VTWC Facing Industrial Action By On-Board Staff

[Mag_seven]

i noticed some non uniformed virgin people dispatching trains at MKC this week. I wonder what they were doing.

Err dispatching trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

i noticed some non uniformed virgin people dispatching trains at MKC this week. I wonder what they were doing.

Training managers to do it during the strike?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Part of the intent is of course to try and undermine the staff with whom the company has a dispute, as well as keeping a few trains running. The relevant standards bodies should be all over it, as quite patently it is not to the normally required levels of safety - safety critical railway staff are trained according to set standards, if TOCs could get away with training people in a few days they wouldn't stretch it out for months just for a laugh - but sadly the politics of breaking the unions is obviously of far greater importance, and so it is allowed to continue.

Well exactly.

Training from scratch for a Guard is somewhere around 6 months. You can cut this down a bit if you have less routes to learn, and increase it a bit if you work many and varied types of rolling stock. The training generally follows industry standards and covers all sorts of things. But even if you took out the majority of the route and traction learning you would still need a good couple of weeks to a month to do all the relevant safety training, rule book training, train evacuation, signalling systems, PTS etc. Then you need at least a day or so on each type of traction you need to learn, then route learning has defined standards of how many trips you need to do - I am just learning an extra route - and only part of it, and the standard is 6 trips over 3 days, with a minimum 2 hours at the 2 major stations en route to learn the platforms, features, signals, TRTS buttons etc. After all that you need to spend a good number of days and shifts - up to couple of weeks - with a minder making sure you are confident and capable to be let loose on your own.

If the TOCS could cut this down to only a few days all the time I am sure they would. Why waste months when you can do the training in a few days?

Yet when a strike is called previously untrained managers and office staff are ordered (and I know this was the case at Northern, there was certainly no choice given in the matter) to train as a guard. That training takes less than a week. And then they are deemed Ok to go out and do a job which would normally takes months to qualify for fully.

How does that work?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Found this front page staring at me in Sainsburys today. http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/virgin-ridiculous-£1-billion-poor-train-service

Corporate bully Richard Branson will be pulling gold out of his Christmas pudding this year as new figures showed his Virgin Trains firm raked in more than £1 billion despite a history of poor service.
Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union members on Virgin’s West Coast line are set to walk out today in a dispute over workplace equality and justice as it was revealed that Mr Branson’s company made whopping profits on the service last year from passenger revenue alone.
The company made an astonishing £46.33 per train mile, with Mr Branson filling his boots while rail fares continue to rocket.

More illiterate economics from the RMT and their press friends.
The impression is given that VT makes £43.33 per train mile in profit.
In fact that's the VT overall revenue figure (£1.1billion), and doesn't count costs at all.
VT actually makes about 6% profit (£24m, or about 1.3p per train mile).
Good to see the purveyers of fake news are so creative.
The ORR reports give the mileage stats: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/25122/virgin-trains-west-coast-factsheet-1617.pdf
and the Stagecoach annual report gives the financials (p13, note the figures are Stagecoach's 49% share: http://www.stagecoach.com/~/media/F...Attachments/media/press/pr2017/2017-06-28.pdf
Revenue and profits for the first half of 2017/18 are down somewhat.

 

[driver_m]

Found this front page staring at me in Sainsburys today. http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/virgin-ridiculous-£1-billion-poor-train-service


More illiterate economics from the RMT and their press friends.
The impression is given that VT makes £43.33 per train mile in profit.
In fact that's the VT overall revenue figure (£1.1billion), and doesn't count costs at all.
VT actually makes about 6% profit (£24m, or about 1.3p per train mile).
Good to see the purveyers of fake news are so creative.
The ORR reports give the mileage stats: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/25122/virgin-trains-west-coast-factsheet-1617.pdf
and the Stagecoach annual report gives the financials (p13, note the figures are Stagecoach's 49% share: http://www.stagecoach.com/~/media/F...Attachments/media/press/pr2017/2017-06-28.pdf
Revenue and profits for the first half of 2017/18 are down somewhat.

Ooh, the mainstream media never twist statistics to suit their own agenda do they? Your presentation of fact is no better than theirs by showing only one side.

 

[Carlisle]

Ooh, the mainstream media never twist statistics to suit their own agenda do they? Your presentation of fact is no better than theirs by showing only one side.

Nothing stopping drivers each donating a days salary to the lowest paid staff if everyone on Virgin is now suddenly so very concerned about equality, even those evil MPs have made similar gestures in the past for various causes I believe

 

[pt_mad]

Nothing stopping drivers each donating a days salary to the lowest paid staff if everyone on Virgin is now suddenly so very concerned about equality, even those evil MPs have made similar gestures in the past for various causes I believe

Why should driver's donate it?

The general consensus across the uk is that they are generally getting more and more fed up of this capitalist arrangement, and if things continue as they are generally, there is not going to be much a bright future for our children, as it seems to be more of a survival of the fittest type society.

 

[Hellfire]

If shareholders didn’t invest their cash into companies they wouldn’t exist. What shareholders get is just a small percentage return for their investment. Directors get paid for doing a job. Who are these ‘private individuals’ you mention?

 

[pt_mad]

If shareholders didn’t invest their cash into companies they wouldn’t exist. What shareholders get is just a small percentage return for their investment. Directors get paid for doing a job. Who are these ‘private individuals’ you mention?

Wouldn't the railways exist without shareholders then? East Coast seemed to do ok.

 

[XDM]

Well exactly.

Training from scratch for a Guard is somewhere around 6 months.

If the TOCS could cut this down to only a few days all the time I am sure they would. Why waste months when you can do the training in a few days?

Yet when a strike is called previously untrained managers and office staff are ordered (and I know this was the case at Northern, there was certainly no choice given in the matter) to train as a guard. That training takes less than a week. And then they are deemed Ok to go out and do a job which would normally takes months
How does that work?

Perfectly well. Has anyone been hurt or died due to one week trained guards? Answer no one even scratched.

 

[Hadders]

Wouldn't the railways exist without shareholders then? East Coast seemed to do ok.

British Rail was starved of investment. Our public services are consistently short of money....

 

[Starmill]

Has anyone been hurt or died due to one week trained guards? Answer no one even scratched.

Risk =/= number of people 'scratched'.

 

[CN75]

Well exactly.

Training from scratch for a Guard is somewhere around 6 months. You can cut this down a bit if you have less routes to learn, and increase it a bit if you work many and varied types of rolling stock. The training generally follows industry standards and covers all sorts of things. But even if you took out the majority of the route and traction learning you would still need a good couple of weeks to a month to do all the relevant safety training, rule book training, train evacuation, signalling systems, PTS etc. Then you need at least a day or so on each type of traction you need to learn, then route learning has defined standards of how many trips you need to do - I am just learning an extra route - and only part of it, and the standard is 6 trips over 3 days, with a minimum 2 hours at the 2 major stations en route to learn the platforms, features, signals, TRTS buttons etc. After all that you need to spend a good number of days and shifts - up to couple of weeks - with a minder making sure you are confident and capable to be let loose on your own.

If the TOCS could cut this down to only a few days all the time I am sure they would. Why waste months when you can do the training in a few days?

Yet when a strike is called previously untrained managers and office staff are ordered (and I know this was the case at Northern, there was certainly no choice given in the matter) to train as a guard. That training takes less than a week. And then they are deemed Ok to go out and do a job which would normally takes months to qualify for fully.

How does that work?

Training levels are different at each TOC for all grades. Each one just has to cover the same general set. Guard route learning, for instance, is to know as much as the TOC believes is necessary to comply with the rule book saying route knowledge for the entire route. The days of carrying a book or IPad with pictures of where to find a signal on a platform are just around the corner. There is no standard on route knowledge nationally, no minimum trips, just the approval of the ORR needed for whatever the TOC wants. The amount of strikes will have definitely helped many TOCs have contingency plans and snip training courses, cutting down all the standards that were agreed in the past. RMT has never been any good at knowing the threat of strikes is more powerful than showing their weakness with an actual strike.

Up until recently operational guards were justified by NRN radio and absolute block, but times have changed and the trains and driver can do the operational stuff, then there are cameras for the stops at platforms. The biggest and totally legitimate justification now is passengers who need guards in emergencies and day to day for care, assistance and tickets on the trains. It’s never easy accepting bits of a job has become obselete but it’s time for some reality. If some guards came out of the back cabs and met the people who can justify their job security by checking their tickets it would be a step in the right direction. But doing good customer service and enthusiastic ticket checks just gets slagged off. Some TOCs are miles ahead of others there.

 

[driver_m]

Training levels are different at each TOC for all grades. Each one just has to cover the same general set. Guard route learning, for instance, is to know as much as the TOC believes is necessary to comply with the rule book saying route knowledge for the entire route. The days of carrying a book or IPad with pictures of where to find a signal on a platform are just around the corner. There is no standard on route knowledge nationally, no minimum trips, just the approval of the ORR needed for whatever the TOC wants. The amount of strikes will have definitely helped many TOCs have contingency plans and snip training courses, cutting down all the standards that were agreed in the past. RMT has never been any good at knowing the threat of strikes is more powerful than showing their weakness with an actual strike.

Up until recently operational guards were justified by NRN radio and absolute block, but times have changed and the trains and driver can do the operational stuff, then there are cameras for the stops at platforms. The biggest and totally legitimate justification now is passengers who need guards in emergencies and day to day for care, assistance and tickets on the trains. It’s never easy accepting bits of a job has become obselete but it’s time for some reality. If some guards came out of the back cabs and met the people who can justify their job security by checking their tickets it would be a step in the right direction. But doing good customer service and enthusiastic ticket checks just gets slagged off. Some TOCs are miles ahead of others there.

I hate using this this phrase. But I think you'll find that they're still needed for emergency protection and such if I get incapacitated. The Watford tunnel being a prime and recent example. GSM is far from perfect as I have found out numerous times.

 

[LowLevel]

I hate using this this phrase. But I think you'll find that they're still needed for emergency protection and such if I get incapacitated. The Watford tunnel being a prime and recent example. GSM is far from perfect as I have found out numerous times.

Everytime we get comfortable with GSMR something else happens to knock your confidence. Whether it's refusing to connect calls due to losing signal, it not being able to track properly on some lines, or little things like a HST not receiving an emergency broadcast and passing through a fatality scene at linespeed. It's not all things to all people as it's sometimes made out to be (though I concede it is very useful).

 

[Randomer]

... or little things like a HST not receiving an emergency broadcast and passing through a fatality scene at linespeed.

Where did that happen?

I'd be really interested to see the actual contracted service levels for GSMR (which to my knowledge are not in the public domain) and compare them to the contract for Airwave (which the basic levels are, users can pay for enhanced service in buildings and capacity in built up areas). The technology is pretty similar, with differences more in technicalities and Airwave has had enough problems.

 

[Jimini]

<snip> or little things like a HST not receiving an emergency broadcast and passing through a fatality scene at linespeed.

Where did that happen?

Indeed: when did this happen?

 

[driver_m]

Indeed: did this happen?

Why are you questioning him like that? He's hardly going to make it up.

 

[driver_m]

I heard an awful GSM broadcast (in sound quality terms) during an emergency stop situation recently, kept breaking up and took a few goes for all to realise where and what was happening.

And as for the comment about has anyone been hurt? Someone else used a dehavilland comet comparison recently. So here's another, It's a bit like saying, "yeah it flies!" In the sense that yes, it will, but it probably won't end well.

 

[LowLevel]

Of course it happened. It was one of the stations south of Bedford on the Midland Mainline. Might have been last year, possibly the year before.

I believe the line it was on was physically unaffected however the emergency broadcast wasn't received by the train as it should have been and it ran through. They may well have worked out why it happened afterwards but naturally that wouldn't generally filter down to us.

Again I don't know whether it's been fixed or not but on the Skegness line there was an issue with trains tracking between the boxes. No DOO services on there anyway except the Boston steel and RHTT/test train.

 

[Jimini]

Why are you questioning him like that? He's hardly going to make it up.

Calm down; I'm not disputing that it happened. I'm just curious as to how, when and where etc. No need for that response.

 

[Jimini]

Of course it happened. It was one of the stations south of Bedford on the Midland Mainline. Might have been last year, possibly the year before.

I believe the line it was on was physically unaffected however the emergency broadcast wasn't received by the train as it should have been and it ran through. They may well have worked out why it happened afterwards but naturally that wouldn't generally filter down to us.

Again I don't know whether it's been fixed or not but on the Skegness line there was an issue with trains tracking between the boxes. No DOO services on there anyway except the Boston steel and RHTT/test train.

Again: not disputing that. Thanks for the info!

 

[driver_m]

Calm down; I'm not disputing that it happened. I'm just curious as to how, when and where etc. No need for that response.

No I won't calm down Even low level himself has replied ',of course out happened" Try asking the question in a better way then. This forum is full of people questioning staff as if they don't know what they're talking about. Look at your question again.

 

[Jimini]

No I won't calm down Even low level himself has replied ',of course out happened" Try asking the question in a better way then. This forum is full of people questioning staff as if they don't know what they're talking about. Look at your question again.

Hello there.

I have already edited my original post, and PMd LowLevel to apologise. There was no accusatory tone intended in my original post. Apols if it came across that way. As you were!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Perfectly well. Has anyone been hurt or died due to one week trained guards? Answer no one even scratched.

I am not saying they have been hurt (although there have certainly been a few near misses and general c*ck ups).

That aside I don't actually recall saying that a 1 week trained guard was no good. I was merely pointing out the huge differences in training for fully qualified guards and strike breaking guards.

If 1 week training is acceptable then why not do it all the time for everybody?

At least that would solve and tick one of the DfT "we hate guards because..." boxes, by saving the TOCs pot loads of money on training costs.

 

[Dieseldriver]

On the subject of GSMR I am personally aware of an incident where a Driver pressed the REC button and the GSMR shut down and had to be rebooted as the call connected. I am also aware of an incident where a Signaller sent out an 'All Stop' and there was a train in the affected area that never received it and continued at linespeed regardless (very long signalling sections with high linespeed, luckily there wasn't an immediate risk to safety in this instance).
I'm also aware of numerous incidents where Drivers have received a REC but then the call has dropped out.
I'm also aware of GSMR faults where the speaker has ceased working (unbeknown to the Driver) which has meant any audible noises (such as the ringing tone or even a REC) would have been completely missed unless the Driver just happened to be looking at the GSMR screen at that exact moment (unlikely).
These are all events that I have personally witnessed or spoken to those involved about so it's a safe bet that these happen relatively regularly countrywide.
GSMR is fantastic when it works correctly and has undoubtedly prevented some nasty incidents. However, it would be foolish to rely on it as it does has its limitations and faults.

 

[Mintona]

I’ve been lucky so far in that I’ve bever needed to use the red button. However the last time I tried to use the yellow button it took three attempts to actually connect to the signaller rather than the three tone ‘call failed’ sound.

 

[Goldfish62]

Wouldn't the railways exist without shareholders then? East Coast seemed to do ok.

Of course East Coast had shareholders. All limited liability companies have shareholders, even if it's just one and in this case being a government agency.

 

[furnessvale]

Of course East Coast had shareholders. All limited liability companies have shareholders, even if it's just one and in this case being a government agency.

I seem to recall that, even when BR was a nationalised company, government demanded eyewatering levels of return on investment expenditure, far greater than a private company would expect, hobbling BRs ability to obtain new investment money, or to reinvest what money it did make.

 

[pt_mad]

I seem to recall that, even when BR was a nationalised company, government demanded eyewatering levels of return on investment expenditure, far greater than a private company would expect, hobbling BRs ability to obtain new investment money, or to reinvest what money it did make.

Although that money did go back onto the state which is obviously good for citizens and taxpayers. Just a view.