VT Class 221s

[tcm1106]

I was on the 0846 service from Rugby to Euston this morning and it was a double 221 set. Whilst walking down the platform at Euston I noticed that the front unit (didn't get the number) appeared to have two shops in it?!

Would this be one of the four car units that was strengthened to five cars?

 

[ainsworth74]

It would indeed be one of those units.

 

[northwichcat]

I take it one of the two shops on that unit is out-of-use.

 

[All Line Rover]

I take it one of the two shops on that unit is out-of-use.

Yes. I find it very odd that they didn't remove the shop and replace it with seats. It's never going to revert back, after all!

Having said that, this train is also of note in that is has TWO "Coach D's." I don't think the "extra" one (furthest from First Class and with an out-of-use shop) has free Wi-Fi, but it does retain the more comfortable seats.

 

[headshot119]

It's either 221142, or 221143. It's rather odd the one that has the two shops as 66% of the train has FC seating.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes. I find it very odd that they didn't remove the shop and replace it with seats. It's never going to revert back, after all!

Unless there is some clause that requires them to re-form 221 144 for the end of franchise handback to the leasing company, only for it to be re-reformed minutes later when the leases to the new franchise commence!

Something to do with handing the stock back in the condition it was supplied in unless subjected to an agreed refurbishment or similar?

 

[northwichcat]

Unless there is some clause that requires them to re-form 221 143 for the end of franchise handback to the leasing company, only for it to be re-reformed minutes later when the leases to the new franchise commence!

Something to do with handing the stock back in the condition it was supplied in unless subjected to an agreed refurbishment or similar?

I think when the 221s were reformed the franchise extension hadn't been awarded.

Is there actually a franchise requirement to have a shop on board? I imagine there's one to sell food on board but not one to have a shop.

IF the pantograph vehicles are ordered I think it would be a good idea for Virgin to cascade some of their centre carriages to XC, allowing XC to form some of their 4 car sets in to 6 car sets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes. I find it very odd that they didn't remove the shop and replace it with seats. It's never going to revert back, after all!

We don't know that it won't ever be converted back. The new franchise holder of West Coast might have different views on how best to operate its' Voyager fleet, and there's always the chance that a number of West Coasts' Voyagers could end up moving elsewhere if replaced by a possible additional Pendolino order. Although perhaps it is quite unlikely before the 221s become due for a major refurbishment.

Plus, you couldn't just add seats into the shop area of one of the carriages, as there are no windows in that section of the carriage, and I bet a number of people will be quite chagrined at having no view whatsoever.

Btw, as others have already said, it's 221143 that has the extra shop: It has both vehicles 60793 and 60794 in its' formation.

 

[MCR247]

I'd imagine in the ROSCO contract, they'd want the stock back how they found it.

So Virgin doesn't gain any carriages?

 

[All Line Rover]

Plus, you couldn't just add seats into the shop area of one of the carriages, as there are no windows in that section of the carriage, and I bet a number of people will be quite chagrined at having no view whatsoever.

Ah yes - I hadn't thought of that.

Then again, CrossCountry are just as bad with their "luggage area." In my experience, nobody ever uses it, and it's ugly and looks like a complete botched job! :roll:

 

[headshot119]

Also of note is that the extra shop coach in 221143 doesn't have free wifi.

 

[All Line Rover]

Also of note is that the extra shop coach in 221143 doesn't have free wifi.

As pointed out above.

It's never used as First Class (for obvious reasons) so Virgin changed the Wi-Fi settings.

 

[HSTEd]

So will the 2 carriage 221 ever see the light of day again?

I imagine it has done rather fewer miles than the rest of the fleet (well those two carriages have)

 

[tbtc]

We don't know that it won't ever be converted back. The new franchise holder of West Coast might have different views on how best to operate its' Voyager fleet, and there's always the chance that a number of West Coasts' Voyagers could end up moving elsewhere if replaced by a possible additional Pendolino order

Electrification of the line to Chester (by the next TOC) would mean very few Voyagers would be needed on the West Coast franchise. That'd then allow the Voyagers to be reformed and given to XC...

 

[northwichcat]

Electrification of the line to Chester (by the next TOC) would mean very few Voyagers would be needed on the West Coast franchise. That'd then allow the Voyagers to be reformed and given to XC...

Isn't that wishful thinking? Virgin don't want to change their Voyagers on Birmingham-Scotland services to EMUs because it would make their operations more difficult, even though the usual route is electrified.

I imagine unless Chester-Holyhead is electrified then the best you can hope for on Chester-London is a dual powered Voyager with a peak time Pendolino service.

 

[tbtc]

Isn't that wishful thinking? Virgin don't want to change their Voyagers on Birmingham-Scotland services to EMUs because it would make their operations more difficult, even though the usual route is electrified.

I imagine unless Chester-Holyhead is electrified then the best you can hope for on Chester-London is a dual powered Voyager with a peak time Pendolino service.

It was supposedly going to be an option for bidders to specify, and there's certainly no guarantee that it'd be Virgin operating these services after then...

 

[Blindtraveler]

the voyagers, love or hate them are handy for diversions. If vT get west coast they maybe wil get the panto cars and a few extra coaches to use those 2 driving cars and run them as bi-modes

 

[northwichcat]

It was supposedly going to be an option for bidders to specify, and there's certainly no guarantee that it'd be Virgin operating these services after then...

In general operators take the cheapest available option. Doubled up Voyagers is a cheaper option than a dragged Pendolino. There's obviously the costs involved in leasing the locos, maintaining them and training drivers on them. On top of that dragged Pendolinos require 2 drivers because the dragged unit has to have a driver present, as well as requiring paths to couple/uncouple the loco.

the voyagers, love or hate them are handy for diversions. If vT get west coast they maybe wil get the panto cars and a few extra coaches to use those 2 driving cars and run them as bi-modes

Once Manchester-Bolton-Preston is electrified there will be the possibility of doing Birmingham-Crewe-Warrington-Bolton-Preston-Scotland or Birmingham-Crewe-Manchester-Warrington-Preston-Scotland under the wires in addition to the usual route.

 

[tbtc]

In general operators take the cheapest available option. Doubled up Voyagers is a cheaper option than a dragged Pendolino. There's obviously the costs involved in leasing the locos, maintaining them and training drivers on them. On top of that dragged Pendolinos require 2 drivers because the dragged unit has to have a driver present, as well as requiring paths to couple/uncouple the loco

That's assuming that the Holyhead frequency stays as it is (despite the drop in ferry passengers etc).

Wire to Chester, reduce direct Holyhead - London services to one drag a day and you free up twenty one (reformed) Voyagers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

was also thinking further north - S and C and via Dumfries are handy when theres something cooking on the WCML

 

[HSTEd]

was also thinking further north - S and C and via Dumfries are handy when theres something cooking on the WCML

S&C isnt really a practical diversion route because of the insane speed restrictions neccesary to stop all the passenger trains queuing up on reds behind freight.

Perhaps if the demise of coal power results in the end of transpennine coal traffic that will change.

 

[Blindtraveler]

agreed, but it has been done.

 

[northwichcat]

That's assuming that the Holyhead frequency stays as it is (despite the drop in ferry passengers etc).

Wire to Chester, reduce direct Holyhead - London services to one drag a day and you free up twenty one (reformed) Voyagers.

I'm sure if you were actually put in charge of an operator you'd realise your idea of having as close to 100% electric traction under OHE as possible won't work.

If Chester-Crewe was electrified and only Pendolinos were used:
1. Where would you stable the Pendolinos overnight? Would you have a long ECS move or wire up the Chester depot for the purpose of keeping one or two electric units there?
2. How would you get Pendolinos between Longsight and Chester in the event of a unit swap being required considering how congested the WCML is?
3. Given the diversionary route between Chester and Crewe isn't electrified and a dragged Pendolino will struggle to get clearance (given a Voyager is only just cleared) would you have a lot more of the unpopular replacement buses?

 

[tbtc]

If Chester-Crewe was electrified and only Pendolinos were used:
1. Where would you stable the Pendolinos overnight? Would you have a long ECS move or wire up the Chester depot for the purpose of keeping one or two electric units there?

Liverpool gets an hourly Pendolino service and Edge Hill justifies being used as a stabling point (long ECS move from Edge Hill to Longsight...).

Glasgow doesn't even get an hourly Pendolino service but Polmadie justifies being used as a stabling point (even longer ECS move!).

Any reason why Chester (which would have an hourly Pendolino service) wouldn't justify the same?

2. How would you get Pendolinos between Longsight and Chester in the event of a unit swap being required considering how congested the WCML is?

Same could be said of Glasgow/Liverpool.

3. Given the diversionary route between Chester and Crewe isn't electrified and a dragged Pendolino will struggle to get clearance (given a Voyager is only just cleared) would you have a lot more of the unpopular replacement buses?

By the same logic BR wouldn't have electrified much of the WCML north of Crewe, due to lack of electrified diversionary routes. If you don't want to wire a route because the diversionary routes aren't wired yet then no new electrification would be justified.

 

[HSTEd]

Im pretty sure the ECML doesn't have a single electrified diversion route north of Stevenage and will only acquire one between Colton Junction and Doncaster with the TPE-North project.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's assuming that the Holyhead frequency stays as it is (despite the drop in ferry passengers etc).

Wire to Chester, reduce direct Holyhead - London services to one drag a day and you free up twenty one (reformed) Voyagers.

Only if you build up to 21 new Pendolinos (for Chester/Holyhead and BHM-Scotland routes).

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool gets an hourly Pendolino service and Edge Hill justifies being used as a stabling point (long ECS move from Edge Hill to Longsight...).

Glasgow doesn't even get an hourly Pendolino service but Polmadie justifies being used as a stabling point (even longer ECS move!).

Any reason why Chester (which would have an hourly Pendolino service) wouldn't justify the same?

Chester doesn't have any Virgin crews based there and considering crews are based at Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe it's unlikely that it will become a base for them.

It also has an earlier finish for London services, so the chances of finding a path for an ECS move would be more difficult.

There may also be platform issues at Chester with having more terminating services from London and replacement services to Holyhead. There's only 3 platforms that could take a Pendolino and one of them has a Merseyrail service departing from it every 15 minutes. If a Pendolino takes up one of the three then it only leaves one through platform for other services.

By the same logic BR wouldn't have electrified much of the WCML north of Crewe, due to lack of electrified diversionary routes. If you don't want to wire a route because the diversionary routes aren't wired yet then no new electrification would be justified.

When BR did electrification they knew that during weekend engineering works they could swap an electric loco usually used on WCML passenger services with a diesel loco usually used on weekday freight services to send the train an alternative route e.g. via Bolton.

You seem to be suggesting a 100% electric fleet for the next WC franchise with a few diesel locos. A 100% electric fleet works for a local operator like c2c but won't work for regional and intercity franchises unless we have much more electrification.

 

[RobShipway]

I have to agree with JCollins, you need a lot more of the West Coast Route to be electrified even after Crewe - Chester is electrified, for the WCML to be even 95 - 98% electric as you will still need 5 car trains for most of the services to Holyhead other than the peak time Pendolino drag. That is why as well as XC. Virgin should be getting overhead pantograph car.

The only problem after making the Voyagers Hybrid ElectroDiesels, is whether there is enough power within the OHE network to power the Voyagers as well??

 

[Nym]

The only problem after making the Voyagers Hybrid ElectroDiesels, is whether there is enough power within the OHE network to power the Voyagers as well??

Well, assuming that traction motors are added into the pantograph coach(es) too then a 6 car 221 will draw at maximum 3.36MW, 7 car 3.92MW. Where the 390 is rated to draw 5.1MW only for it's traction motors, and realistically, it will be 2tph services on the entire WCML moving from DEMU to EDMU, 4tph if you include Birmingham - Manchester XC services, now assuming only LDPE passenger services on the WCML (That we know there is an awful lot more than!) ((OVERSIMPLIFICATION ALERT!)) the current 8tph 390s of Euston draw 40.8MW, you'd be adding only 19.2% of that to it with two 7 car 221s running aswell. So if you take into account all of the freight, 350s, 321, SN and other services knocking about on the WCML, 4tph changing from Diesel to Electric shouldn't mark that much of an increase in power drawn. (We should be fine.)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Chester doesn't have any Virgin crews based there and considering crews are based at Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe it's unlikely that it will become a base for them.

There are no VT onboard crew based at Crewe - only Manchester and Liverpool men sign Chester, as well as I think some Preston men. I think Liverpool men are the only ones to sign Holyhead.