-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Voyagers on WCML
- Thread starter Haydn1971
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Basically because that's what they've got!
Obviously 221s are used on the non-electrified routes to Wales. But other than that you get 2x221 on busy Scotland via Brum (or just Brum) services, and 1x221 on quieter ones.
kevconnor
Member
I thought the only Voyagers that ran entirely under the wires were any that ran on Euston or Birmingham - Glasgow or Edinburgh. Not too sure how many of these are Voyagers however. They do also run to Chester, North Wales & Blackpool but each of these areas are not wired up for part of the journey.
Obviously virgin have a number of journeys which go beyond the wires (e.g. Shrewsbury, Chester, Holyhead, Wrexham, Blackpool).
As you already have diesel trains you may as well run them when not needed to serve these destinations. It offers extra capacity and it's much better to have a multi million pound bit of kit making money rather than sitting about for several hours of the day.
As you already have diesel trains you may as well run them when not needed to serve these destinations. It offers extra capacity and it's much better to have a multi million pound bit of kit making money rather than sitting about for several hours of the day.
Basically, because they've got them and need to use them (the Birmingham-Scotland service was originally part of the Virgin XC franchise - there was a separate batch for North Wales but those operate off the wires).
Some sections of route are operated with a single unit, so yes, they are diagrammed efficiently.
Some sections of route are operated with a single unit, so yes, they are diagrammed efficiently.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Also, they are critical to Virgin's services at Bank Holidays and other weekends when there are extensive closures of the WCML and the electrified network.
Many services become Voyager-operated rather than 57+390.
Including triple-unit Voyagers from Coventry to Euston via the Chiltern line.
I would have dropped the requirement to serve North Wales from the WC franchise and made it an "all electric" franchise with funding for additional Pendos. The Voyagers released could then have been given to Cross-Country to ensure the bulk of XC services were a minimum of 8 coaches (i.e. most XC services formed of 2x4 car, 2x5 car or 4+5 car voyagers). North Wales is well served by ATW/Northern.
Northern go to north Wales??
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
nope, unless he means Chester which is in England 
Well there are a few Welsh signs dotted around the station so maybe an invasion has occurred?nope, unless he means Chester which is in England
I'm sure the Welsh would be very happy to lose intercity services to Northerns rag tag hit squad of cast off 80's memorabilia
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Not from London.
Virgin ordered fleets for the combined West Coast (mainly electric) and Cross Country (mainly diesel) franchises, with some overlap between the two.
This was during the "no more electrification" period.
The SRA, in its wisdom, decided to split the franchises part way through the 15-year term.
Hence where we are.
And ATW/Northern specialise in running 1/2/3-car trains in the peaks when Virgin can run 5/10.
See you on the 0735 Chester-Euston which is busy from Chester/North Wales, full from Crewe and standing from Rugby.
Last edited:
Then thank goodness you don't have any influence over franchise requirements!
Withdrawing through services from North Wales to London would go down like a cup of cold sick. After all, there have been through trains for 150 years+
Oh, and since the ATW trains from N Wales go alternately to Shrewsbury / Manchester would you expect people to change twice?
And - as already pointed out - Northern don't serve North Wales.
Sorry I had got it in to my head that the Manchester - N Wales services were Northern (although some Manchester-Chesters are) however I stand by my statement that The West Coast franchise should be electric only. Its a waste of voyager traction using them for an hourly Chester service plus the odd extension to Holyhead. An enhanced ATW service to from Crewe could connect into an enhanced pendo service at Crewe.
Last edited:
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Where are the Pendolinos coming from for the enhanced service ?
So you would remove the following from direct services to London:
Blackpool
Shrewsbury
Telford
Holyhead
Bangor
Llandudno Jn
Colwyn Bay
Rhyl
Chester (!) ?
And how does this "enhanced Pendolino" service work exactly?
See my post #7
"I would have dropped the requirement to serve North Wales from the WC franchise and made it an "all electric" franchise with funding for additional Pendos".
thenorthern
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 May 2013
- Messages
- 4,711
Before the Voyagers and the Pendolinos came in it was common for the then Virgin Cross Country trains that ran via Manchester to stop at Preston to do an engine change so that from Preston to Scotland the train would be electric while the train Preston to the South Coast would be Diesel. This ended with the introduction of Voyagers as they are multiple units.
I think that some Voyagers run the fast London Euston to Glasgow Central service but its mostly Pendolinos.
Running Voyagers under the wires is basically a bad judgement decision by Virgin Trains and the DfT when they ordered new trains as until 2007 Virgin Cross Country operated the Birmingham - Scotland WCML services most of which ran from Bristol, Plymouth, Bournemouth, Brighton or Portsmouth which are not electrified and hence needed a Diesel train to run the journey. After 2007 the Birmingham - Scotland services were transferred to Virgin West Coast and didn't go beyond Birmingham meaning Virgin Trains ended up with the current situation of running under the wires.
I think that some Voyagers run the fast London Euston to Glasgow Central service but its mostly Pendolinos.
Running Voyagers under the wires is basically a bad judgement decision by Virgin Trains and the DfT when they ordered new trains as until 2007 Virgin Cross Country operated the Birmingham - Scotland WCML services most of which ran from Bristol, Plymouth, Bournemouth, Brighton or Portsmouth which are not electrified and hence needed a Diesel train to run the journey. After 2007 the Birmingham - Scotland services were transferred to Virgin West Coast and didn't go beyond Birmingham meaning Virgin Trains ended up with the current situation of running under the wires.
mbreckers
Member
- Joined
- 20 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 365
I thought it was too late now for VT to order any new pendo's (the current 390's anyway) as the period they had to order more passed with Alstom
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There won't be any more 390s, but there's no reason there couldn't be New Pendolino based EMUs. Indeed, such things (baby Pendolinos for the Scottish services) were in VT's bid last time round - though as a resident of MK I think joining the services across Birmingham and using proper full-size ones has been a much superior solution.
As for the Voyagers, during disruption and engineering work they *really* come in handy. Probably worth putting up with an odd bit of diesel under the wires for that, and for passengers they aren't a lot different.
Yes but was not talking about *now*.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The current Virgin franchise has been extended to April 2018, so there is no prospect of any change to the rolling stock until then.
Virgin (and First) did bid to add 6-car Pendolinos in 2012, to serve new destinations and be hauled off the wires to Shrewsbury/Holyhead.
Those bids were binned by the DfT.
Virgin did get 4 new Pendolinos and most of the existing fleet were extended to 11 cars in a slightly earlier DfT project.
Why should West Coast be an electric-only enclave?
East Coast runs quite a few routes off the wires with HSTs.
thenorthern
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 May 2013
- Messages
- 4,711
I would think that the Safety systems on Class 390 trains are not sufficient to meet safety standards for new trains.
This is not to say there unsafe as they are completely safe but given its been 15 years since they first entered production many things would need to be changed to meet the standards for new trains.
This is not to say there unsafe as they are completely safe but given its been 15 years since they first entered production many things would need to be changed to meet the standards for new trains.
That's a very good point actually - the WCML upgrade was in full flow when the 390/221 fleets were ordered, so lots of disruption and diversions onto non wired lines.
Polarbear
Established Member
Another point to add is that a small number of 221's were always part of the West Coast franchise requirement specifically for the North Wales' services.
Casting my mind back to the late 1990's when Virgin first proposed an hourly Chester-London service (with appropriate extensions to North Wales), I was immensely sceptical as to the viability of such a service. For years, North Wales to London was around 6 trains per day, this being cut to 3per day in the "Intercity" era, so an increase to hourly (albeit with shorter trains) seemed ambitious to put it mildly.
Nowadays, many of the services from Chester to London are quite busy & the hourly through services are much appreciated by several companies based in & around Chester. Any attempt to ditch the through services from the area would no doubt be met with fierce opposition. I doubt the Welsh Assembly would be impressed either if their through trains from North Wales were axed.
Casting my mind back to the late 1990's when Virgin first proposed an hourly Chester-London service (with appropriate extensions to North Wales), I was immensely sceptical as to the viability of such a service. For years, North Wales to London was around 6 trains per day, this being cut to 3per day in the "Intercity" era, so an increase to hourly (albeit with shorter trains) seemed ambitious to put it mildly.
Nowadays, many of the services from Chester to London are quite busy & the hourly through services are much appreciated by several companies based in & around Chester. Any attempt to ditch the through services from the area would no doubt be met with fierce opposition. I doubt the Welsh Assembly would be impressed either if their through trains from North Wales were axed.
dk1
Veteran Member
Chester is also the main interchange point for North Wales to London passengers since the previous hourly Holyhead-Crewe services had the destination alternated between Birmingham/Cardiff both via Wrexham.
headshot119
Established Member
Well last time I looked Chester wasn't in North Wales, nor does it have OHLE so how do Virgin serve it as an "All electric franchise"?
As for dropping the London services from the North Wales Coast because it's well served by ATW/Northern... You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Move along people don't feed the troll.
Last edited:
- Status