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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

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jimm

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The strike from Saturday to monday on FGW is to go ahead. The RMT has posted an announcement on its website

Strike action to go ahead this weekend on First Great Western as company continues to fail to address core issues.

RAIL UNION RMT said today that strike action in the dispute with First Great Western will go ahead as planned this weekend as the company continues to fail to offer clear-cut assurances on the core issues impacting on staff and passengers from the introduction of the new fleet of Hitachi inter-city trains.

Full post at https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/strike-action-to-go-ahead-on-first-great-western/
 
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Carlisle

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Unfortunately the current RMT regime seems pretty determined to try and out Crow Bob Crow,almost regardless of any consequences or long term effect on the railways future
 
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Mag_seven

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This could turn out to be a long one as FGW seem determined to introduce DOO and the RMT seem determined to oppose it. Its not like a pay dispute where you can settle on a number - this is either DOO or no DOO.
 

455driver

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ASLEF have got to reach an agreement yet and if they don't listen to their membership they will find themselves short of members in a few months time!
 

LateThanNever

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ASLEF have got to reach an agreement yet and if they don't listen to their membership they will find themselves short of members in a few months time!
Surely ASLEF should be supporting guards - although admittedly in the past this has not in fact been the case. Are you saying the membership have changed their views? If so that would really change the context for the dispute - and for a long time - if not for ever...
 

Bookd

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Can anyone tell me why a strike is needed now (other than for a weekend off)? The company say they are not planning single manning, although that may depend on how you define DOO, and will employ more rather than fewer staff. Clearly the Union do not believe them, but the trains have not even been built yet. The Union could threaten to 'black' the new trains when they arrive if there has been no agreement but they still have about two years to discuss this - I cannot see how the Union can say that they have no alternative but to strike now.
 

Captain Chaos

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It's not just about IEP. The press release on the RMT website has listed 16x as part of the dispute too. Plan is to transfer door operation on Turbo routes. This wasn't mentioned before.
 

Sleepy

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Ben Rule still trying to screw train crew over then ! If East Coast can agree to retain guard on identical New trains why can't FGW ?? <(
 

BestWestern

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Can anyone tell me why a strike is needed now (other than for a weekend off)? The company say they are not planning single manning, although that may depend on how you define DOO, and will employ more rather than fewer staff. Clearly the Union do not believe them, but the trains have not even been built yet. The Union could threaten to 'black' the new trains when they arrive if there has been no agreement but they still have about two years to discuss this - I cannot see how the Union can say that they have no alternative but to strike now.

Are you serious?! You could try reading the thread...

As for ' a weekend off ', it may come as a surprise to you to learn that staff striking lose that day's pay. People are sacrificing in order to protect their future jobs here.

Don't feel overly obliged to post a reply, I won't mind if you don't :roll: :roll:
 

the sniper

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The Union could threaten to 'black' the new trains when they arrive if there has been no agreement but they still have about two years to discuss this - I cannot see how the Union can say that they have no alternative but to strike now.

'Black' a train that can run without you? What's the point? No kit kats sold that day...
 

455driver

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Ben Rule still trying to screw train crew over then ! If East Coast can agree to retain guard on identical New trains why can't FGW ?? <(

Because the DAFT have told FGW to get this DOO scheme in!

Oh nice move from Mark Hopwood at the end of the meeting to 'nip out and type something up', this being the DOO proposals that will transfer with the 165/166's to Bristol. <D
 

BestWestern

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Ben Rule still trying to screw train crew over then ! If East Coast can agree to retain guard on identical New trains why can't FGW ?? <(

Well, according to FGW "Their passengers are different to ours."

That's the reasoning for doing without buffets, so perhaps thay don't need Guards for the same reason!? :roll:
 

FordFocus

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Well, according to FGW "Their passengers are different to ours."


That's the reasoning for doing without buffets, so perhaps thay don't need Guards for the same reason!? :roll:

It's code for...

First = Don't give a toss about passenger comfort or safety critical staff been removed from trains (IEP can run DOO without a guard during "disruption") and doing on the cheap whilst damaging morale and revenue

Virgin = Enhancing service and keeping safety critical staff onboard
 

455driver

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It's code for...

First at DaFTs request= Don't give a toss about passenger comfort or safety critical staff been removed from trains (IEP can run DOO without a guard during "disruption") and doing on the cheap whilst damaging morale and revenue

Virgin = Enhancing service and keeping safety critical staff onboard until the end of the franchise.

At which point the specification will require those IEPs to be worked DOO as well ensuring higher profits for the franchisee!
 

Robertj21a

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It's code for...

First = Don't give a toss about passenger comfort or safety critical staff been removed from trains (IEP can run DOO without a guard during "disruption") and doing on the cheap whilst damaging morale and revenue

Virgin = Enhancing service and keeping safety critical staff onboard

.....and there was me reading various other threads where Virgin/Branson/Souter were supposed to be the most appalling train operator.

Is it now FGW/GWR ?
 

FordFocus

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There are a few vocal people on here that start topics about various TOCs and their bad experiences.

Seen a topic on here that Virgin West Coast are the worst TOC in living memory because the quiet zone was removed.....
 

jimm

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It's code for...

First = Don't give a toss about passenger comfort or safety critical staff been removed from trains (IEP can run DOO without a guard during "disruption") and doing on the cheap whilst damaging morale and revenue

Virgin = Enhancing service and keeping safety critical staff onboard

Except, of course, that in reality, it isn't Virgin at all. If Sir Brian owns 90 per cent of East Coast, he calls the shots, not Sir Richard. And First is running a direct award franchise, not one won in an open competition, so DfT's attitude, expectations and demands on First are likely to be different - such as facing down the RMT on DOO for IEP. Sir Brian might just like avoiding a confrontation with the RMT for the time being and letting FGW take the heat. He probably still carries the scars of SWT's attempt to introduce DOO in 1998.

IEP is equipped to run DOO any time you like. And how is it going to damage revenue? I've seen many arguments advanced here but that's a new one and seems highly unlikely given the trends in use of the railways, whoever is responsible for opening and closing train doors.

And it is a lot easier to give EC maintenance staff guarantees about the future when Hitachi is going to take on Craigentinny (which looks likely to also have work on Scotrail HSTs and the AT200 emus), Bounds Green and Ferme Park depots - with Doncaster being the only new build site - so the staff will be covered by TUPE. Whereas in GW-land all the IEP depots will be new, or reactivated (North Pole), bar whatever AT300 work goes to Laira.

The initial GW batch of IEPs is very firmly a DfT-specified train, probably just to prove that after so many years of faffing around, the civil servants could actually deliver something, whereas the AT300 is clearly more First Group's baby, so there probably is more room for manoeuvre and considering what sort of catering is appropriate on services where the average journey time is going to be a fair bit longer than on 800/801-served GW routes, a factor which may also have influenced DfT"s less dictatorial approach on the idea of buffets on EC 800/801 sets.

As for the idea Virgin is enhancing service, that one will have a lot of passengers on both EC and WC services rolling in the aisles. I doubt those who up to now have been using railcard discounted off-peak tickets on peak West Coast trains feel that their service is being enhanced as of September 6. Nor those who used to be in EC's rewards scheme.
 
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Carlisle

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Well said in the above post Jim, simply adopting Mr Souters policy of appeasement as he's done with DOO on SWT and VTEC will just bring us more strikes and disputes over more issues long into the future. Remember BR introduced most of its DOO schemes without any strikes,wasn't perfect I know but management knew clearly where they were heading
 
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Captain Chaos

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Well said in the above post Jim, simply adopting Mr Souters policy of appeasement as he's done with DOO on SWT and VTEC will just bring us more strikes and disputes over more issues long into the future. Remember BR inntroduced most of its DOO schemes without any strikes,

And what happened to all the staff? Current FGW DOO policy is to have a TE or revenue inspector boarda train every now and then. It's patchy to see staff at best. Even worse in the evening. If they're happy to run these services this way then they will be happy to run IEP and all future services the same way, surely?
 

Carlisle

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And what happened to all the staff? Current FGW DOO policy is to have a TE or revenue inspector boarda train every now and then. It's patchy to see staff at best. Even worse in the evening. If they're happy to run these services this way then they will be happy to run IEP and all future services the same way, surely?

I totally agree with you there , proper long term agreements are needed to ensure all trains would be manned except perhaps the odd time in exceptional circumstances
 

Captain Chaos

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I totally agree with you there , proper long term agreements are needed to ensure all trains would be manned except perhaps the odd time in exceptional circumstances

I'd settle for that. I appreciate times change. But staff do need to be kept on the trains. It's what the passengers want. They shouldn't be expected to pay more and get less.
 

regulation9

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That is what is potentially happening on out TOC. With a young woman losing a limb at West Wickham due to the use of DOO. If there was a Guard then IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

If that is not a clear case for the prevention of further introduction of DOO then what is ? How many more lost limbs will there be before people get the point.

How many more Drivers will face court action ?

Ask FGW if they are prepared to accept liability.

While I can absolutely understand that people have different views about this issue it simply isn't true that dispatch incidents like West Wickham would not happen with a Guard on board. Elsewhere I in this thread (post #1660) I linked some detailed statistics about PTI fatalities since 2001 for guarded and non guarded trains. Basically no difference between the two types (2 guarded 1 DOO).

Here is an incident where a fatality was caused on a guarded train.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/850.html
The court case actually raised the issue of no droplight windows for guards. Perhaps CCTV cameras are a solution to that problem?

Here is a RAIB report into a trap and drag incident on a TPE guarded train. Yes there was an issue with the interlock but the guard didn't spot the trapped person:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/410616/140918_R192014_Newcastle.pdf

The last PTI fatality was on a guarded train:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/410810/121127_R222012_James_Street.pdf

Yes we may have opinions about this but the debate isn't helped by ignoring some of the facts.
 

LateThanNever

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Here is an incident where a fatality was caused on a guarded train.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/850.html
The court case actually raised the issue of no droplight windows for guards. Perhaps CCTV cameras are a solution to that problem?
Why can't the guard view the departure through an open door? Of course it is more dangerous for him - but that is what he's paid for! Those that think that he'd be submerged by pasengers trying to board should look to Liverpool or abroad and - if they are really precious - the installation of a catering style chain curtain to keep out the great and daring unwashed on the really busy routes.
 
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