VT Euston to Glasgow (via Birmingham New Street)

[work-traveller]

I've only just noticed that Virgin are using voyager sets to run multiple services every day from Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham New Street. This is as well as the Birmingham New Street to Glasgow services, which starts at New Street.

a) Have Virgin been running this pattern for some time (quite possible as I don't pour over timetables)?
b) Presumably Virgin has voyager sets to spare (from Virgin Cross Country days?), hence this routing avoids the need for a pendalino - which would otherwise run Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton, or indeed all the way to Glasgow as it's all electrified?

 

[Eagle]

a) Have Virgin been running this pattern for some time (quite possible as I don't pour over timetables)?

It's been happening frequently since about 2008. However from December every Scotland to Birmingham service will continue to London, and about half will be Pendolinos.

b) Presumably Virgin has voyager sets to spare (from Virgin Cross Country days?), hence this routing avoids the need for a pendalino - which would otherwise run Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton, or indeed all the way to Glasgow as it's all electrified?

Birmingham to Scotland services being run mainly by Voyagers is indeed a hangover from the days when they started from the south coast (they couldn't exactly magic up half a dozen Pendolinos to run the service when it was split from XC). This is why Virgin are joining up Birmingham to Scotland and London to Birmingham services next year, it allows more Pendolinos to operate the route, so more Voyagers can be freed up for use on non-electrified routes.

 

[work-traveller]

Ah, thanks - that all makes sense. I know that pendalinos are already use on the Birmingham to Edinburgh route in the summer, but as far as I know they all start from Birmingham. Either way, I'd rather catch a Virgin train to Edinburgh or Glasgow rather than the (nearly) franchised alternative(s).

 

[route:oxford]

It's been happening frequently since about 2008. However from December every Scotland to Birmingham service will continue to London, and about half will be Pendolinos.

I'm hoping that The Scotland-London services via Brum will stop at MK or Bletchley in readiness for the E-W link opening in due course.

 

[Geezertronic]

I'm hoping that The Scotland-London services via Brum will stop at MK or Bletchley in readiness for the E-W link opening in due course.

Do any current VT services stop at Bletchley? And would an 11 car 390 fit into the platforms?

 

[Eagle]

They will stop at MKC. (Which, incidentally, results in Watford Junction losing its service to Wolverhampton.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do any current VT services stop at Bletchley? And would an 11 car 390 fit into the platforms?

Yes, it's about the same length as a 12-car 350.

 

[route:oxford]

They will stop at MKC. (Which, incidentally, results in Watford Junction losing its service to Wolverhampton.)

Well, that's certainly good news for people like me who regularly disembark from a 9/11 car Pendolino at Wolverhampton and squeeze onto a packed 4 car Voyager for the journey South.

It might hammer the profitability of XC though.

 

[MK Tom]

Yeah one big upshot of this for MK is the new direct service to Wolverhampton. Would it result in Watford losing theirs? The Watford Wolverhampton one stops at Sandwell, which birmingham-scotland services don't. Looks like they will now though... and looks like the xx:19 to London from MKC will become the xx:00, presumably to stop London commuters ramming onto an ex-Chester Voyager at xx:02.

As for Bletchley, there hasn't been an intercity service there since the 1980s, but a few stops might make sense after EWR. Then again, most EWR services will run to MKC anyway, as will Bedford-Bletchley services, so i don't see a point in connecting WCML expresses with Oxford-Bedford trains.

Incidentally MKC-Glasgow/Edinburgh will still be quicker changing at Crewe.

Is this a new service? http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y81265/2013-12-18

 

[Eagle]

Incidentally MKC-Glasgow/Edinburgh will still be quicker changing at Crewe.

Which has always been the case (although you'll likely be on two Voyagers for such a journey). 125 mph down the Trent Valley versus the longer route with many stops through Birmingham, no contest.

 

[IanD]

Shane the 1852 Ex Edinburgh does not join up with the 2245/2310 from Wolverhampton/New Street.

I know it connects but would be nice to stay on board.

 

[Bald Rick]

They will stop at MKC. (Which, incidentally, results in Watford Junction losing its service to Wolverhampton.)

Consarn it. Family Rick does Watford-Wolves regularly.

 

[bILLOO]

Poor Watford is slowly losing all its' long distance trains!

 

[David Goddard]

Makes a lot of sense as far as I see it. The two trains connect well at New Street at present so no reason why they shouldn't operate as a through train, and anything to reduce the number of passengers changing trains at New Street has to be a bonus.
Would assume this means leaving the xx23 (calling Watford) to Wolverhampton as is, and joining the xx43 (calling MKC) to the Scottish service. No change to paths, just frees up platform space (potentially for almost an hour) in New Street as they become one.
This provides Wolverhampton with two trains per hour to London and creates through services between Coventry & Birmingham International and stations in the North West & Scotland.

 

[crewmeal]

At least they still have the sleepers, more than Brum does.

 

[Kristofferson]

Will the down services from Edinburgh still stop at Watford? I join these at 10 past the hour at New Street for my journey home from work!

 

[IanD]

Will the down services from Edinburgh still stop at Watford? I join these at 10 past the hour at New Street for my journey home from work!

In the proof copy of table 66 for Dec 13, no services at xx10 from New Street call at Watford Junction. Looks like you'd have to change at Milton Keynes on to the Southern stopper.

Even the southbound VT services that do stop at Milton Keynes are pretty useless. OK there'll still be 3 an hour but at xx47, xx00 and xx03 - so all within 15 minutes. The xx00 will no doubt be running 3 minutes late at least meaning that anyone going for the xx00 or the xx03 will catch it so it's effectively 2 trains an hour.

At least VT aren't putting their fares up next weekend (as far as I can tell) so it will now be cheaper to use VT services from Milton Keynes to London than using the LM only ticket.

 

[AlexS]

Makes a lot of sense as far as I see it. The two trains connect well at New Street at present so no reason why they shouldn't operate as a through train, and anything to reduce the number of passengers changing trains at New Street has to be a bonus.
Would assume this means leaving the xx23 (calling Watford) to Wolverhampton as is, and joining the xx43 (calling MKC) to the Scottish service. No change to paths, just frees up platform space (potentially for almost an hour) in New Street as they become one.
This provides Wolverhampton with two trains per hour to London and creates through services between Coventry & Birmingham International and stations in the North West & Scotland.

Nope, the existing Euston to Wolverhampton service is withdrawn, although it does reappear from late afternoon.
Just have to hope that West Mids passengers aren't disadvantaged by the trains being swamped with cheap London to Scotland advances!

 

[snail]

Ah, thanks - that all makes sense. I know that pendalinos are already use on the Birmingham to Edinburgh route in the summer, but as far as I know they all start from Birmingham.

Pretty much all the Pendolino services start at Euston, to balance the southbound Pendolino services going on to Euston.

 

[IanD]

In the proof copy of table 66 for Dec 13, no services at xx10 from New Street call at Watford Junction. Looks like you'd have to change at Milton Keynes on to the Southern stopper.

Looks like it's the xx30 services from New Street which now call at Watford J, which would be quicker than the above.

Nope, the existing Euston to Wolverhampton service is withdrawn, although it does reappear from late afternoon.
Just have to hope that West Mids passengers aren't disadvantaged by the trains being swamped with cheap London to Scotland advances!

Don't see it re-appearing - with a couple of early exceptions alternate services start at Glasgow and Edinburgh throughout the day until 2145.

 

[AlexS]

I was on about the opposite direction from London really but I take your point southbound!

 

[nw1]

Nope, the existing Euston to Wolverhampton service is withdrawn, although it does reappear from late afternoon.
Just have to hope that West Mids passengers aren't disadvantaged by the trains being swamped with cheap London to Scotland advances!

Doesn't effect me too much, but I would agree that would be annoying - surely the whole point of these trains is to provide links from the Birmingham area (and lines which connect into Birmingham, such as XC) to Scotland (plus Warrington, Wigan, Lancaster etc) - not London to Scotland.

Seems to me though that it would be better if Virgin and XC were the same TOC - then they could start some of them at places like Bristol, Bournemouth, Plymouth etc and provide through trains from there to Scotland - as had existed since at least 1983, if not before.

 

[Eagle]

Doesn't effect me too much, but I would agree that would be annoying - surely the whole point of these trains is to provide links from the Birmingham area (and lines which connect into Birmingham, such as XC) to Scotland (plus Warrington, Wigan, Lancaster etc) - not London to Scotland.

Indeed, but doing it this way saves Voyagers for use elsewhere, increases capacity significantly by using Pendolinos, and is more efficient timetable-wise.

Seems to me though that it would be better if Virgin and XC were the same TOC - then they could start some of them at places like Bristol, Bournemouth, Plymouth etc and provide through trains from there to Scotland - as had existed since at least 1983, if not before.

Plymouth and Bristol do have direct trains to Scotland.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Now we are a bit nearer to this is there any indication which service will be 221s and which voyagers?

 

[Greeby]

In the proof copy of table 66 for Dec 13, no services at xx10 from New Street call at Watford Junction. Looks like you'd have to change at Milton Keynes on to the Southern stopper.

Even the southbound VT services that do stop at Milton Keynes are pretty useless. OK there'll still be 3 an hour but at xx47, xx00 and xx03 - so all within 15 minutes. The xx00 will no doubt be running 3 minutes late at least meaning that anyone going for the xx00 or the xx03 will catch it so it's effectively 2 trains an hour.

At least VT aren't putting their fares up next weekend (as far as I can tell) so it will now be cheaper to use VT services from Milton Keynes to London than using the LM only ticket.

This is going to cause a lot of grief at the booking office with the Virgin fanatics. Hopefully this provides the impetus to get rid of the TOC-specific walk-ups between Milton Keynes and Euston/Travelcard in January. For the number one fare flow, it should be one price for each ticket type, take it or leave it

 

[IanD]

This is going to cause a lot of grief at the booking office with the Virgin fanatics. Hopefully this provides the impetus to get rid of the TOC-specific walk-ups between Milton Keynes and Euston/Travelcard in January. For the number one fare flow, it should be one price for each ticket type, take it or leave it

Yes - just what we need, a 50% increase in fares. Why shouldn't we benefit from cheaper fares from Virgin after all the cr@p they've heaped on MK travellers over the past 10+ years?

Why don't you go the whole hog and abolish all TOC specific fares so everyone is treated equally.

 

[Kristofferson]

IanD - good news if the xx10 to WFJ is going to become the xx30! My cross city line train gets to new street at 1812 so I currently have to wait for the 1910 to WFJ - an 1830 will be ideal.

Thanks!

 

[MK Tom]

This is going to cause a lot of grief at the booking office with the Virgin fanatics. Hopefully this provides the impetus to get rid of the TOC-specific walk-ups between Milton Keynes and Euston/Travelcard in January. For the number one fare flow, it should be one price for each ticket type, take it or leave it

So you'd support increasing fares for everyone who doesn't buy the overpriced any operator ticket? No thank you. I don't mind who's cheaper than who, but we should have the choice.

 

[IrishDave]

Makes a lot of sense as far as I see it. The two trains connect well at New Street at present so no reason why they shouldn't operate as a through train, and anything to reduce the number of passengers changing trains at New Street has to be a bonus.
Would assume this means leaving the xx23 (calling Watford) to Wolverhampton as is, and joining the xx43 (calling MKC) to the Scottish service. No change to paths, just frees up platform space (potentially for almost an hour) in New Street as they become one.
This provides Wolverhampton with two trains per hour to London and creates through services between Coventry & Birmingham International and stations in the North West & Scotland.

No, the xx23 will terminate at New Street at xx45, and form the xx30 back to Euston that the xx43 from Euston (xx05 into New St) used to form. So actually Wolverhampton still only has one train an hour to and from London. And instead of two Pendolinos sitting for 25 minutes at New St, one sits for 25 minutes and the other for 45 minutes! Madness all round as far as I can see.

In fact, because the xx10 from New St now calls at MKC and the xx30 now calls at Watford (they are currently the other way round), carnage ensues on the Up Fast and you effectively lose one of the two unused paths into Euston. Which seems to fly in the face of Virgin advertising this timetable change as using less capacity, and lends weight to Network Rail's argument for rejecting the Blackpool and Shrewsbury services...

 

[Voyager 2093]

I know this is completely irrelevant but a few weeks back I saw Voyager, running on the Wolverhampton Express from Euston. Its quite rare to see that.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I know this is completely irrelevant but a few weeks back I saw Voyager, running on the Wolverhampton Express from Euston. Its quite rare to see that.

There are a couple of Birmingham to Euston services, which are booked for 221s.
09:50/10:30/13:30 BHM EUS are. There will of course be northbound workings to balance them out.
Also 15:23 Euston Wolves/17:45 Wolves Euston.
The 10:30 ex Birmingham is formed from the 05:50 Glasgow to Birmingham.
13:43 Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham is 2x221, but this will stop running soon.