VTEC to drop branding

[GatwickDepress]

I've heard it.

Me too. Ashford Int'l the other day: "Is this the train to Rye?"
"Oh yes, it's the green one, isn't it?"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think anyone in the history of time has ever told a passenger where their train is by describing the livery.

You think wrong.

 

[bramling]

It can also be a bit easier for passengers.

"Which train goes to Euston?"
"The big red and silver one over there."

Not

"Which train goes to Euston?"
"The blue and grey one over there that looks exactly the same as all the other blue and grey ones."

Great - until one comes across a hired-in set (eg the EMT HST on East Coast) or a train in old livery, then this falls down. And would be really helpful at Fenchurch Street where all the trains are in the same livery.

I think this has loads of pitfalls for the unwary, far better to rely on more conventional methods.

 

[najaB]

Great - until one comes across a hired-in set (eg the EMT HST on East Coast) or a train in old livery, then this falls down. And would be really helpful at Fenchurch Street where all the trains are in the same livery.

I think you misunderstand. What I have heard said (and I suspect Neil Williams and GatwickDepress are the same) is not "Your train in half an hour will be red and white" but rather "It's that red and white one over there" (while pointing at it). It goes without saying that if there are two (or more) trains in the same livery you wouldn't then describe them using the livery.

 

[bramling]

I think you misunderstand. What I have heard said (and I suspect Neil Williams and GatwickDepress are the same) is not "Your train in half an hour will be red and white" but rather "It's that red and white one over there" (while pointing at it). It goes without saying that if there are two (or more) trains in the same livery you wouldn't then describe them using the livery.

So better to keep things in one livery and stick with it, than keep changing liveries every time a new franchisee comes along. My point is that the less brands change the more chance of a given service having the same livery on a daily basis.

It doesn't benefit anyone that should, for example, National Express take over First Great Western they could decide to start sticking white vinyls over everything.

To be fair, the railway seems to be moving away from this. Could, for example, the Northern Rail brand survive a change in owning group?

I don't have an issue with new liveries coming in on an occasional basis, applied when trains become due for painting. However I object to vinyls being stuck all over trains just to advertise an owning group.

 

[najaB]

So better to keep things in one livery and stick with it, than keep changing liveries every time a new franchisee comes along. My point is that the less brands change the more chance of a given service having the same livery on a daily basis.

Franchises are notionally let for 10+ year periods, so it's not like liveries will be changing on a daily basis - barring more failures and hand-backs like those that we've seen. And let's face it, different liveries make the railways that much more interesting.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I think you misunderstand. What I have heard said (and I suspect Neil Williams and GatwickDepress are the same) is not "Your train in half an hour will be red and white" but rather "It's that red and white one over there" (while pointing at it). It goes without saying that if there are two (or more) trains in the same livery you wouldn't then describe them using the livery.

Ah, I see. that's happened at Brighton as well, even if there's multiple trains in the same livery - three or four trains in Southern livery, "the green train on the right" is usually used, even if there is no purple or white trains in the vicinity.

 

[bramling]

Franchises are notionally let for 10+ year periods, so it's not like liveries will be changing on a daily basis - barring more failures and hand-backs like those that we've seen. And let's face it, different liveries make the railways that much more interesting.

Fine, but the reality is often different. The East Coast is on its fourth livery in ten years.

A good reason to stick with non-owner-specific brands which can be carried over. Will be interesting to see how long GWR lasts.

 

[HowardGWR]

Will be interesting to see how long GWR lasts.

About 180 years so far.

 

[FordFocus]

I don't think anyone in the history of time has ever told a passenger where their train is by describing the livery.

I do it all the time. "Get on the green train that says Arriva on the side"

 

[tsr]

I don't think anyone in the history of time has ever told a passenger where their train is by describing the livery.

I've done it. Not particularly often (especially now that round here, the purple trains are often coupled to the green ones, or the purple ones run a blue and yellow service, or whatever), but I have certainly done it. Sometimes if a customer has very limited English (say, for example, some of the tourists arriving at Gatwick Airport) it is helpful. If I say that "the red one is fastest" (if it is) it can just be easier...

 

[Stats]

I do it all the time. "Get on the green train that says Arriva on the side"

Where do Arriva operate green trains?

 

[najaB]

Where do Arriva operate green trains?

I'd say this is green, or at least blue-green....

 

[urpert]

And perhaps 'Virgin Electra to...' for the Mk4s that they're proposing to keep on?

Perhaps they could also paint the 91s back into the 'Swallow' livery that should never, ever have been replaced.

 

[sprinterguy]

Perhaps they could also paint the 91s back into the 'Swallow' livery that should never, ever have been replaced.

I'm pretty sure that, had Intercity and a state operated railway endured, that Intercity themselves would have amended and possibly even replaced the Swallow livery (although probably not the swallow brand itself). Most notably at the next refurbishment of the HST fleet, which was due to take place between 1995 and 2000, and then, although of course we'll never know for sure, probably a wholesale redesign when the replacement stock for the HST fleet was introduced in what I imagine would have been the 2010 - 2015 period.

 

[jon0844]

Of course. There's no way that any train today would have the same livery that was present in the 70s or 80s, or early 90s. It's like thinking the internals wouldn't have been stripped out and re-fitted with more modern equipment, different materials, brighter colours etc.

The livery was suited for the time (that's subjective I know) and things move on.

If nothing else, liveries would change just to make things feel new and fresh, even if there was nothing inherently wrong with the previous design.

Just like swapping furniture around in your living room and thinking 'wow, this is SO much better' before changing it back in a few years and thinking THAT was so much better.

 

[sprinterguy]

The livery was suited for the time (that's subjective I know) and things move on.

If nothing else, liveries would change just to make things feel new and fresh, even if there was nothing inherently wrong with the previous design.

Indeed; in the modern era, of digital design and big swirly vinyl wraps that dispense with the need for more than a protective base coat to be painted at all, the late eighties/early nineties predilection for painted stripes and blocks of colour is somewhat dated (even if I do feel personally that they were far better suited to adorning the sides of railway rolling stock).

 

[urpert]

It's more the way the livery treated the cab area of the 91s. Everything they've worn since then has ignored the shape rather than accentuating it.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's more the way the livery treated the cab area of the 91s. Everything they've worn since then has ignored the shape rather than accentuating it.

Except for the new VTEC livery? That's returned to a treatment of the headlight cluster and cabside wraparounds that is not dissimilar to the "Swallow" scheme, if not as striking.

 

[tankmc]

I really don't see the issue. A passenger can be penalised for getting the wrong train from the same train company.

On a side note i agree this whole change of name and branding is stupid. It makes the stations look a mess and a total waste of money. A Franchise is a company running a service under the name of the brand. They should just bring back the names InterCity and Regional. You could even have a Regional Express brand similar to the old alphaline. Who cares who runs it as long as its on time with clean trains and friendly staff.

 

[Darandio]

Who cares who runs it as long as its on time with clean trains and friendly staff.

God forbid, shareholders?

 

[tankmc]

God forbid, shareholders?

Do they though? Surely at the end of the day they just care about profit which would be the same no matter what colour the trains are. For most people there is no choice of who they travel with or if there is they don't choose a service because its virgin or grand central for example. It about times and cost.

 

[JaJaWa]

For most people there is no choice of who they travel with or if there is they don't choose a service because its virgin or grand central for example. It about times and cost.

Uh this is one instance where me and probably many other people will choose between train operators.

 

[NSEFAN]

Uh this is one instance where me and probably many other people will choose between train operators.

Agreed. Intercity journeys are much more prone to free market forces than distress-purchase journeys made by commuters.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Agreed. Intercity journeys are much more prone to free market forces than distress-purchase journeys made by commuters.

I'm not sure I agree.

If I want to travel from Newcastle to London to see friends, I have the exact same choices- train, coach, or private car- that I do if I am commuting to work. If I choose to take the train, I have a choice of one TOC that operate between Newcastle and London.

The only "free market force" on offer is that I can choose to stop at home instead of visiting my friends.

 

[Starmill]

Uh this is one instance where me and probably many other people will choose between train operators.

You'd choose based on what colour it is!?

 

[ScotTrains]

Virgin (west coast) 1st tickets are now accepted for entry into the Virgin east coast lounge at Waverley.
Not sure if Virgin (east coast) tickets are accepted at the Glasgow Central lounge or not though.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I'm not sure I agree.

If I want to travel from Newcastle to London to see friends, I have the exact same choices- train, coach, or private car- that I do if I am commuting to work. If I choose to take the train, I have a choice of one TOC that operate between Newcastle and London.

The only "free market force" on offer is that I can choose to stop at home instead of visiting my friends.

But if GC or Platinum Trains or any other Open Access operator started running from Newcastle then you would have a choice and you might be more inclined to one or the other thanks to their advertising, rolling stock or reputation.

GC out of West Yorkshire are very popular even from Bradford despite the fact that the VTEC trains can be quicker even if you have to change at Leeds. But GC advertise locally and make a big sell of their direct nature.

 

[NSEFAN]

I'm not sure I agree.

If I want to travel from Newcastle to London to see friends, I have the exact same choices- train, coach, or private car- that I do if I am commuting to work. If I choose to take the train, I have a choice of one TOC that operate between Newcastle and London.

The only "free market force" on offer is that I can choose to stop at home instead of visiting my friends.

That's why I used the words "prone to". Here you have a choice of visiting your friends or not, but most people don't have an immediate choice as to where and when they work.

There are a few cases where there is some competition for passengers (London - Birmingham for example), but I will admit that there's not many. In any case, if the service to Newcastle was really bad (or at least perceived as such) then a lot of people would indeed choose to avoid the train for leisure or even one-off business trip purposes.

Meanwhile, jobs are in high demand meaning that people are prepared to accept lower quality of day-to-day travel if it means they can just get employed. Daily commuters are under a lot more pressure to take the train than someone travelling intercity for leisure or "one-off" trips.

 

[TUC]

Do they though? Surely at the end of the day they just care about profit which would be the same no matter what colour the trains are. For most people there is no choice of who they travel with or if there is they don't choose a service because its virgin or grand central for example. It about times and cost.

And it's the desire for profit, together with the competition element where available, that drives down cost by reaching a point where a particular fare level is calculated to maximise the amount of train capacity that is used.