• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Voyagers vs HSTs on CrossCountry

Status
Not open for further replies.

Andrew

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
175
I'm sure 221s can only tilt under TASS.
http://www.traintesting.com/Class_221.htm also says that the Oxford-Banbury section is back at 90mph, despite TASS allowing 110mph. I'm not sure if that's correct, though it could well be - I can't remember there being any EPS boards.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
5,078
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Voyagers are not the worst trains on the Network.... However they are just not suitable for Bournemouth-Edinburgh and the like.

Now with Brum-Edinburgh/Glasgow going to VWC from December will we see sense with 90+DVT sets on these services (as they will be self contained), releasing Voyagers to strengthen XC proper services. Makes sense, and I don't even like skodas!

175s/180s for me deliver a much better travelling environment than Voyagers (just dont mention the reliability ;))

Can see the new XC/West Mids/East Mids franchises being a right mess!
 

Guinness

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2005
Messages
3,736
Picking out some vital things from this thread.

Re: HST and Voyager acceleration. I worked out some Weight to HP ratios and Voyagers have 16.9hp per tonne and HSTs (2+5) have 13.3hp per tonne. My PC crashed while I was working out the figures so they were lost but I remember the final figure. In theory a 5 Car HST can stick to Voyager timings and Virgin knew this with the Challenger sets, see www.therailwaycentre.com but again Government interference stopped this. So yorkie is correct.

However, if it was a 8 Car HST set the acceleration would be dramatically reduced as the 8 Car set isn't gaining any extra engines (Or horsepower) but with a 8 Car Voyager Set (220+220) the HP per tonne would remain the same because of the extra engines. I'll work out some figures after I come back from Work. I hope you catch my drift.

TASS is the only piece of equipment that's certified to run EPS on the UK Network.

350s are supposedly taking over Birmingham - Manchester services so that will give something back to the environment. I agree that Diesels on all OHLE routes is a complete waste of resources.
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
You can't expect a driver to do everything... he's there to drive the train, and that's it.

Suggesting that a driver is 'just there to drive the train' would be gross arrogance for safety. At the end of the day the driver has the final say in whether the train can tilt or not, if available. The safety of himself, his crew and passengers is just as important if not more important than getting from A to B on time. You would rather arrive at your destination late but alive than not at all.

I'm sure 221s can only tilt under TASS.
http://www.traintesting.com/Class_221.htm also says that the Oxford-Banbury section is back at 90mph, despite TASS allowing 110mph. I'm not sure if that's correct, though it could well be - I can't remember there being any EPS boards.
Andrew, Birmingham - Reading is outside my route knowledge so I couldn't comment accurately but all the information suggests that some part of that line is enabled.

Even on the WCML tilt only takes place at very restricted curves: Bushey, Linslade, Weedon, parts of the Trent Valley and North Staffs, and in Cumbria, Southern Scotland.
Not wishing to confuse where tilt is enabled to where it actually takes place, but if I said about the majority of the WCML then I mean that EPS boards are there and enabled over most of the WCML. For example, through North London suburbs, even though there isn't much in the way of tiltage, the trains can still run at a higher speed.

I guess the point is, if HSTs and MK3s were cascaded, subsidy would be a fraction of the cost now or even non existent. It really depends whether passenger numbers would have grown in any case. Take Reading-Birmingham, which is a huge growth route, on account of business development in the Thames Valley. The service frequency was doubled, so that in itself is attractive. It also remains to be seen what could have been achieved through yield management on tickets – something BR didn’t do on cross country.

That said, there is no doubt that Voyagers are popular with passengers. The first rule of mass transit is it has to be a quality service; else people just won’t use it. Minimum services with cheap and nasty stock just don’t work. Voyagers, although far too short, are in most passengers’ eyes an upgrade.
This backs up my reasons behind replacing stock on WC and XC - new trains are an upgrade, refurbished 30 year old trains less so. Improving service frequency and ticketed (value for money) has come with this.

Voyagers are not the worst trains on the Network.... However they are just not suitable for Bournemouth-Edinburgh and the like.

Now with Brum-Edinburgh/Glasgow going to VWC from December will we see sense with 90+DVT sets on these services (as they will be self contained), releasing Voyagers to strengthen XC proper services. Makes sense, and I don't even like skodas!

175s/180s for me deliver a much better travelling environment than Voyagers (just dont mention the reliability ;))

Can see the new XC/West Mids/East Mids franchises being a right mess!

TBH I don't think anyone's sure what will happen. I suspect for Brum-Schcotland will either be 390s (if they're available) or 221s, or a mix of both. What about running one of the 3 London - West Mids trains to Scotland?

I can't see WC considering the use of 90/DVT sets on a large basis. But, XC will require less Voyagers if you think about it, because a large portion of the network will be lost but don't forget that if North Wales does eventually become hourly then WC will want more 221s for that.

Otherwise, I can't see the shake up being too bad. Central units will fill in mostly for the Ex-Citylink routes soon too be XC, i.e. Nottingham - Cardiff/Brum - Stansted and Brum - Leicester, with maybe the odd Voyager appearing on Welsh runs.
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
Otherwise, I can't see the shake up being too bad. Central units will fill in mostly for the Ex-Citylink routes soon too be XC, i.e. Nottingham - Cardiff/Brum - Stansted and Brum - Leicester, with maybe the odd Voyager appearing on Welsh runs.
I have now heard that ALL Central 170s will be going to XC, so Liverpool - Norwich and the other remaining 'quality' workings being run by 158s.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,191
Location
0035
The lack of seats on Voyagers is disgraceful, as I said before, that's the only problem with them. The power sockets are very useful and the Voyagers are definately quieter than the HSTs with rubbish internal doors which can't keep shut more than five minutes and make a racket when they open & close, and the draught which comes through the windows howling in the carriages, not to mention the seats which are designed for a midget.

Because of overcrowding, Virgin are about to lose a customer in a month or so (me), because frankly I'm not willing to put up with it any more, particularly on Sundays.
 
T

Tom

Guest
Did this because I was bored.

Based on 2005/2006 TACs.

Code:
Track Access Charges
============================
HST Power Car       39.51p/m
Mk3 coaching stock  11.25p/m
Class 220 DEMU car  20.61p/m
Class 221 DEMU car  27.52p/m
============================

The total milage between York and
Plymouth is 342.22 miles.

HST TAC

Formation             Total
============================
2 power car          £270.42
5 Mk3 coaching stock £192.50
6 Mk3 coaching stock £231.00
7 Mk3 coaching stock £269.50
============================

Therefore, the total cost of a train
in 2+5 formation (299 seats) is £462.92
which is £1.55 per seat, in 2+6 formation
(375 seats) it is £501.42 which is £1.34
per seat, and in a 7 car formation (451 seats)
the cost is £539.92 which is £1.19 per seat.

In order to calculate these, we have presumed
1 FO, 1 TRSB and the rest TSOs.

Voyager TAC

Formation             Total
============================
Class 220 DEMU 4-car £282.13
Class 221 DEMU 4-car £376.72
Class 221 DEMU 5-car £470.90
============================

Therefore, a class 220 Voyager has a 
total cost of £282.13, which is £1.50
per seat, a class 221 in 4-car formation
is £376.72, which is £2.01 per seat. A 
class 221 in 5-car formation is £1.88 per
seat.

Make what you will.
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
Did this because I was bored.

Based on 2005/2006 TACs.

Code:
Track Access Charges
============================
HST Power Car       39.51p/m
Mk3 coaching stock  11.25p/m
Class 220 DEMU car  20.61p/m
Class 221 DEMU car  27.52p/m
============================

The total milage between York and
Plymouth is 342.22 miles.

HST TAC

Formation             Total
============================
2 power car          £270.42
5 Mk3 coaching stock £192.50
6 Mk3 coaching stock £231.00
7 Mk3 coaching stock £269.50
============================

Therefore, the total cost of a train
in 2+5 formation (299 seats) is £462.92
which is £1.55 per seat, in 2+6 formation
(375 seats) it is £501.42 which is £1.34
per seat, and in a 7 car formation (451 seats)
the cost is £539.92 which is £1.19 per seat.

In order to calculate these, we have presumed
1 FO, 1 TRSB and the rest TSOs.

Voyager TAC

Formation             Total
============================
Class 220 DEMU 4-car £282.13
Class 221 DEMU 4-car £376.72
Class 221 DEMU 5-car £470.90
============================

Therefore, a class 220 Voyager has a 
total cost of £282.13, which is £1.50
per seat, a class 221 in 4-car formation
is £376.72, which is £2.01 per seat. A 
class 221 in 5-car formation is £1.88 per
seat.

Make what you will.

Nothing that can't be subsidised by fare changes ;)
 
T

Tom

Guest
Should fare changes really be risen above inflation though!
 

devon_metro

Established Member
Joined
11 Oct 2005
Messages
7,714
Location
London
The lack of seats on Voyagers is disgraceful, as I said before, that's the only problem with them. The power sockets are very useful and the Voyagers are definately quieter than the HSTs with rubbish internal doors which can't keep shut more than five minutes and make a racket when they open & close, and the draught which comes through the windows howling in the carriages, not to mention the seats which are designed for a midget.

Because of overcrowding, Virgin are about to lose a customer in a month or so (me), because frankly I'm not willing to put up with it any more, particularly on Sundays.

I would disagree, The rattles on voyagers are annoying, the engine sounds are quite frankly atrocius compared with an HST, which is perfectly adequate.

I would rather sit on a MK3 with a wheel flat for hours vice a voyager!
 

Guinness

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2005
Messages
3,736

I think it's do with how the Rolling Stock should be used better rather than the trains themselves.

As I've said many times before, government interference is the main problem for the Railways been so bad despite record passenger numbers. Angel Trains are now up in arms and are going to refuse to foot the bill for 2 extra Pendolino Carriages. Nothing a bunch HSTs can solve.

3 Car Turbostars shouldn't be used on Long Distances like Liverpool - Norwich. Voyagers would be better equipped IMHO.

What I would like to see happen in the future is the following.

HST2 Concept on Long Distances such as XC Routes and the current HST routes.

Voyagers on Medium - Long Distance (Not a lot of Demand) Trains such as Leeds - Manchester/Liverpool.

Turbostars on Short - Medium Routes like Crewe - Derby and Bristol TM - Birmingham.

The Local Services can still run Sprinter Type Trains as the Corridor Connection is ideal to add capacity where needed, a good example been Manchester.

Finally, I'd like to see a major review in ROSCOs and perhaps the idea of TOCs owning there own stock with perhaps Subsidies to help fund new trains if the franchise requires them? ROSCOs high prices are ridiculous, see 442 charges.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,191
Location
0035
Turbostars on Short - Medium Routes like Crewe - Derby and Bristol TM - Birmingham.

But Bristol - Birmingham services form part of a longer XC Journey, and, although most people get off there (& get on going the other way), a good number stay on past B'ham. Are speeds higher than 100Mph needed for this route?

At the moment, Voyagers provide local journeys in Greater Bristol between Parkway & TM, and the Cardiff train calls at almost all stations!
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
^^^^^ don't forget about hourly Nottingham - Birmingham - Cardiff trains.

I would disagree, The rattles on voyagers are annoying, the engine sounds are quite frankly atrocius compared with an HST, which is perfectly adequate.

I would rather sit on a MK3 with a wheel flat for hours instead of a voyager!

Enthusiasts are more accustomed to nit-picking with new stock and generally seem to prefer older stock, with exceptions.

Mr Joe Public does not mind. Don't forget, many Tom, Dick and Harrys aren't knowledgable on the finer details of rail travel, such as stock, routes, speeds etc - they only care about getting from A to B on time and how they intend to do this. The vast majority of Joe "occasional traveller" Public do not deliberately try to escape a certain type of stock or route.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
5,078
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Mr Joe Public does not mind. Don't forget, many Tom, Dick and Harrys aren't knowledgable on the finer details of rail travel, such as stock, routes, speeds etc - they only care about getting from A to B on time and how they intend to do this. The vast majority of Joe "occasional traveller" Public do not deliberately try to escape a certain type of stock or route.

Joe public is also more concerned about getting a seat and a decent travelling environment than getting there 10 minutes quicker.

use Voyagers on your Brum-Norwich, Liverpool-Newcastle, Crewe-Cardiff type stuff, not Bournemouth-Edinburgh...
 
T

Tom

Guest
Bournemouth - the North trains are often packed from Southampton Central in my experience....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top