VTWC doors closing 4 minutes before departure

[herschell]

Quite right, I've found that by looking on Realtime the 0940 GLC-EUS regularly departs 1 minute early, the 2 minute cut off is ample time in my opinion

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think your friend may have exaggerated the time he was tgefe before departure or his phone/watch was wrong.

I'd be very surprised if he couldn't board 4mims before departure.

My toc has a 30s policy, the guard will start the door closing procedure 30s before the timed departure. The aim is for the wheels to be rolling by the xx00.

So scheduled departure is 16:22 then the guard blows whistle at 1621:30 and then aim is the train is moving by 1622:00...

That's what surprised me, about how he got turned away so early!

 

[Llanigraham]

True, however I strongly believe that if a train departs at xx:30 that's when the doors shut and not some random period beforehand which varies not only between the train operators but also the same operators at different stations and I expect if you asked most passengers they would agree with the above. if needed adjust the timetable accordingly to accommodate that.

At the very least have a standardised figure eg 1min for Intercity trains and 30seconds for regional trains.

The time stated is the time the train starts ROLLING, therefore the doors have to be shut before then.
Look up the definition of DEPART in the dictionary.

 

[cjmillsnun]

True, however I strongly believe that if a train departs at xx:30 that's when the doors shut and not some random period beforehand which varies not only between the train operators but also the same operators at different stations and I expect if you asked most passengers they would agree with the above. if needed adjust the timetable accordingly to accommodate that.

At the very least have a standardised figure eg 1min for Intercity trains and 30seconds for regional trains.

How many trains have I been on of late and they have cleared the platforms by departure time.

No if a train departs at xx:30, that's when the wheels are supposed to start rolling. The hint is in the word "departs"

 

[bb21]

I expect if you asked most passengers they would agree with the above.

If you ask people who just missed their trains then you would, of course.

The vast majority would most definitely not otherwise. Passengers want a punctual service, that means departing at the time stated.

Boarding at stated departure time means no right time departure.

 

[transmanche]

Passengers want a punctual service, that means departing at the time stated.

Boarding at stated departure time means no right time departure.

With so many differences in times between the WTT and the public timetable, I'm surprised that any train departs 'at the time stated'.

One simple compromise might be that the public timetable departure time is when the doors start to close and the WTT departure time is when the wheels start rolling.

 

[PermitToTravel]

One simple compromise might be that the public timetable departure time is when the doors start to close and the WTT departure time is when the wheels start rolling.

Isn't this literally the reason there are two timetables? No other system makes any sense...

 

[185]

:40 shut doors :50 shut yer local door :55 buzz buzz :00 reproduce awayyyyy

...or did I imagine this in guards school

 

[bb21]

One simple compromise might be that the public timetable departure time is when the doors start to close and the WTT departure time is when the wheels start rolling.

It's a tricky one. Ignoring the issue of certain TOCs not liking their headline journey times taking a hit, you will inevitably get people moaning about not being able to board with the doors closed for an extended period of time yet nothing happening (eg. 10-15 seconds), and passengers being unfairly punished because dispatch need not take a whole minute (as GBTT only work with 1-minute increments yet the WTT work with half-minutes).

It may just be possible to implement with intercity services which take longer to dispatch, but with regional services where dispatch is quicker, it is virtually a no-go.

I would say T-40 or T-45 is what many classes of modern rolling stock require for the dispatch process to be comprehensive and staff not be unduly rushed. T-30 can be adequate for older stock (or some classes of newer stock) with sliding doors and those quick to power up, but can still in many cases feel rushed for longer sets.

On our patch, regardless of the WTT timings, as soon as dispatch is complete (and dispatch goes by GBTT time), the train leaves, but very rarely more than 10-15 seconds earlier than GBTT, assuming correct procedures were followed. I have observed a few other routes doing the same too, and imo it is the way it should be, because GBTT is what the customers see. A well-publicised message on door closing time is the best compromise solution to tackling this issue of discrepancy in timings, because for non-intercity services, you do not normally require a whole minute to dispatch a train, so the timetable cannot simply be padded for one minute (the smallest increment in GBTT).

A nationwide standard could help, and I think that is a good point. A nationwide T-40 or T-45 standard for non-intercity operations is what I would be happy with.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's a tricky one. Ignoring the issue of certain TOCs not liking their headline journey times taking a hit,

Is it not dishonest to exclude time from the journey time by effectively reserving it? There's no doubt in my mind that headline times should be measured from doors locked to doors unlocked.

you will inevitably get people moaning about not being able to board with the doors closed for an extended period of time yet nothing happening (eg. 10-15 seconds), and passengers being unfairly punished because dispatch need not take a whole minute (as GBTT only work with 1-minute increments yet the WTT work with half-minutes).

I don't follow. Why can't half-minutes be allowed for dispatch? As you say, the WTT is more granular than the GBTT. In a truly ideal world, you could even allow LU style quarter minute resolution in the WTT, or to the nearest second on ATO lines.

A nationwide standard could help, and I think that is a good point. A nationwide T-40 or T-45 standard for non-intercity operations is what I would be happy with.

But the location varies the time dispatch takes in just the way that the intercitiness of the stock does. Why not embed it in the rules of the plan and abstract it away from passengers by using both timetables to good effect?

 

[bb21]

Is it not dishonest to exclude time from the journey time by effectively reserving it? There's no doubt in my mind that headline times should be measured from doors locked to doors unlocked.

I was just explaining potential sources of resistance. I'm not a fan of it myself. I find it a bit cheeky to say the least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't follow. Why can't half-minutes be allowed for dispatch? As you say, the WTT is more granular than the GBTT. In a truly ideal world, you could even allow LU style quarter minute resolution in the WTT, or to the nearest second on ATO lines.

Take a simple example, WTT path at 1200. To cater for dispatch, GBTT will have to say 1159.

It does not take a whole minute to dispatch, so you end up with all doors closed at 1159.30, but the train just sits there. Everyone gets frustrated. (Or it can simply go, but see below.)

At the moment with T-30 or T-40, pretty much by the time dispatch is done, you are close to the GBTT time, so the driver can simply take power and go. On most lines which are at capacity, this works well because things get carefully planned so signals get cleared by the previous train and come off at around the right time for this process to be done in good time.

Now by increasing the discrepancy from a uniform 30 seconds, for example, to 30 seconds or 1 minute, firstly questions will need to be asked as to whether there is room to accommodate this increase, as signals have to come off before dispatch can start. It will incur a time penalty, hence potentially capacity, than simply increasing dispatch time to a uniform T-40, which is likely to have a lesser impact. (That is before we start considering whether a train booked WTT at half minutes, say, 1200.30 gets put down in GBTT as 1200 or 1159. The former meaning the train never leaves at the stated time of 1200, the latter too much time hanging around / potential lack of capacity. Of course we could decide that the train simply leaves at the end of dispatch even if almost a whole minute before GBTT, but that brings with it its own set of issues, not to mention that on busy lines, it is almost impossible for trains to be able to regularly leave almost a whole minute before its WTT slot as there would not have been room for the signal to come off this early.)

There is no perfect solution to this. All solutions have their own merits and downfalls. Whatever is implemented, you will end up with a subgroup of passengers complaining. Obviously this is just my own opinion so you know, there may be a better idea out there I have not thought of, but I don't feel this one is particularly sound.

Uniform T-40/T-45 may not be implementable if in many locations signals are only coming off not long before T-30. It will of course require more extensive research should this be considered a possibility, but at least, I think it is a more realistic prospect.

It may even be the case that the current system we have, with local variations, is the best compromise.

It's late and I have rambled on, so if I have managed to confuse anyone I send my apologies.

But the location varies the time dispatch takes in just the way that the intercitiness of the stock does. Why not embed it in the rules of the plan and abstract it away from passengers by using both timetables to good effect?

Sorry I don't follow.

 

[philthetube]

He had 40 minutes to transfer from Victoria, but Southern delays cut this down to 20.

I am surprised that 15 minutes from train arriving at Victoria to being down the ramp at Euston is possible. Eight mins on train plus escalators, three gate lines etc. sound tight to me.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's the departure time. If I have a flight that is at 10:30 I need to be on the plane a lot before that. It's a long distance train. Two minutes is not unreasonable.

Alas the railway seems to be aping aviation when it should be possible for it to be much better in this regard. The timetable should take account of the time people can catch the train, not vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ITake a simple example, WTT path at 1200. To cater for dispatch, GBTT will have to say 1159.

That, I suspect, is how it used to be done.

 

[ic250]

Some comments from someone not au-fay with the procedures.

1) Why does the dispatch time vary for intercity and regional trains? Surely the process should take the same amount of time whatever the distance the train is travelling? I would have thought the only thing that affects this is whether a train has automatic doors or not.

2) (related to above) Why do different TOCs have different dispatch times? A standardised time across the industry would make it easier for passengers to know where they stand. It's this type of fragmentation which leads to frequent calls for nationalisation.

3) Why do Network Rail only announce the platform of intercity trains at major termini c.10 minutes before they leave? This is always very frustrating!

 

[The Planner]

With so many differences in times between the WTT and the public timetable, I'm surprised that any train departs 'at the time stated'.

Remember that the PTT should never have a departure after the WTT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't follow. Why can't half-minutes be allowed for dispatch? As you say, the WTT is more granular than the GBTT. In a truly ideal world, you could even allow LU style quarter minute resolution in the WTT, or to the nearest second on ATO lines.

Would make things a bit messy, TRUST only ever rounds down to a whole minute anyway. It has been talked about though Im not sure what 15 second increments in the WTT would benefit.

But the location varies the time dispatch takes in just the way that the intercitiness of the stock does. Why not embed it in the rules of the plan and abstract it away from passengers by using both timetables to good effect?

There are no rules about using differentials for the PTT that I can remember seeing, just the dwell times at stations for particular stock. We are interested in the WTT, if a TOC wants differentials on the PTT then they ask us to put them in.

 

[47802]

If you ask people who just missed their trains then you would, of course.

The vast majority would most definitely not otherwise. Passengers want a punctual service, that means departing at the time stated.

Boarding at stated departure time means no right time departure.

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

As for the term 'depart' I'm sure many would regard closing the doors as the start of the departure.

I would suggest that's its mainly the railway industry and not the customer that takes your view, along it would seem an ever increasing amount of time that the doors are shut before departure.:-x

 

[Domh245]

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

As for the term 'depart' I'm sure many would regard closing the doors as the start of the departure.

I think that the majority of the passengers would be on board the train already and would be in favour of leaving on time...

 

[47802]

delete

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

As for the term 'depart' I'm sure many would regard closing the doors as the start of the departure.

I would suggest that's its mainly the railway industry and not the customer that takes your view, along it would seem an ever increasing amount of time that the doors are shut before departure.:-x

It's not difficult or onerous, or anti-passenger to expect people to be on the train ready for departure.

 

[DaleCooper]

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

I also disagree with you, the 99% figure you suggest is looking a bit unlikely.

 

[Llanigraham]

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

As for the term 'depart' I'm sure many would regard closing the doors as the start of the departure.

I would suggest that's its mainly the railway industry and not the customer that takes your view, along it would seem an ever increasing amount of time that the doors are shut before departure.:-x

What an exaggeration!!

 

[gray1404]

Its 2 minutes before departure at Euston for Virgin Trains services. It certainly is NOT 4 minutes. If the door were closed anything more then 2 minutes before departure for a Virgin service then I would complain to the company and encourage your friend to do the same.

 

[trainophile]

It's not difficult or onerous, or anti-passenger to expect people to be on the train ready for departure.

Tight connections (but within the stated minimum time) included?

 

[PHILIPE]

I've been wondering if the Minimum Connection allowance for stations takes the door closing process into account

 

[trainophile]

I've been wondering if the Minimum Connection allowance for stations takes the door closing process into account

I asked that on post #17 but no-one answered!

 

[PHILIPE]

I asked that on post #17 but no-one answered!

Missed it, so say I've given it a bump.

 

[Flying Snail]

Tight connections (but within the stated minimum time) included?

Can you provide an example of any station where the minimum connection time is so tight that 30 seconds less would make it a problem?

*And no, not extreme examples of people with severe mobility issues.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tight connections (but within the stated minimum time) included?

Yes, connection times account for the fact you need to be on the train before it leaves...

The connection time at Euston is 15 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you provide an example of any station where the minimum connection time is so tight that 30 seconds less would make it a problem?

Any station where the time is 5 minutes. It simply isn't enough; the standard should be 10 except specific connections effectively guaranteed because of operations to be same or cross platform, e.g. LM to LM/SN at Leighton Buzzard.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hellfire]

Personally I think if you asked 99% of passengers regardless of whether they missed their train or not they would agree with me.

As for the term 'depart' I'm sure many would regard closing the doors as the start of the departure.

I would suggest that's its mainly the railway industry and not the customer that takes your view, along it would seem an ever increasing amount of time that the doors are shut before departure.:-x

This passenger regards departure as when the train starts moving. I invariably catch the 1830 EUS-PRE and I want it to be rolling at 1830. That means the doors are shut, the staff have checked that this is the case and the right away is given. if you started shutting the doors at 1830 it would not be underway for at least another minute or so. VT make it pretty clear at Euston that the doors close 2 minutes prior to departure, which is when the gateline staff shut the doors to the platform.Most regular passengers are aware of that.

I appreciate there are lots of reasons why people fail to make it to the platform on time but that's not the fault of the TOC and paths out of Euston are pretty tight. I strongly suspect the OPs friend was not on the platform 4 minutes before departure as I have never experienced the doors closing that early.