VT in the news.

[dannypye9999]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

 

[wijit]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

I would suggest that you hate that less than disabled people hate assumptions such as yours.

 

[sd0733]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

Yes some do, I had a deaf chap the other day on my train trying it on with his passes from hundreds of miles away and his thumb over the area, he claimed he didn't know etc as is the standard answer to these things but as Tracky said in a previous post it is an awkward one and its a much better idea to report some things to managers than go too far and to get yourself in situations like this TM appears to as your not going to win many friends if you do.
But, There are chancers in all walks of life and a minority of every section of society given any chance of a freebie will push for one. This includes able-bodied, disabled, all religions, races etc. People are people and some of the species are of the mindset to try and push their luck a bit and don't like it when they're rumbled. Some then kick of and do play the disability/race/elderly card, yes but its no different really to any of the idiotic excuses from anybody else often comes out with really when they realise they're going to have to pay.
To me on this one, it seems to be somebody who has had to be alerted to buy a ticket and has then failed the attitude test with the TM and could have been any passenger, disabled or not. (The original story claims the TM shouted etc instantly but I fail to believe that anybody would approach a passenger and shout at them straight off for no real reason and after all the story was written to make out the TM was 100% wrong and passenger perfectly right) However, the TM also has reacted badly and also failed on the attidude test and made the situation worse.

 

[185]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

I tend to agree with this, simply because in a time of serious austerity, local authorities seem to be considering chopping off the free pass 'extras' like trams, trains, and ferries.

The very small minority of elderly and disabled people who misuse their free passes to try claim things they are not entitled to risk spoiling it for the other 99%.

Crewe has a rather decent booking office and most of the staff in there will deal competently with disabled customers on a regular basis.

 

[MarkyT]

Crewe has a rather decent booking office and most of the staff in there will deal competently with disabled customers on a regular basis.

This woman may have become accustomed to buying a ticket on the train, perhaps occasionally 'getting away with it' as others have suggested. However Crewe has no barriers and it is possible to access the station from the car park and access any platform without actually seeing any ticket machine, according to the National Rail station accessibility map. I'm not saying that's an excuse for not having a ticket, but it would certainly help avoid these awkward situations if there was more control over people getting onto the platforms in the first place.

 

[387star]

Where does it state you are not in your right to buy a railcard discount or off peak tickets on a train whilst stations are staffed?
I'm probably too lenient a guard but for me safety is the number one concern
I guess train managers have longer between stations to afford to be picky with tickets

 

[Tracky]

While safety is always the number one priority comments as above make me cringe...
Two questions
Are you a guard?
And
Are you really a guard?

 

[455driver]

How old was the woman?
The article states that she had been registered deaf for 29 years but it doesnt actually say how old she is!
Just because she is registered deaf doesnt mean that she cannot hear at all!

I would hazard a guess that she is a lot older than 29!

 

[ainsworth74]

Where does it state you are not in your right to buy a railcard discount or off peak tickets on a train whilst stations are staffed?
I'm probably too lenient a guard but for me safety is the number one concern
I guess train managers have longer between stations to afford to be picky with tickets

National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket

[...]

If you travel in a train

(a) without a ticket; or

(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;​

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open

and

there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order

and

in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order

OR

(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.​

In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

[...]

 

[87019Chris]

AFAIK the only trains you can board without a ticket if the station is staffed or has ticket machines are Open Access Operators, and I'm only sure that GC do this as for the others I haven't asked or bothered to try it. Such as (b)(ii)

 

[rebmcr]

In the interests of equality, I would like to point out that deaf people are just regular people who happen to not have good hearing, and are just as likely to be a fare-dodger than anybody else. Their disablility doesn't make them stupid; it would not surprise me at all if any of them were exploiting the communication barrier deliberately at various times or even as a matter of course. Equality: everyone might be a scumbag! ;)

On the other hand, I can imagine the TM saying:
"Tickets please..."
"Excuse me, tickets please..."
"Hello, tickets please"
"YOU THERE WITH THE BOOK CAN I SEE YOUR TICKETS?"
— and then it sounds like he completely failed to de-escalate himself after discovering why he was initially ignored (which of course is unacceptable, he should have calmed himself immediately, but does mean he was not being malicious or discriminatory).

 

[455driver]

On the other hand, I can imagine the TM saying:
"Tickets please..."
"Excuse me, tickets please..."
"Hello, tickets please"
"YOU THERE WITH THE BOOK CAN I SEE YOUR TICKETS?"
— and then it sounds like he completely failed to de-escalate himself after discovering why he was initially ignored (which of course is unacceptable, he should have calmed himself immediately, but does mean he was not being malicious or discriminatory).

So you make a guess as to what happened, and then make a statement as if it is fact!

I would like to ask a few questions if I may!
If this person intended to buy a ticket before travelling why didnt they use the TVM (which being deaf has no effect on) and buy the correct ticket?

If this person intended to buy a ticket before travelling why didnt they use the ticket office and write down what they wanted, assuming of course they couldnt actually say it!

If this person intended to buy a ticket on board how come she wasnt looking out for the guard doing the rounds?

This all smacks of a faredodger getting caught and playing the 'I am disabled' card!
The guard may have got it a bit wrong but how many of the ****ters oops I mean tweeters felt sorry for the poor defenceless, disabled passenger and wouldnt have batted an eyelid if a scrote was spoken to in exactly the same way?

We have only got a very one sided view of this incident!

 

[Darandio]

What is the betting that a large wedge of vouchers are already winging there way to the woman right now?

 

[6Gman]

In the interests of equality, I would like to point out that deaf people are just regular people who happen to not have good hearing, and are just as likely to be a fare-dodger than anybody else. Their disablility doesn't make them stupid; it would not surprise me at all if any of them were exploiting the communication barrier deliberately at various times or even as a matter of course. Equality: everyone might be a scumbag! ;)

Quite! People with disabilities such as hearing or sight impairment can be as good/bad, law-abiding/devious, heroic/cowardly as all the rest of us.

 

[bnm]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

I really hate it when this forum goes on the attack against a disabled person daring to highlight shabby treatment on the part of the rail industry and its staff. We have independent witnesses to this incident, yet that apparently isn't enough.

Accusations of fare dodging despite DSB Railcard holders being permitted by Virgin Trains to buy on board.

 

[yorkie]

AFAIK the only trains you can board without a ticket if the station is staffed or has ticket machines are Open Access Operators, and I'm only sure that GC do this as for the others I haven't asked or bothered to try it. Such as (b)(ii)

East Coast also sell the full range on-board, where there was "opportunity to buy", if the passenger is a Disabled Railcard holder. That applies regardless of disability.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I really hate it when disabled people use their disability as their tool to try and get freebies

I really hate it when large coffee shop chains employ people on minimum wage and then avoid paying tax - unfortunately they have the law on their side. In the grand scheme of things someone less fortunate than most of us suffering a disability attempting to save a few pennies seems to be the greater criminal in the eyes of many.

 

[pt_mad]

Lets face it (and I say this as a member of rail staff), it is much easier to give yourself an easy life and just sell the ticket.

Yes there are rules, which some do not want to follow, but when the time comes on the train and you face ticket-less individual or group, by debating the toss or insisting they are wrong you can sometimes just open yourself up to abuse or complaints.

Just as in this case, if the guard had just sold the ticket no questions then there would be no complaint and all individuals involved would have continued with their happy(ish) day.

This is why half the time you board the train with a ticket, and you just see the guard selling a ticket in the next seat to someone who could just be attempting to dodge with no questions asked.

A. because it is easier and both parties stay happy.

B. It is still revenue for the company.

C. No complaints are made.


If a complaint is made even though the member of staff is probably innocent the upset and worry of the investigation itself will likely make them think twice again about protesting over selling an off peak to the next but one station.

 

[sd0733]

Exactly my view aswell if I'm honest. I know its technically wrong but at the end of the day if you're fairly painlessly getting something out of people then everyones happy. I could spend 10 minutes arguing with everyone who needs to buy a ticket that they're having an anytime single and get through 5 people between stops or I can sell what they ask for (and tell them that I should be charging more than this and others won't be so leniant/ you'll be penalty fared) and get through 30 so more money for the company and as you say nobody complains and far less likely to be assaulted, verbally or physically.
Yes, I know its wrong to be that way really but if you're taking revenue and getting no complaints the managers are happy too and if you end up with complaints you get in trouble and the passenger gets an apology from Customer relations so its pointless really. So the reality is your less likely to have to pay a visit to a manager for bending the rules slightly than you are if you stick to them rigildly as this TM will have found out unfortunately. Daft, yes but the way it is.
The issue with this particular case though is unknown from the side of the TM to be fair. I'm sure if he had written in about the passenger and not had her version of events it would read very differently. He may have had previous issues with her doing it etc. So it may not be as simple as to say someone should or shouldn't be doing this that or the other as nobody knows any real facts.

 

[185]

Lets face it (and I say this as a member of rail staff), it is much easier to give yourself an easy life and just sell the ticket.

I think in this case the thing that has been the red rag to a bull with the train manager, was a chain of events:

1) initially when asking for tickets being ignored - totally forgivable for someone who is 100% deaf, however I seriously doubt she did not see him in the corner of her eye - train seats do not face the window;
2) then someone who is likely a regular troublemaker getting angry and complaining without good cause about the way he finally got her attention (the only possible legal way without physically nudging or prodding)
3) then the thing which tipped it all off - her producing a Greater Manchester free pass - in Cheshire, when she knows full well as a "regular customer" it is not valid there.

The fare evasion rate on that end of the Manchester-London run is high, and Northern's recent idea of a gate-pass at Leeds station for disabled people is a can of worms for passengers, staff and the operator.