Wabtec Awarded Contract For £60M Class 321 Refurbishment Project.

[EssexGonzo]

Lastly it appears ironic that a Shenfield passenger in few years will have the (limited) choice of seating in the 2+2 seats with armrests in the middle of a Crossrail train or if available squeezing in to the middle of a 3 seat with no armrests in a GA train for his or her journey into London!

Seating? From Shenfield? That would be nice! (On the GA trains, obviously.)

 

[F Great Eastern]

Chatting to chap who is in the know. Delay on GA Aventra details down to them working out how to sugar coat less savoury aspects, No first class, no toilets and 3+2 seating. Good luck telling passengers, GA.

I've been critical of this deal since day one and if that is going to happen (which I hope it does not) it proves that my skepticism of the deal was completely correct and that the whole procurement and ordering process of the fleet is about a vanity project for Abellio rather than really providing a proper order.

FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT in capital letters all over the media and the publicity that FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT brings to the company for making a FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT to the region appears to be all they care about, so they are going to hit us all with quantity over quality, a delivery and entering into service of the FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT that will be unworkable and will not be on time because they rushed the FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT because they felt it made the look good.

Instead they could have gone for a majority fleet replacement in 2019/2020 keeping on the 360s and 379s on to protect them from the dangers of expecting so much new stock being put on the lines at the same time and the problems that they could run into and also allowing them to spend more money per train to a decent interior spec. But the trouble is when you try and replace too much as once, you have to reduce the spend per unit to allow you to do this.

The trouble is that wouldn't grab the headlines enough and that seems to be that all Abellio care about, the moment this deal was asked I felt that it was all about press for Abellio and style over substance and the more I read the more it is the case, they are not interested in quality in this rolling stock order they are interested in generating the best publicity possible and have decided to cut corners with specification in order to replace everything all at once since I doubt the sums added up to spec it properly.

The way I would have done it would have been to do it in two phases, which would vastly reduce the chances of an issue with new untested rolling stock models causing issues since there is till old stock around and meant that they did not have to cut corners on the stock since they could drag the investment over a number of extra years of revenue. But instead they're going for one big bang despite how much potential there is for that to go very wrong.

I would structure it
2019-2020 - Replace 90/MK3S/153/156/317/321
2021-2022 - Replace 170/360/379

As I said before I really hope that Abellio prove me wrong, but they are going to live and die by this, if they pull it off it will be amazing, but if they don't, I will still be posting here in three years time and come around and say I told you so, but I predict that it will be far from a bed of roses.

 

[Silverlink]

I agree cant wait for this to all go tits up. Watch them have no choice but to keep some of the older trains in service for a while as the new ones will have so much teething problems.

 

[Kite159]

Is there any news when 321303/304 or 448 will return to London after their latest trip up north?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Saw a few NX style liveried 321 carriages in the Doncaster Works sidings when I passed today - unfortunately didn't catch the number of it.

 

[AC47461]

I thought I saw one in Ilford last Monday, but it was only a passing glance. If it was one, I guess it might have been 321321?

I've heard there have been quite a few problems with them so I wouldn't expect them back any time soon.

 

[Kite159]

Saw a few NX style liveried 321 carriages in the Doncaster Works sidings when I passed today - unfortunately didn't catch the number of it.

Might have been part of 321305

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Might have been part of 321305

Ah right thanks - probably was in that case.

 

[ginger]

So this thread has gone quiet! About as quiet as the contractual requirement to get 10 units in service prior to Oct 2016.......so now abellio are rehashing the PR to say 30 will be in service "shortly"

So where are the lessor spotted "renatus" units?

Well, one was spotted in Ilford today.....no doubt it will fail very shortly and be sent back for rectification but when will people acknowledge that this flawed project is on its knees?

(by the way passengers suffer appalling ancient 321 interiors in the meantime)

 

[Wivenswold]

304 and 321 are back with new AC packages and under test I believe. 303 went back for new AC pack last year. 301 is nearly finished. 448 (not technically Renatus) came back too I think, whether that will ever see passenger service again though, I'm not sure.

I understand that there have been issues.

 

[samuelmorris]

I hadn't seen any at all for quite some time until today and I certainly haven't seen one in service for months. 448 and one other Renatus unit visible at Ilford this evening, but no idea what relation that has to one being back in service - I did quite a few trips on 448 in its original DC traction guise a few years ago, but have still yet to ride the finished article. I'm still curious to ride one, but what Abellio are expecting to achieve at this late stage with 30 units I'm not sure.

 

[D365]

... but what Abellio are expecting to achieve at this late stage with 30 units I'm not sure.

It's an Eversholt-led project so the onus is on them.

 

[ginger]

It's an Eversholt-led project so the onus is on them.

and? as a passenger who gets fed the PR from the TOC why should I (or thousands of others) care......we pay our fares......ever rising......and geet? Failure! Which was predicted by the way.....

So appx 40-60k commuters daily are supposed to put up with this failure?

So so predictable to failure.....as I said on the closed thread and I got shot down in flames.....rather glad the ROSCO has actually LOST money on this flawed project....

 

[Wivenswold]

I think in the bigger picture most don't actually care. I certainly don't. If they were the cornerstone of the new franchise then maybe it would be a concern.

New trains are on the way. Most are getting a spruce-up in the meantime. It's punctuality and cleanliness that most of us commuters are concerned about. My wife didn't even notice the Renatus make-over when we got on one last year and she spends 3 hours every day on Class 321s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree cant wait for this to all go tits up. Watch them have no choice but to keep some of the older trains in service for a while as the new ones will have so much teething problems.

What, like those old trains that love to sit down on the WCML in the morning peak? (Class 319) While the newer 350s soldier on, reliable and appreciated by passengers?

 

[90sWereBetter]

and? as a passenger who gets fed the PR from the TOC why should I (or thousands of others) care......we pay our fares......ever rising......and geet? Failure! Which was predicted by the way.....

So appx 40-60k commuters daily are supposed to put up with this failure?

So so predictable to failure.....as I said on the closed thread and I got shot down in flames.....rather glad the ROSCO has actually LOST money on this flawed project....

Do you actually do anything other than whinge?

 

[Wivenswold]

To be fair to Ginger, he's very passionate about the service and has a remarkable attention to detail. We don't always agree but unlike most who complain about GA trains he does get off his backside and speaks to GA and is always happy to provide tidbits of information to the rest of us.

 

[ginger]

To be fair to Ginger, he's very passionate about the service and has a remarkable attention to detail. We don't always agree but unlike most who complain about GA trains he does get off his backside and speaks to GA and is always happy to provide tidbits of information to the rest of us.

I am seeing Senior Management this week and I am going to raise your very valid points about comfort levels and leg room on the new fleet.....and I will hold their "feet to the fire".....naturally I am not popular but from what I have come across in the shape of "management" is woefully unimpressive!

Someone has to hold them to account for their constant failure!

And no, I dont always whinge.....at least they got a new fleet! And deserve praise for it.......just got to make sure it is correct for passengers and not done on the cheap

 

[samuelmorris]

For all the remarks about his forum manner (which I agree doesn't necessarily help matters) you can't argue that the issue isn't taken seriously. It was through ginger I had the opportunity to have an in-depth half-hour odd conversation with Jamie Burles and discuss a lot of these matters face to face. It was a very interesting evening and although I can't say for sure, I like to think that things like that contributed to Abellio's decision to take the action that they have with regard to fleet replacement. There's still more to do as I'm still unconvinced that Greater Anglia are pulling their weight in other areas, but regular use of Southern and Thameslink has certainly added a bit of perspective here. I do think things are improving slowly.

Back on topic, with regard to the 321 refurbishment programme I am certainly interested to hear what they have to say about it - it's certainly true that the ROSCO is responsible for commission of the refurbishment but it's not as if the link between TOC and ROSCO is completely opaque - Eversholt must be able to see there's an issue if there is no intended operator for the rolling stock they are spending all this money on, and presumably will be communicating with the current operator about that issue.

 

[Alfie1014]

I do have to say that the whole programme has been disappointing, its been 3 1/2 years since the prototype appeared and there's still been no squadron service. All 30 are supposed to be available for traffic by May 2018 according to the Franchise Agreement, then withdrawn only 18 months later!

We seem to have lost the the ability to properly refurb stock in this country, (see the 458/460 debacle) and what with the current 'cheap' cost of new build the market for substantial refurbishment seems to be diminishing. I do wonder if we'll get to point like in Japan where the average life of much stock is around 25 years and it'll be cheaper and easier to replace rather than refurb? That said the 2020 deadline is undoubtedly skewing the market.

The sad thing is that I rather like the Renatus units on the limited trips I had on them it's such a shame that it looks like they'll have such a limited life in traffic on GA (anyway).

 

[Silverlink]

I do have to say that the whole programme has been disappointing, its been 3 1/2 years since the prototype appeared and there's still been no squadron service. All 30 are supposed to be available for traffic by May 2018 according to the Franchise Agreement, then withdrawn only 18 months later!

We seem to have lost the the ability to properly refurb stock in this country, (see the 458/460 debacle) and what with the current 'cheap' cost of new build the market for substantial refurbishment seems to be diminishing. I do wonder if we'll get to point like in Japan where the average life of much stock is around 25 years and it'll be cheaper and easier to replace rather than refurb? That said the 2020 deadline is undoubtedly skewing the market.

The sad thing is that I rather like the Renatus units on the limited trips I had on them it's such a shame that it looks like they'll have such a limited life in traffic on GA (anyway).

Yeah I think it is a shame that there isn't any in regular service yet! Wonder what is taking them so long, I think LM might get a few renatus units after 2020 to replace the class 319's. Would be a shame to see them scrapped

 

[Alfie1014]

It seems that the Renatus units might at last be about to enter service,

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/news-articles/newly-refurbished-more-energy-efficient-train-about-enter-passenger

Commuters in Essex and Suffolk are benefiting from smarter, more comfortable and greener trains as Greater Anglia’s newly refurbished Class 321 trains enter passenger service.

The third train to be refurbished is now back from works and, once engineers at Ilford Depot have made their final checks, will soon enter passenger service.

It is the first to feature a new ‘regenerative braking’ system which will cut down energy consumption and improve reliability.

The newly refurbished train uses AC motors, instead of DC ones, and this not only makes them more reliable but means that when the train brakes the motor is converted into a generator, as its kinetic energy is turned into chemical energy which can be stored in a battery and later used to power the train.

This innovation is expected to cut the train’s energy use by 18% energy due to the regenerative braking, plus a further 8% due to the more efficient AC drive motor (even though the train uses more power than an unrefurbished Class 321).

The newly refurbished train will also greatly improve passenger comfort through the installation of brand new seating, air-conditioning, heating systems, more spacious vestibules for improved boarding and alighting, better lighting, more spacefor wheelchairs, buggies, bicycles and luggage, as well as new flooring, ceiling panels and windows.

The train is also fitted with free wifi throughout and power sockets to enable passenger to charge mobile phone and laptops during their journeys.

Greater Anglia’s Managing Director Jamie Burles said: “This upgrade is one of a series of improvements Greater Anglia is introducing over the next three years, and will transform our passengers’ experience and also allow us to reduce our carbon footprint. These enhancements will then be followed by the transformation programme to replace our entire train fleet with brand new, state of the art trains during 2019/20.”

 

[Wivenswold]

Thanks Alfie.

According to my list the state of play is:

Back with GA - 301
Wolverton - 304, 321, 448
Wabtec - 302, 303, 305, 309, 311

Though happy to be updated if any have moved without me noticing.

I assume 306,307,308 are next to go. Last chance to sit on a First Great Eastern green seat!

 

[samuelmorris]

Has 448 recently moved back to Wolverton again? I've been seeing it in Ilford until very recently - likewise one Renatus unit, presumably that's 301.

As far as them being back in service, I'll believe it when I see it. The press release looks like a carbon copy of when they first temporarily brought one into service for a few days around 6 months ago. With only one unit in the fleet which will inevitably have very low availability, I'd be surprised if we see any in service on a regular basis any time soon.

 

[dp21]

Thanks Alfie.

According to my list the state of play is:

Back with GA - 301
Wolverton - 304, 321, 448
Wabtec - 302, 303, 305, 309, 311

Though happy to be updated if any have moved without me noticing.

I assume 306,307,308 are next to go. Last chance to sit on a First Great Eastern green seat!

So the latest list I have from the depot is:

Doncaster: 301, 302, 305, 309, 311.

Wolverton: 303 (I'm there Wednesday so can get more accurate info).

Ilford: 304, 312 (ac tract, don't think renatus yet), 321.

448 was (as of this morning) apparently still at Ilford.

304 and 321 are subject to final checks before entering service as the full package I do believe (apologies if that's already been said).

 

[Wivenswold]

So the latest list I have from the depot is:

Doncaster: 301, 302, 305, 309, 311.

Wolverton: 303 (I'm there Wednesday so can get more accurate info).

Ilford: 304, 312 (ac tract, don't think renatus yet), 321.

448 was (as of this morning) apparently still at Ilford.

304 and 321 are subject to final checks before entering service as the full package I do believe (apologies if that's already been said).

Thank's so much. I'd missed 312 completely.

 

[dp21]

Thank's so much. I'd missed 312 completely.

No probs

Will update where I can!

 

[nxea321446]

So the latest list I have from the depot is:

Doncaster: 301, 302, 305, 309, 311.

Wolverton: 303 (I'm there Wednesday so can get more accurate info).

Ilford: 304, 312 (ac tract, don't think renatus yet), 321.

448 was (as of this morning) apparently still at Ilford.

304 and 321 are subject to final checks before entering service as the full package I do believe (apologies if that's already been said).

321301 at Wolverton, 321303 believed to be at Doncaster

 

[Cletus]

321448 spotted in an "All The Stations" video on the 31st May at Ilford.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0jiPU2Skyo
From about 7mins40.

 

[dp21]

321301 at Wolverton, 321303 believed to be at Doncaster

You are correct, had a good look round it today. 314 was meant to arrive weeks ago but hasn't shown for reasons unknown (which I shall be querying).

For why the depot has 301 listed as doncaster and 303 wolverton I'm not sure.