Voyagers-Why only 4/5 cars?

[GNERman]

Why do Voyagers only have 4/5 cars?
Surely this has got to be one of the biggest mistakes Virgin XC did as you have got tilting voyagers with non tilters on non tilting routes
Why didn't Virgin do them as 8/9 cars each and one buffet car.
Surely this would have been a better thing to do?

 

[JoshW1992]

I've always wondered the same thing. 4 or 5 coach trains on busy routes isnt always the best thing to do. I have always found them packed out.

 

[Ilove165's]

I was talking to an XC voyager driver at Temple Meads in August and he told me that XC wanted to make all their Voagers into 6-car sets when they got the franchise,but the DafT wouldn't let them....can't remember why though

Sam

 

[Jordy]

When the Voyagers were introduced, the service became much more frequent.

The idea was for shorter trains more frequently, they expected passenger levels to remain pretty much the same, but passengers would have a more frequent service and hence more trains to choose from. However in the real world the increased frequency made the XC network much more popular, causing overcrowding, what they really needed was trains the same length as the original ones (HST/LHCS pre Voyager) at the frequency that the Voyagers ran/run.

The idea was good and worked well, but the trains were simply too short and the growth wasn't expected!

 

[scb201]

The growth was expected. Virgin planned to increase the lengths of the voyagers (hence the carriage labeling) once demand increased. Unfortunately, the Dft decided to reign in their spending, as other spending went over budget....

 

[The Planner]

Trouble is, Operation Princess frequency, with HST length trains would never have worked at New St. You can get 2x5 cars in a platform, not 2 x HSTs.

 

[devon_metro]

I'm curious, what frequencies did Operation Princess achieve?

 

[Guinness]

Simply when Virgin realised that 4/5 cars were not enough the DfT refused to let them order more Coaches or sets. Virgin's franchise was up for renewal in a few years and wasn't worth the Private Investment of £75m (approx) for the additional 5/6th coaches from Virgin Group (Some Pendolinos have been bought directly from Virgin rather than a ROSCO) when your franchise was under threat. Which obviously they lost in the end to Arriva.

Arriva have made a little progress with HSTs but some Voyagers went to Virgin West Coast and the vicous circle begins again...

 

[thefab444]

Why do Voyagers only have 4/5 cars?
Surely this has got to be one of the biggest mistakes Virgin XC did as you have got tilting voyagers with non tilters on non tilting routes
Why didn't Virgin do them as 8/9 cars each and one buffet car.

Simple.

Money.

 

[class 313]

In short the SRA wouldn't let VXC have longer Voyagers.

 

[16CSVT2700]

Why do Voyagers only have 4/5 cars?

Because they're crap.

 

[Techniquest]

Could be worse. I'm happy enough with the Voyagers as they are with XC, although all of them being 5 cars straight off the bat would have been better. Still, what's done is done.

 

[class 313]

Because they're crap.

 

[martyn29]

Double Voyagers are ok

 

[Bayum]

Yeah, but they never quite seem to put the double voyagers on when you need them....

 

[voyagerdude220]

That's probably related to the rate of "demand" for Voyagers being in service at weekends, compared to weekdays, because engineering work at weekends often half service frequencies, therefore allowing the not as frequent services to be formed of double-sets.

Unfortunately, this became very rare even at weekends, for Cross Country, because of VWC holding 14 221's prior to the franchise shake up, before they had sufficient time to introduce the 4 HST sets into service.

I think the problem has been slightly reduced, with the introduction of the 4 XC HST sets, even though VT have now taken their final 4 sets [221115-221118] with the HSTs obviously holding alot more seats than the Super Voyagers.

 

[GNERman]

So basically it was a big mess

 

[alpha_9]

Why do Voyagers only have 4/5 cars?
Surely this has got to be one of the biggest mistakes Virgin XC did as you have got tilting voyagers with non tilters on non tilting routes
Why didn't Virgin do them as 8/9 cars each and one buffet car.
Surely this would have been a better thing to do?

Indeed it would, especially in regards to the expected growth. Also another idea having would be to have two seperate power cars, as opposed to underfloor engines, its okay of course to have that for regional and commuter but nobody really wants it on such long distance journeys. But I guess that would sound too much like common sense!

 

[adamp]

Virgin didnt make them we have to take into account, wasnt it Alstom or something?

-Adam

 

[Bayum]

Would have been Virgin who specified what they wanted though, how many carriages etc etc

 

[TEW]

Virgin orginally specified Locomotives and Coaching stock but the DfT changed the order to DEMUs.

 

[Pumbaa]

Would have been Virgin who specified what they wanted though, how many carriages etc etc

IIRC the original plan was for 6 and 7 car sets, with real sort of airline interiors. Obviously money became an issue, and the sets were designed hurriedly with little thought. Ever wonder why there's so many cabinets around? With the stupidly bent walkways into the carriages? The space-age pannelling hides all the stuff Bombardier didn't have the time to shove away somewhere else

I think that's half the problem actually with the overcrowding. The Voyager vestibules are ridiculously small compared to the Meridians. If all the components were fitted underfloor, then there'd be a hell of a lot more room, I imagine up to 100% in coaches such as the Quiet zone and FC.

And it was 5 SuperVoyagers that went back, not 4. Doubling up of Voyagers is now better, but not perfect due to the long journey times, so they can't be in the best possible places all at once.

Princess increased frequencies over the Bristol - Newcastle section by around 120% I think, and the outer extremities varying amounts.

 

[VirginTrainFreak]

Why do Voyagers only have 4/5 cars?
Surely this has got to be one of the biggest mistakes Virgin XC did as you have got tilting voyagers with non tilters on non tilting routes
Why didn't Virgin do them as 8/9 cars each and one buffet car.
Surely this would have been a better thing to do?

probley to save some cash lol

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Why haven't extra carriages been ordered for the Voyagers if they have now realised more carriages are needed? Surely more can be built? The Pendo's are having extra carriages made arent they?

 

[MCR247]

Why haven't extra carriages been ordered for the Voyagers if they have now realised more carriages are needed? Surely more can be built? The Pendo's are having extra carriages made arent they?

Yeah but the DaFT wont want to spend more money will they?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

By all accounts Virgin will add 2 extra carriages to just over half of their pendo's - making them 11 long - by the end 2012 just after the franchise changes over.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

But if they want to encourage us to ditch the car then more carriages are needed. Stupid government and its backwards thinking.

 

[90019]

Stupid government and its backwards thinking.

That's nothing new.

 

[tbtc]

Why haven't extra carriages been ordered for the Voyagers if they have now realised more carriages are needed? Surely more can be built? The Pendo's are having extra carriages made arent they?

Just sticking in one extra coach (with no disabled toilet) would make a huge difference to them; I'm sure they'd be profitable too (given the extra numbers you could get on).

Having commuted daily from Sheffield to Leeds on them (and got a seat on a couple of days!), I really wish they'd built them long enough in the first place...

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Voyagers and Operation Pumpkin were a disaster from start to finish. Take a route that has hourly frequency and make it half hourly. Make the trains shorter because people have more choice of trains so don't all have to fit on as they do now.

A few problems with this genius strategy:
1. 2 4-car Voyagers have less seats in std than the hauled/HST sets they replaced
2. Fewer seats per hour but double the frequency creates demand which cannot be catered for
3. The idea that people will travel at different times. Because obviously when a wedged Voyager turns up you're going to wait half an hour to see if the next one is also wedged.

Two words: Richard Bowker.