WAG Express discussion

[sprinterguy]

Further to my earlier information that the Wrexham-routed 67+DVT operation is to commence in December, I have now heard from another source that it will actually be at the September timetable change, and will involve Mark3 refurbished coaching stock.

We wait with baited breath.

Some of the former DRS mark 3s, which have been owned by DB and stored at Bletchley for a while now, have been moved up to Wabtec Doncaster today...

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm sure a handful do, yes

I can assure you it is much more than a handful!! Ever been to Bangor?

I know your plans for a North - South service would involve a 153!
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Some of the former DRS mark 3s, which have been owned by DB and stored at Bletchley for a while now, have been moved up to Wabtec Doncaster today...

Are the DRS Mark 3s push-pull wired?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Further to my earlier information that the Wrexham-routed 67+DVT operation is to commence in December, I have now heard from another source that it will actually be at the September timetable change, and will involve Mark3 refurbished coaching stock.

.

I'd say September is realistic, given that the ex-WSMR Cargo-D stock is available, and that crew training is the major issue now.

 

[tbtc]

I can assure you it is much more than a handful!! Ever been to Bangor?

Been a few times (and along the coast).

I don't remember seeing any Cardiff City shirts in the shops, alongside all the Liverpool/ Manchester United ones, given the importance that you think Cardiff has to the people of Bangor.

But then Cardiff has almost an hourly service from Bangor - remind ne how many Liverpool/ Manchester services does Bangor has?

 

[Michael.Y]

Been a few times (and along the coast).

I don't remember seeing any Cardiff City shirts in the shops, alongside all the Liverpool/ Manchester United ones, given the importance that you think Cardiff has to the people of Bangor.

But then Cardiff has almost an hourly service from Bangor - remind ne how many Liverpool/ Manchester services does Bangor has?

:roll:

Bangor is a student town. A lot of students travel from Bangor to south Wales.

Judging a town's importance on its football fanbase is a pretty poor attempt at proving an already weak point.

 

[jones_bangor]

Been a few times (and along the coast).

I don't remember seeing any Cardiff City shirts in the shops, alongside all the Liverpool/ Manchester United ones, given the importance that you think Cardiff has to the people of Bangor.

But then Cardiff has almost an hourly service from Bangor - remind ne how many Liverpool/ Manchester services does Bangor has?

Cardiff has more / equal importance to the people of Bangor since devolution, but I think that's a process you don't grasp or believe in.

 

[tbtc]

:roll:

Bangor is a student town. A lot of students travel from Bangor to south Wales.

Judging a town's importance on its football fanbase is a pretty poor attempt at proving an already weak point.

Since I didn't have time to do a questionnaire of Bangor, and we apparently aren't allowed to use people's accents as evidence (?) I thought it was an indication that Manchester and Liverpool are more important to Bangor (and north Wales) than Cardiff is.

Seriously, if there was a train from Bangor to Manchester, a train from Bangor to Liverpool and a train from Bangor to Cardiff are you saying that the Cardiff train would be busier? If it were one of the weekends when a Six Nations match was on at the Millennium Stadium then I suspect that the answer would be Cardiff, of course, but the rest of the year?

I know people are desperate to whip up Welsh identity, but the railways aren't the way to do it.
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Cardiff has more / equal importance to the people of Bangor since devolution, but I think that's a process you don't grasp or believe in.

So there'd be more demand for a Bangor - Cardiff train than there would be for a Bangor - Manchester train?

Simple question.

I accept that there would be *some* demand for a Cardiff service, but more important than Manchester?

 

[jones_bangor]

Been a few times (and along the coast).

I don't remember seeing any Cardiff City shirts in the shops, alongside all the Liverpool/ Manchester United ones, given the importance that you think Cardiff has to the people of Bangor.

But then Cardiff has almost an hourly service from Bangor - remind ne how many Liverpool/ Manchester services does Bangor has?

Cardiff has more / equal importance to the people of Bangor since devolution, but I think that's a process you don't grasp or believe in.

What's football shirts got to do with train services?

 

[sprinterguy]

Are the DRS Mark 3s push-pull wired?

I don't think that it's an issue whether the mark 3s are working with 82/1 or 82/3 DVTs: I believe that the carriage wiring allows them to work with either, it's the 67s and DVTs that are the issue. The Cargo-D mark 3s that were used by W&S and those, plus ex-Virgin carriages, used in the Banbury commuter rake at present haven't needed to be modified to be able to work with the 823XX DVTs.

 

[Michael.Y]

I struggle to understand your logic, I really do. Manchester United and Liverpool are massive clubs whose shirts are found all over the UK and indeed the world, let alone the North Wales coast where a large set of their fanbase is located.

Hell, there are Celtic, Barcelona and Real Madrid shirts in my local shop in Newport. What does that tell you?

Since you are from Sheffield, and have no feasible interest in this service, why does it concern you so much?

 

[jones_bangor]

I know people are desperate to whip up Welsh identity, but the railways aren't the way to do it.

So there'd be more demand for a Bangor - Cardiff train than there would be for a Bangor - Manchester train?

Simple question.

I accept that there would be *some* demand for a Cardiff service, but more important than Manchester?

Welsh identity is doing just fine (thanks)- imagining a train as a vehicle for "whipping it up" is bizarre.

There's an hourly train to Chester, and frequent services to Manchester from there? I don't get your point - would you stop Mancs - Llandudno and extend to Holyhead? The capacity is there.

 

[YorkshireBear]

tbtcHes not saying welsh identity is poor, just that manchester and liverpool are much closer conurbations that are probably more important for things such as jobs to bangor than cardiff is.
Football shirts is an analogy not 100% proof of what he is saying as there probably isnt hard statistics to follow up his point.

And sorry being from sheffield does what then?
So if i have a discussion on midland mainline electrification because your from wales your not allowed to have an opinon?
Maybe we should ask the mods to make the forum geographical specific so you cant comment on railway items outside your area.... :/ jeez its a forum.

 

[jones_bangor]

tbtcHes not saying welsh identity is poor, just that manchester and liverpool are much closer conurbations that are probably more important for things such as jobs to bangor than cardiff is.
Football shirts is an analogy not 100% proof of what he is saying as there probably isnt hard statistics to follow up his point.

And sorry being from sheffield does what then?
So if i have a discussion on midland mainline electrification because your from wales your not allowed to have an opinon?
Maybe we should ask the mods to make the forum geographical specific so you cant comment on railway items outside your area.... :/ jeez its a forum.

I think the issue is that the constant downplaying of the importance of intra-Wales links flies in the face of the reality that I, and other people, see.

There's an agenda behind a lot of the comments, a veiled anti-devolution agenda, harking back to days when people like John Redwood ran Wales. Bad days.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's an agenda behind a lot of the comments, a veiled anti-devolution agenda, harking back to days when people like John Redwood ran Wales. Bad days.

Or there is a desire to see resources directed to where they are most needed...

 

[jones_bangor]

Or there is a desire to see resources directed to where they are most needed...

In the overall cost of the Wales Transport Plan the cost of running this "luxury" train service, is quite frankly, peanuts.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In the overall cost of the Wales Transport Plan the cost of running this "luxury" train service, is quite frankly, peanuts.

yes if you include road but if you split rail alone it is a very large proportion for ONE daily return service (5 days a week not seven...) that could be used to better use elesewhere.

 

[jones_bangor]

yes if you include road but if you split rail alone it is a very large proportion for ONE daily return service (5 days a week not seven...) that could be used to better use elesewhere.

No, it's two.

Where elsewhere though?

Personally, I think it's an innovative solution to add North - South capacity. In my experience, the services are generally well used, although the later North - South service isn't really that busy, effectively running "off peak".

There's a need for a mirror service though.

 

[Michael.Y]

An opinion is one thing, but banging on so passionately about an issue which doesn't even affect a person on a day-to-day basis is a little odd, in my opinion.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the issue is that the constant downplaying of the importance of intra-Wales links flies in the face of the reality that I, and other people, see.

There's an agenda behind a lot of the comments, a veiled anti-devolution agenda, harking back to days when people like John Redwood ran Wales. Bad days.

I'm pro-devolution but would not support full independence (with things like the armed forces, we are better off as a UNITED KINGDOM, in my opinion). However I do not support the intra-Wales air service (mainly due to concern about climate change) and would like to see the Cardiff - Holyhead direct service reduced to 2 or 3 a day (each way, all of which would be LHCS express services (the only stops I would have between Newport and Chester are Shrewsbury, Wrexham and either Abergavenny or Hereford (depending on which provides a better connection from the stops between there and Newport)) and run 7 days a week), simply because it is such an indirect route and places like Wrexham and Bangor should have a direct service at least to Crewe if not Manchester. Being pro-devolution, I would like to see a 2-hourly Cardiff - Bangor/Holyhead rail service, but on a much more direct route which does not currently exist.

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm pro-devolution but would not support full independence (with things like the armed forces, we are better off as a UNITED KINGDOM, in my opinion). However I do not support the intra-Wales air service (mainly due to concern about climate change) and would like to see the Cardiff - Holyhead direct service reduced to 2 or 3 a day (each way, all of which would be LHCS express services (the only stops I would have between Newport and Chester are Shrewsbury, Wrexham and either Abergavenny or Hereford (depending on which provides a better connection from the stops between there and Newport)) and run 7 days a week), simply because it is such an indirect route and places like Wrexham and Bangor should have a direct service at least to Crewe if not Manchester. Being pro-devolution, I would like to see a 2-hourly Cardiff - Bangor/Holyhead rail service, but on a much more direct route which does not currently exist.

I see where you're coming from.

You're right that few of the North - South services are that quick, they're a Cardiff - Shrewsbury STOP 10-15m - Chester STOP 20m - Holyhead, rambling away seemingly stopping at every opportunity.

I'm not sure that a more direct route than the Marches will ever really exist to be honest. Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen - Aber and north maybe.....

 

[Michael.Y]

There's an old saying:

"You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

End up trying to please everybody you end up pleasing no-one.

No matter how much people want to twist and turn the network to suit individual tastes, over simplified/generalised demographics, or political aspirations, someone will lose out.

Changing trains and indirect services are not the end of the world. Since 27 March 1963, compromise has been the name of the game, and even moreso since 19 January 1993.

As others have observed, HHD-CDF appears to be several individual services wrapped up in one. It's a school run for Anglesey, a student run for Bangor, a commuter run for Chester, Shrewsbury and Newport, a shopping trip for Wrexham, a holiday route for Rhyl, Prestatyn and Colwyn Bay...

...and contrary to belief, people DO use it all the way. I should know. I work the route two, three times a week and a fair proportion travel a good distance on it and beyond. And I don't think it's unreasonable to offer some service between north Wales and the capital city. I also think it's a good idea for one unit to do the work of three services in one movement. Certainly helps keep stock movement and line paths clear and manageable I think.

As for Welsh/English arguments, please, they are so yawnworthy. This is a rail franchise not defined by medieval borders based on Marcher Lords' lands or a dyke built by a guy called Offa. I wonder sometimes what the proud English residents of Shropshire think about their stations being managed by a TOC with the name "Wales" prominently in the title.

But then I remember that Arriva is actually a Sunderland company owned by the Germans. The idea that some jaded Welsh jingoism plays any part in this is laughable really.

If you are an ATW-area passenger who takes issue with the way your service is run, please speak to your local Passenger Focus group. Lobby your AM and your MP. Write to ATW. Or speak to us.

 

[merlodlliw]

As for Welsh/English arguments, please, they are so yawnworthy. This is a rail franchise not defined by medieval borders based on Marcher Lords' lands or a dyke built by a guy called Offa. I wonder sometimes what the proud English residents of Shropshire think about their stations being managed by a TOC with the name "Wales" prominently in the title. Quote Michael.

The ATW/WG Cardiff station Management influence is broader than Shropshire Michael.

Arriva Trains Wales on behalf of the Welsh Govt in Cardiff also manages stations within the counties of Cheshire West & Chester.Cheshire East,Halton, Wirral,Hereford.

I personally welcome extra rail services, but object to luxury frills within a recession that the majority of passengers can not afford, or even want.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A lot of people forget that the Wales and Border franchise saw the well used and popular through trains to Bristol (& beyond) along the North and West route be pulled and got CDF to HHD instead. The "borders" bit was not impressed.

As I've said before I've been going down the Marches to Cardiff on business trips for 10 years plus now. Its busier even with north to south Wales traffic then again the whole railway is busier and not with that traffic alone. I still end up killing time in Shrewsbury on the way home as the Cambrian is still only 2hrly. Whilst connections at Shrewsbury have been prioritized to Cardiff from the Cambrian I still notice I am often the only one doing it or can count on one hand at best of times. I know the latent untapped demand to go from the Cambrian to Manchester/Chester/Wrexham is far far greater. Chester is just less than an hour from Shrewsbury, Manchester just over an hour and a quarter, Cardiff is 2 hrs its basic laws of time/distance but the timetable suppresses demand. We have a independent ticket retailer in Newtown and the staff there know Cardiff is a small minor market.

WG1 & 2 are supremely irrelevant to 99% of Cambrian users as they don't connect you only get the odd enthusiast on day trips that goes out their way to use the LHCS. I used it last week only because I finished early and was planning on getting the 1650 CDF to Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

In the overall cost of the Wales Transport Plan the cost of running this "luxury" train service, is quite frankly, peanuts.

In the overall cost of the Wales Transport Plan the cost of running a plane from Anglesey to Cardiff is also "peanuts", but that doesn't mean its good value for money either...

 

[jones_bangor]

In the overall cost of the Wales Transport Plan the cost of running a plane from Anglesey to Cardiff is also "peanuts", but that doesn't mean its good value for money either...

I've shared my views on the real reason of the continuation of that service elsewhere on this thread.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Also might i add, it may be peanuts but when local services are being cut libaries etc etc etc them peanuts could achieve a lot at local level in this economic climate rather than on some vanity rail service.

 

[jones_bangor]

Also might i add, it may be peanuts but when local services are being cut libaries etc etc etc them peanuts could achieve a lot at local level in this economic climate rather than on some vanity rail service.

Oh you're not starting the schools and hospitals argument?

I think most people on this forum can operate at a higher intellectual level than that!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Also might i add, it may be peanuts but when local services are being cut libaries etc etc etc them peanuts could achieve a lot at local level in this economic climate rather than on some vanity rail service.

If you would rather have the money going to reduce cuts to local services please take down Ieaun air first before you even talk about touching the WAG express. The rail service serves a much wider area and is money to support shift to more sustainable modes of transport, whereas Ieaun air is the opposite.

 

[jones_bangor]

vanity rail service.

I'm intrigued why you think a rail service dreamed up in the One Wales agreement between the Labour Party and Plaid is vanity.

 

[tbtc]

Or there is a desire to see resources directed to where they are most needed...

This is the point that some struggle to see...

If ATW is the TOC with the biggest subsidy required per passenger, and they are diverting resources to the WAG Express then is it not right that questions are asked?

So there'd be more demand for a Bangor - Cardiff train than there would be for a Bangor - Manchester train?

Simple question.

I accept that there would be *some* demand for a Cardiff service, but more important than Manchester?

There's an hourly train to Chester, and frequent services to Manchester from there? I don't get your point - would you stop Mancs - Llandudno and extend to Holyhead? The capacity is there.

It was a simple question - are you saying that there's more demand for Bangor - Cardiff than Bangor - Manchester? On the mornings of Six Nations games at the Millennium Stadium then I reckon Cardiff would win that argument. But on the other 99% of days?

Yes, you could change to get to Manchester, but you could always change to get to Cardiff in the past (e.g. at Crewe). Just answer the question
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since you are from Sheffield, and have no feasible interest in this service, why does it concern you so much?

You can tell that people are losing an argument when they start getting personal

 

[Proud Salopian]

I wonder sometimes what the proud English residents of Shropshire think about their stations being managed by a TOC with the name "Wales" prominently in the title.

We don't care. After all it's just branding for a train company. The border with Wales is almost not noteworthy (seriously, the number of times I hear people comment "X is in Wales is it? Oh..") and we're rather amused by the recent rise in Welsh nationalism, especially as (bordering Shropshire anyway) few Welsh people speak Welsh and the only clue that you're in Wales is that the road signs are larger and ARAF is painted above SLOW. Place names don't change on the border - we have plenty of Welsh placenames on our side and the Welsh have plenty of English names on their side.

All this palava in having direct services (rail and... even more ridiculously: air!) from north to south Wales is also a bemusement. It's clearly only to masseur the egos of nationalist Welsh politicians and has almost sod all economic merit. It is a vanity project, though I do like the WAG trains - but rather than having both go south in the morning, they should be run in "opposite directions" if you get my drift. But that wouldn't then suit the Welsh Assembly members..

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm intrigued why you think a rail service dreamed up in the One Wales agreement between the Labour Party and Plaid is vanity.

You are kidding right? You mention political parties, an agreement between them, and then dismiss the WAG as a vanity project based on that?!

Jesus wept. Either you're incredibly naive, incredibly nationalist or think we're incredibly stupid. :roll:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva Trains Wales on behalf of the Welsh Govt in Cardiff also manages stations within the counties of Cheshire West & Chester.Cheshire East,Halton, Wirral,Hereford.

Or "Cheshire, on the Wirral and Herefordshire" rather than a roll call of local authorities..