travel - in the case of Anglesey that would include Manchester/ Liverpool trains).

All train services in the UK are effectively subsidised as you well know.

Firstly, it's up to the Welsh Government to decide how they use their resources to enhance train services in Wales as they're democratically elected. The One Wales agreement set that up (Plaid / Lab coalition). Labour chose to keep the services going in their recent Wales Transport Plan review.

Maybe when there was no Assembly, one train a day was adequate - it is no more! And remember that the majority of the North - South trains aren't "express" services and are really rather slow services stopping at all or most stations.

I don't need to accuse anyone of being anti-Welsh as you suggest, but I think you're instinctively anti devolution - you're being far too sensitive as I think you know your agenda is so flawed.

AS I use the services regularly from Cardiff to Bangor, I see that they're always busy throughout (not emptying at Crewe or Chester). The demand is there - no question.

PS I've never said I supported the air services - but I've tried to clarify why I thought they were retained.

 

[tbtc]

For Liverpool, you change at Chester on to the electric stock.....

This is one of the flaws in your argument - you like to point out that connections are available for Liverpool and Manchester for those who change from north wales trains at Chester, yet you insist that the Cardiff services *have* to be direct trains (despite adequate changes available at Crewe for those who are making the trip from one end of wales to the other).

How come changing is good enough for some but not for you?

All train services in the UK are effectively subsidised as you well know

Are they?

Some TOCs run profitably and pay a premium back to the Government. Some individual services in other TOCs are profitable (although the overall TOC requires some subsidy). Yet some TOCs are loss making, and Wales & Borders require the largest subsidy (per passenger mile) of any train company.

If there was that much demand for a WAG Express then how come it needs subsidy? Not like the train stock is brand new.

I don't need to accuse anyone of being anti-Welsh as you suggest, but I think you're instinctively anti devolution - you're being far too sensitive as I think you know your agenda is so flawed

Thanks for trying to analyse me

FWIW I voted Yes/Yes in the 1997 Devolution Referendum (back when I lived in Scotland), I do understand Devolution. But Scotland just gets on with running its Parliament, passing laws etc, without the need to link every corner of Scotland to Edinburgh by subsidised train.

Having a functioning legislature doesn't require a WAG Express (or a Scottish equivalent).

I think Alex Salmond would be laughed out of the country if he was vain enough to subsidise a restaurant car to take him between Holyrood and Aberdeenshire.

 

[paul1609]

This is one of the flaws in your argument - you like to point out that connections are available for Liverpool and Manchester for those who change from north wales trains at Chester, yet you insist that the Cardiff services *have* to be direct trains (despite adequate changes available at Crewe for those who are making the trip from one end of wales to the other).

How come changing is good enough for some but not for you?



Are they?

Some TOCs run profitably and pay a premium back to the Government. Some individual services in other TOCs are profitable (although the overall TOC requires some subsidy). Yet some TOCs are loss making, and Wales & Borders require the largest subsidy (per passenger mile) of any train company.


.

No TOC actually makes a profit now if you take in to account track access grants. FCC did briefly last year but due to cap and collar support no longer does:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-business-plan-indicators-input-01/

 

[jones_bangor]

This is one of the flaws in your argument - you like to point out that connections are available for Liverpool and Manchester for those who change from north wales trains at Chester, yet you insist that the Cardiff services *have* to be direct trains (despite adequate changes available at Crewe for those who are making the trip from one end of wales to the other).

How come changing is good enough for some but not for you?

Well we can't all have direct trains, maybe Arriva should alternate Llandudno / Holyhead - Manchester / Cardiff - I don't see changing as a hassle at all, and I think in terms of practicalities, Holyhead - Cardiff is a 2 -part service with a crew change and reversal at Chester. It's just that the passengers are lucky enough to stay on.

I think Alex Salmond would be laughed out of the country if he was vain enough to subsidise a restaurant car to take him between Holyrood and Aberdeenshire.

I'm sure he would, but I believe First Class facilities are already available on that route already. Your assertion that this service was set up for one person is absolute nonsense.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Public/ third sector workers from Eastern Mid Wales traveling to Cardiff continue to change at Shrewsbury or drive to Shrewsbury/Craven Arms. - as some of my colleagues do. I can occupy my time in Shrewsbury but its not always the Womens cup of tea looking at freights on the Abbey Curve in a two hour gap for a Cambrian train!

Folk from further west drive -no one has seriously suggested that Mid Wales needs through trains to Cardiff.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Clearly your view of Wales is that of some country (do you even believe we are a nation?) that is second class, and deserves no better.

I never suggested that, and anyway, my views aren't important - what is important is making best use of the limited money/rolling stock etc available, by putting the fast and high capacity trains on routes with the strongest demand.

strange though that some Virgin trains terminate at Bangor isn't it?

I have a funny feeling this is more to do with getting the Voyager back to Chester in time for its next run to London, rather than a result of a careful survey of how many people actually want to travel from Bangor vs Holyhead.

But I'm sure you have a more deserving route in England in mind...........

With all due respect, it's this tendency to reduce everything to a battle of Wales against the cruel world which does most to damage the cause of Wales and its people. I do have more deserving routes in mind for InterCity trains (Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-York/Hull, for instance). These large cities and their large numbers of business travellers happen to be in England, and the slow journeys on crowded TPE stock effectively encourages many of these travellers onto the roads. It is not my fault, or your fault, or anyone's fault, that these cities are larger and have more travellers than the towns and single city in North Wales. It's just a fact of life, and trying to deny or ignore the facts damages the Welsh cause.

So does the air service, which I agree with you is an appalling waste of money. Unfortunately, squandering money on this kind of thing (of which the WAG express is a lesser example) does raise questions in many people's minds about the judgment of the Welsh Assembly.

I think Alex Salmond would be laughed out of the country if he was vain enough to subsidise a restaurant car to take him between Holyrood and Aberdeenshire.

Very true - but only because of the trams fiasco. Without the tram issue, I wonder whether the Scots might have considered copying the Welsh example.

 

[jones_bangor]

I do have more deserving routes in mind for InterCity trains (Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-York/Hull, for instance). These large cities and their large numbers of business travellers happen to be in England, and the slow journeys on crowded TPE stock effectively encourages many of these travellers onto the roads. It is not my fault, or your fault, or anyone's fault, that these cities are larger and have more travellers than the towns and single city in North Wales. It's just a fact of life, and trying to deny or ignore the facts damages the Welsh cause.

You answered my question as I suspected. Take from Wales and give to England. If there were no Welsh Assembly, I suspect we'd have lost our 175s to bolster TPE or some other deserving route in England already*. These would probably have been replaced with some worn our rubbish in exchange.

* e.g. Let's imagine Governor General Redwood's take on this.

Damages the Welsh cause? What do you mean by that, that we're refusing to be subservient push-overs for our English masters? And how dare we have the temerity to run 2 extra trains a day between North Wales and the capital Cardiff.

 

[tbtc]

Take from Wales and give to England. If there were no Welsh Assembly, I suspect we'd have lost our 175s to bolster TPE or some other deserving route in England already*

You are aware that the 175s were introduced by First North Western, mainly to run their routes from Manchester to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool etc?

I must have missed the part when they were paid for by the Welsh Assembly

* e.g. Let's imagine Governor General Redwood's take on this.

You seem fond of referring to John Redwood. Wasn't he Secretary of State though?

 

[jones_bangor]

You are aware that the 175s were introduced by First North Western, mainly to run their routes from Manchester to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool etc?

I must have missed the part when they were paid for by the Welsh Assembly

I don't think anyone paid for them except for the leasing company that purchased them - they are leased stock (like most other stock).

Though I understand that the WG Premier stock will be owned by Arriva / DB, but hauled by leased locomotives.
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You seem fond of referring to John Redwood. Wasn't he Secretary of State though?

That was his official title, yes.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think anyone paid for them except for the leasing company that purchased them - they are leased stock (like most other stock)

So not really "our" 175s, more "Angel Trains 175s"?

That was his official title, yes.

So why your obsession with the bloke on a railway forum?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Though I understand that the WG Premier stock will be owned by Arriva / DB, but hauled by leased locomotives.

The mark2s used on Y Gerralt Gymro (two rakes of three I believe) are owned by Arriva (according to somebody on here actually Arriva Trains Wales itself, as opposed to the parent company). These mark2s are part of a larger fleet (all owned by ATW, or the parent company if the poster I refered to was wrong), the rest of which are in store so ATW's claim about events at the Millennium Stadium is a lie:

For each major event at the Stadium we use all the trains we have available to us.

You OWN mark2s ATW, when there is an event you should be using them.