WAG Express discussion

[TDK]

The 57 on the WAG Mon to Friday, is never switched off,left ticking over all night, It is my impression with the switch at Chester the rear end 57 was in fact ticking over on departing Holyhead?. 57s according to a driver I spoke to said they are awful to start up from cold.
The triangle at Chester could not be used with passengers on board. I also think to 30 mins at Chester was just in case of problems,

TDK will give chapter & verse on 67s start up,he drives them,I also recall Andy Hamilton CEO of W/S telling me, "I would not touch 57s with a barge pole,too unreliable"

Also good to learn the main traffic of passengers was from Wrexham,for once ATW advertised the fact it was running a Rug Ex special, only £18 return for over 55s.

Bob

From cold a 67 will start immediately and it takes about 10 minutes for the air to build up and to overcharge - prep on a 67 takes 25 minutes.

If you have a 57 idling on the rear unless there are fire precautions on the 57 this is not permitted unless you have a fireman in the rear cab to shut the engine down in case of a fire this is the reason the 67's have to be fitted with fire precautions when used with a DVT. A 67 without fire precautions MUST be dead hauled.

The 30 minutes at Chester - was this not a run round time?

When changing ends with 2 x 67 with 1 dead hauled you are looking at least 15 minutes turn round including disposal of the leading loco, setting up the rear loco, a brake test and overcharge, with a DVT about 5 mins but the set will then need to be overcharged on the run, this is possible but not the ideal scenario.

57's were not really designed for this sort of work and to be honest are a poor loco, they are really souped up 47's and these locos were always problematic in their late days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One imagines, and hopes, that as a fairly modern loco it can just switch its drive from one direction to another.

If you read the above post it is not as easy as that - 67's were not designed to do push pull
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would imagine a 57 is capable of that too, it's just when reversing a top&tail train (with one loco dead on rear, rather than being on and wasting fuel) you have to start it up. Still suprising that it takes 30 minutes to power a loco up though.

You may find the unions will govern the time taken. To change ends with dead haul you have:

1. Shut down leading loco
2. Batteries out (may need a block for this)
3. Isolate parking brake
4. Tail lamp to rear
5. walk length of train.
6. Batteries in now the front loco (may need a block for this)
7. Remove tail lamp
8. reinstate parking brake
9. Start front loco
10. Brake test with a competent person
11. Overcharge

So it's just not pushing the start button.

With a DVT it is a lot quicker

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for that TDK, I just presumed the rear 57 may have been running with perhaps some one in the cab. In case it would not start at Chester

I note the WAG EX 57 is left running idle all night, so I presume some one is around? in case of fire.

On reflection the 30 minutes at Chester is well explained by you.

Indeed the 67s are a far superior loco, I do recall when 47s were towing the
Holyheads from Crewe a few years ago, frequent failures of 47s seemed par for the run.


Thanks for the explanation


Bob

 

[Michael.Y]

If you read the above post it is not as easy as that - 67's were not designed to do push pull

So how does it work with the DVT on Chiltern / ex-W/S then? Was there a 15-minute turnaround minimum at journey's end? Would any Wrexham-bound WAG 67/DVT combo have a 15-min stopover at Chester?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here by the way!

 

[jones_bangor]

So how does it work with the DVT on Chiltern / ex-W/S then? Was there a 15-minute turnaround minimum at journey's end? Would any Wrexham-bound WAG 67/DVT combo have a 15-min stopover at Chester?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here by the way!

I don't think 15 minutes, certainly a few minutes though.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I seem to recall an interesting journey on W&S in, I think, Oct 2010 when services were routed down the WCML and then did some interesting manoeuvres near Acton (N London) to regain the original route - from memory I think there were two occasions when the driver had to walk from the 67 to the DVT along the track and vice versa, it only took a very short while to start up.
I think that these journeys were jokingly called 'W&S Railtours' - but it certainly was an interesting experience not only because of an unusual route but it seemed to have been carried out very efficiently - to me, anyway.

 

[merlodlliw]

So how does it work with the DVT on Chiltern / ex-W/S then? Was there a 15-minute turnaround minimum at journey's end? Would any Wrexham-bound WAG 67/DVT combo have a 15-min stopover at Chester?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here by the way!

I have seen the W/S stock come into Wrexham from Marylebone,change staff inc driver and leave within five minutes,the 67 is of course kept running.
If I recall there was only a few mins window in & out.
A few ATW DMUs have quiet a long dwell time in Chester as well plus the driver changes ends.

Bob

 

[anthony263]

I have seen the W/S stock come into Wrexham from Marylebone,change staff inc driver and leave within five minutes,the 67 is of course kept running.
If I recall there was only a few mins window in & out.

Bob

Yes I remember when I travled from Wrexham to London on the 11:27 departure. The train arrived from Marylebone in Wrexham General at 11:20 and was out on time although it was due into Wrexham General at 11:17

 

[jones_bangor]

I have seen the W/S stock come into Wrexham from Marylebone,change staff inc driver and leave within five minutes,the 67 is of course kept running.

Talking of WSMR, I was speculating elsewhere as to whether the WSMR Mk3s will become the WG Express Mk3s once the refurbished plug-door Chiltern's come on line.

YES, I know Chiltern need the extra stock, but we're only talking of 3 x STDs and 1 x FIRST for ATW.....

All within the umbrella of DB....

 

[merlodlliw]

Talking of WSMR, I was speculating elsewhere as to whether the WSMR Mk3s will become the WG Express Mk3s once the refurbished plug-door Chiltern's come on line.

YES, I know Chiltern need the extra stock, but we're only talking of 3 x STDs and 1 x FIRST for ATW.....

All within the umbrella of DB....

If it can be kept in house, it will be, I and a few others always speculated that W/S stock would be used when the plug was pulled on W/S.
I suppose the wiring would be in place? its all gone silent again, only two full months left to the new timetable on May 14th.
It is my opinion we will see 67s pulling Gerald long before they go via Wrexham,I don't see everything in place for 67/DVT/Stock for May 15th via Wrexham. that is if both trains will continue. And the unreliable 57s are wanted back by the hiring Company.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the tender: www.publictenders.net/tender/9211 was ever awarded.

Now where is there virtually identical push-pull stock to the specification ready to go? And this stock is shortly to be displaced by high density plug door stock around May....

I know there have been suggestions that the ex-WSMR will be retro-fitted with power doors, but I'd assume major structural work like that would be undertaken on stripped out shells, and the interior added afterwards....time will tell, but to quote my other post " it doesn't seem to make economic sense to take perfectly good ex-WSMR stock out of service for several weeks or months, modify and refurbish to Chiltern Mainline standard (primarily I refer to the major structural work of fitting power doors plus any interior modifications like adding more seats etc) whilst then spending several hundred thousand per carriage refurbishing other Mk 3 stock to the same standard as the WSMR stock that's just been pulled to bits....all within the same company (you couldn't make it up, but this is the private railways!)!!"

 

[TDK]

So how does it work with the DVT on Chiltern / ex-W/S then? Was there a 15-minute turnaround minimum at journey's end? Would any Wrexham-bound WAG 67/DVT combo have a 15-min stopover at Chester?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here by the way!

I can change ends in 5 minutes easily, have done it in 3 minutes before however the unions will allow much more in the rostering for turn round purposes. All you need to do is pull the reverser key in the 67, leg it to the DVT, operate a valve, build the brake pipe, push the overcharge button and you are on your way. I would prefer overcharging when sationary but it is quite safe to overcharge on the move.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Talking of WSMR, I was speculating elsewhere as to whether the WSMR Mk3s will become the WG Express Mk3s once the refurbished plug-door Chiltern's come on line.

YES, I know Chiltern need the extra stock, but we're only talking of 3 x STDs and 1 x FIRST for ATW.....

All within the umbrella of DB....

AAFAIK the ex WSMR stock will be fitted with plug doors with the other stock, I am sure some of the WSMR stock are already in the works being fitted as we speak. Why should ATW have the coaches when they were totally against the WSMR service originally anyway, let them pay for them as WSMR had to. You will need 2 sets anyway at least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it can be kept in house, it will be, I and a few others always speculated that W/S stock would be used when the plug was pulled on W/S.

Bob

Very interesting quote bob, others as you call them are always speculating and to be honest their speculation including GJ were completely wrong however that is all in the past now and Chiltern are using the stock as predicted.

 

[jones_bangor]

AAFAIK the ex WSMR stock will be fitted with plug doors with the other stock, I am sure some of the WSMR stock are already in the works being fitted as we speak. Why should ATW have the coaches when they were totally against the WSMR service originally anyway, let them pay for them as WSMR had to. You will need 2 sets anyway at least.

Very interesting quote bob, others as you call them are always speculating and to be honest their speculation including GJ were completely wrong however that is all in the past now and Chiltern are using the stock as predicted.

The WSMR stock is exactly what ATW need for Gerald 1 & 2 - basically ready to go.

I stick to my point - it would be wasteful on a grand scale to retro-fit plug doors to the WSMR stock, I am yet to believe that anyone would fit a plug door to carriages that hadn't been stripped out completely - it's major structural and electrical work, with fitting out to Chiltern spec afterwards.

Why is there no evidence the WG/ATW tender for mark 3s was never awarded.....can I suggest it's because someone at DB put 2+2 together? The coaches will be "paid for" - ATW / DB already have received the money..........

Using as predicted - for now, the ex WSMR stock is a stop gap only. I'd doubt if Chiltern want a mixed slam door / plug door Mk 3 fleet.

 

[Michael.Y]

I can change ends in 5 minutes easily, have done it in 3 minutes before however the unions will allow much more in the rostering for turn round purposes. All you need to do is pull the reverser key in the 67, leg it to the DVT, operate a valve, build the brake pipe, push the overcharge button and you are on your way. I would prefer overcharging when sationary but it is quite safe to overcharge on the move.

This is what I meant in my earlier post when I said I hoped it could switch its drive from one direction to another. So a (relatively quick) turnaround in Chester with a Wrexham-routed WAG Express on 67+DVT is possible.

 

[a1a.a1a]

Rumor is the 67's could be starting Mon the 26th March (vice one week later).... get them 'snatch' miles in THIS WEEK boys n gals.

:eek:

 

[merlodlliw]

Rumor is the 67's could be starting Mon the 26th March (vice one week later).... get them 'snatch' miles in THIS WEEK boys n gals.

:eek:

Insiders at ATW say it starts 67s 2nd April, rental fee for 57s paid to 30th March, but who knows.

 

[cymro inside]

rumour is next monday 0532 hhd to cdf is class 57 amd 1615 return is class 67 then 67s onwards.

 

[Penmorfa]

This is what I meant in my earlier post when I said I hoped it could switch its drive from one direction to another. So a (relatively quick) turnaround in Chester with a Wrexham-routed WAG Express on 67+DVT is possible.

But would it still be a WAG express if it then stops at all stations to Shrewsbury, like WAG2?

 

[Michael.Y]

But would it still be a WAG express if it then stops at all stations to Shrewsbury, like WAG2?

I'm not sure what point you're making. There is no mention of "Express" in the official title - it's just a nickname. The LHS does miss out stations, not just on the Marches but also in North Wales. Also, WAG2 does miss out stations:

WAG1 N-S: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36162/2012/3/22 (LHS)
WAG2 N-S: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36163/2012/3/22 (175)
WAG1 S-N: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36222/2012/3/21 (LHS)
WAG2 S-N: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36223/2012/3/21 (175)

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure what point you're making. There is no mention of "Express" in the official title - it's just a nickname. The LHS does miss out stations, not just on the Marches but also in North Wales. Also, WAG2 does miss out stations:

WAG1 N-S: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36162/2012/3/22 (LHS)
WAG2 N-S: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36163/2012/3/22 (175)
WAG1 S-N: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36222/2012/3/21 (LHS)
WAG2 S-N: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36223/2012/3/21 (175)

Correct,the title WAG Express is just an invented name by a few of us in North East Wales, IWJ the Minister at the time never called it an express,as both have to use local stopping paths(replacement for DMUs), Wag 1 on the down & Wag2 on the up.
I can not see either being Express, as the intention was to call at a station in Each County in North Wales( actually after a fight two in Conwy Wag1)
until timetable Dec 2012/13 arrives, I don't see much change.
By then I would not expect both to run in the same order, when the Wrexham stop occurs with the 67 s/DVT, I can not see it running to arrive in Cardiff middle day.
The timetable for May 2015 or Dec 2015 will tell us all after the redoubling from Saltney.
With WAG1 going 67, I imagine some of the £3.5millions ring fenced for WAG2 must have been plundered, has I have not noted anything in the budget from April for the
175 or Geralds WAG1 subsidy, but then you can only get hold of WG accounts under a FOI request.

 

[jones_bangor]

Correct,the title WAG Express is just an invented name by a few of us in North East Wales, IWJ the Minister at the time never called it an express,as both have to use local stopping paths(replacement for DMUs), Wag 1 on the down & Wag2 on the up.
I can not see either being Express, as the intention was to call at a station in Each County in North Wales( actually after a fight two in Conwy Wag1)
until timetable Dec 2012/13 arrives, I don't see much change.

WAG (or WG)1 only calls at 1 Conwy station - Llandudno Junction.

 

[Penmorfa]

O.K. the Premier Service then:

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/PremierService/

 

[merlodlliw]

WAG (or WG)1 only calls at 1 Conwy station - Llandudno Junction.

Well spotted Jones Bangor, should have PUT wag2, which calls at both Conwy stations(Junction & Colwyn Bay), Both Denbighshire stations(Rhyl & Prestatyn) but no calls at any station in Flintshire, no doubt Flintshire will be addressed by the 67/DVT.

 

[cymro inside]

its official class 67s take over starts on 1615 cdf-hhd next monday. also atw staff source says via Wrexham with mk3s and dvt from September.

 

[Michael.Y]

O.K. the Premier Service then:

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/PremierService/

Yes we know what train we're talking about thanks.

 

[jones_bangor]

its official class 67s take over starts on 1615 cdf-hhd next monday. also atw staff source says via Wrexham with mk3s and dvt from September.

Chiltern / WSMR Mark 3's??

 

[Penmorfa]

Well spotted Jones Bangor, should have PUT wag2, which calls at both Conwy stations(Junction & Colwyn Bay), Both Denbighshire stations(Rhyl & Prestatyn) but no calls at any station in Flintshire, no doubt Flintshire will be addressed by the 67/DVT.

there are actually four stations in Conwy on the Crewe - Holyhead line, WAG2 does'nt call at Conwy or Abergele, neither does it call at Prestatyn. source; Arriva book 4
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes we know what train we're talking about thanks.

oh good

But would it still be a Premier Service if it then stops at all stations to Shrewsbury, like WAG2?

 

[Squaddie]

But would it still be a Premier Service if it then stops at all stations to Shrewsbury, like WAG2?

Yes, because the Premier refers to the standard of accommodation on the train rather than the stopping pattern.

 

[SprinterMan]

its official class 67s take over starts on 1615 cdf-hhd next monday. also atw staff source says via Wrexham with mk3s and dvt from September.

Do we have a link for this?
Its a real shame to see the 57s go tbh, they somehow have more soul than the 67s replacing them (probably the remnants of the 47s they once were). If Virgin take them back I wonder if they (all 4) will be repainted and renamed, or wether 14 & 15 will just be debranded then all 4 continue service with Virgin in plain blue.

 

[anthony263]

Chiltern / WSMR Mark 3's??

I think the current rakes will be used until at least sepetember.

Nothing to say 1 of the former WSMR sets could be transfered to work the service with very small ATW & WG logo's instead of chiltern railways

 

[Penmorfa]

Yes, because the Premier refers to the standard of accommodation on the train rather than the stopping pattern.

Arriva thinks differently: For passengers, it means there is now a faster, greener and more comfortable alternative to travelling by car between North and South Wales.

My point is that the service would miss out Colwyn Bay, Prestatyn and Hereford and yet quite possibly call at Ruabon,Chirk and Gobowen.