Voyagers could be the best current train

[Class800]

You're brave saying that on here, got your popcorn ready?!

My favourite is another unpopular choice - a Class 800 hence my username

 

[Bletchleyite]

Building more diesel units for XC would clearly have been a mistake.

Pure DMUs yes. Bimodes no.

 

[Halish Railway]

I think not finishing GWEP has had several consequences for XC, those being:
- If the routes to Oxford and Bristol were electrified, purely electric LDHS trains could have been ordered to displace bimode 80Xs to XC, if that had happened I would have have transferred an even number of 5 car and 9 car sets, reformed into more appropriate 7 car sets to replace Voyagers and eliminate diesel running under the wires along already electrified sections.
- Once GWEP had been done, they could have kept going and electrify Bristol to Birmingham, allowing purely electric trains to replace the Voyagers on the Manchester to Bristol route and likewise eliminate diesel running under the wires along already electrified sections.

Also:
- If the electric spine happened then the Manchester to Bournemouth services could be operated by electric services and replace Voyagers.
- Building Curzon Street as a terminus station is completely idiotic; I’d have built some form of connection to the Camp Hill line and run Manchester/Newcastle/Leeds to Curzon street services beyond towards the Southwest and South Wales (assuming the the route would be electrified) to replace the existing CrossCountry services.

 

[greyman42]

I'd pick a lash up 6 car set of 158s over a Voyager any day of the week.

Last time i was on a 158 it did not appear to have any heating.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Voyager/Super Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer units are NOT pure DMUs.

Whatever the failings of the unit are not their own, but those of Virgin Rail and DfT (or SRA as it was at the time) who approved the "more short trains, less long trains" idea.

And I'm sure many things could be changed on them in the form of an actual overhaul/refurb... but ultimately the DfT don't want to spend the money.

Tell me how they operate without diesel then?

 

[samulih]

cancel culture run amok there, Mat..... anyhoo, interesting discussion...

 

[150249]

Currently on a Voyager, and it strikes me this is the closest I've seen to a great train since I used to commute on CIGs. Perfect window/seat alignment, a toilet at both ends, all tables, luggage space between seats. It's basically a modem mk2. Why do people dislike these? They're fantastic.

Sure, people will miss them but I don't think you can call them the best train... Class 444 for example have all the good qualities of a voyager and more.

 

[MattRat]

The Pendolino is basically a better Voyager. It can't access as much of the network, but that's the network's fault, not the train's.

 

[class 9]

To be fair the "not enough carriages" one can be resolved by either reforming into say 7 car sets (keeping the spare driving coaches for parts) or always running in pairs.

XCs senior management doesn't think there is overcrowding, they keep quoting lower passenger numbers in staff bulletins.
I'll believe that we're getting additional units, whether it's 221s or 222s, when or if it happens.

 

[QSK19]

Tell me how they operate without diesel then?

I think @cj_1985 meant that 22x are DEMU instead of DMU. The fuel is still diesel; but not the same technical setup as a pure DMU.

 

[Huntergreed]

The Pendolino is basically a better Voyager. It can't access as much of the network, but that's the network's fault, not the train's.

If window alignment and window size is what you look for, it’s a very significant downgrade

 

[londonmidland]

Have Voyagers always had loud, bass heavy exhausts, which can be heard both internally and externally, or is it an age/maintenance thing? It’s pretty noticeable if no one is talking, and quite literally fills the interior with noise.

Meridians don’t have this issue so I assume it’s a build design/spec thing with the way the exhaust pipes work/are located?

 

[irish_rail]

The Pendolino is basically a better Voyager. It can't access as much of the network, but that's the network's fault, not the train's.

Personally I detest the pendolino and find it far more nausea inducing and claustrophobic than a voyager. Its only advantage is it has more coaches. A 9 car voyager would be pretty decent actually lol.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Voyagers and Pendolinos are in my opinion, significant downgrades on previous rolling stock in terms of comfort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers and Pendolinos are in my opinion, significant downgrades on previous rolling stock in terms of comfort.

I'd take either over the junk that was the InterCity 70 seat. However, the 80x amply proves that they could have done a lot better.

 

[david1212]

The issues with Voyagers:

• Tight profile due to tilt, which has been disabled anyway.
• Not enough carriages
• Bogs that reek into the rest of the train
• Not enough carriages
• Terrible luggage racks not really capable of carrying anything people would call 'luggage' unless you're literally Alvin the chipmunk
• Not enough carriages
• Terrible bike racks that are probably only suitable for carrying a child's bike (providing it doesn't have stabilisers attached)
• Not enough carriages
• Seat pitch is awful (seats are way too thick and don't provide very good cushioning anyway)
• Not enough carriages
• Seat alignment is pretty terrible - there are many effectively windowless seats on XC.
• Not enough carriages

The thing that is so frustrating with XC is that capacity issues have been bad for about 15 years now and continue to get worse, with no attention from government on the issue.

Voyagers and Pendolinos are in my opinion, significant downgrades on previous rolling stock in terms of comfort.

I agree. Relatively IMO Pendolinos are better than Voyagers not least as while still the tilt profile they seem less claustrophobic. The first time I entered a Voyager it seemed like a train for a metre gauge system.
It is a poor reflection that overall the 8xx/IET is several steps backwards. I've only sampled GWR versions and appreciate later ones have some improvements.

Entering a MK3 in original layout for the first time certainly seemed overall a step forward. Most recently I travelled in the Chiltern LHCS and had no issue with the IC70. I can understand the safety issues with the airline layout IC70 though. The refurbishments by GWR while seats OK overall made the carriage claustrophic due to the combination of the very large and high back seat and cramming in as many as possible mostly in airline layout resulting in misalignment with windows.
While on entering an 8xx/IET it is obviously newer in comparison it is akin to the transition from a mid 1970's Cortina GL to whatever is the most basic Mondeo.

 

[Razorblades]

I'd take either over the junk that was the InterCity 70 seat. However, the 80x amply proves that they could have done a lot better.

Nothing wrong with an IC70 seat of either class, delivered to spec.

 

[Mat17]

cancel culture run amok there, Mat..... anyhoo, interesting discussion...

Nah not really. I had posted a reply but then realised someone else had already covered the point, and I didn't know how to delete my own post.

 

[cj_1985]

I think @cj_1985 meant that 22x are DEMU instead of DMU. The fuel is still diesel; but not the same technical setup as a pure DMU.

That's exactly what I meant

 

[NewClee153]

Voyagers are… better than Pendolinos, I guess. Unfortunately, they are massively letdown by engine volume, vibration, and capacity

 

[Pokelet]

Never had a problem myself with Voyagers, but I've not travelled regularly on them. Could do with a few more carriages per set and they'd be great.

Saying that, I didn't mind the 180's either and don't understand their bad reputation either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never had a problem myself with Voyagers, but I've not travelled regularly on them. Could do with a few more carriages per set and they'd be great.

Saying that, I didn't mind the 180's either and don't understand their bad reputation either.

Above the solebar they are pretty decent apart from the wobbly seats/tables and slightly iffy ride. Below it, they are unreliable. That's why they're disliked.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 220s and 221s are like they are because Arriva have let them go to ruin. They're just not looked after. Taking the shop out was imbecilic, too.

After the split, the difference between the VWC and XC 221s was night and day.

Capacity-wise, replacing an hourly 7-coach HST with a half-hourly 4/5-coach 220 was not a reduction. The issue was that passenger numbers rose with the improved service. Now, of course, we're back to an hourly service but with a 4/5-coach train. Well done Arriva.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Capacity-wise, replacing an hourly 7-coach HST with a half-hourly 4/5-coach 220 was not a reduction.

Actually, two 4-car 220s have slightly fewer seats than one 7-car HST in BR layout. Yes, it was that bad.

With such a service upgrade, they needed to double capacity, not reduce it. The HSTs were generally fairly busy, the only service that wasn't was the Birmingham Intl-Manchester short working.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think @cj_1985 meant that 22x are DEMU instead of DMU. The fuel is still diesel; but not the same technical setup as a pure DMU.

My point was that diesel should not be the only fuel for a train nowadays and he was being pedantic.

 

[Ken H]

Trouble is, short trains dont take spikes in demand
A fre years ago i got an early morning 4 coach voyager from Brum to Sheffield. It was a bit busy from to Derby then quite a few got in. But at Chesterfield there were loads and we suddenly were crush loaded. I got out at Sheffield as did many others. While i waited for my connection to Hull i looked in and there were spare seats again.
XC do many short hops like these. Catering for these hops is challenging for a long distance operator.

 

[Western Sunset]

I can still remember when I first travelled in a Mk2f - wonderful air-con, fantastic views from every seat, spacious table layout, IC70 seats nice and firm (rather than hard), quiet environment, no vibrations.
Where did we go wrong?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing wrong with an IC70 seat of either class, delivered to spec.

I can still remember when I first travelled in a Mk2f - wonderful air-con, fantastic views from every seat, spacious table layout, IC70 seats nice and firm (rather than hard), quiet environment, no vibrations.
Where did we go wrong?

Plenty wrong with them. Fixed armrests were a mind-numbingly stupid idea - aircraft had movable armrests pretty much since the first ones, most importantly, but they weren't supportive at all in my experience. And as airline seats the back had a habit of shattering into large, sharp pieces in an accident (which could be why almost all were replaced and the remaining ones are in facing layout?)

I guess the Class 397 is the modern-day Mk2, if tables are your thing. Personally I prefer the mixed 80x layout though it'd be nice if they matched the windows.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure the Voyager could be the best current train............................. if all others were removed from service and destroyed.

Awful trains on xc, merely poor trains on West Coast.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the 22x series of trains. There was something very wrong about the interior Virgin chose for the CrossCountry fleet but I always found the 222s very pleasant to travel on when they were introduced on the MML. The AWC Voyager carriage with tables is also, in my opinion, acceptable but could be better.

That is an oxymoron. voyager type trains are designed to be airliner style fuselages on railway wheels. The UK already suffers from restricted loading gauge compared to the rest of the world but to then build trains to an even smaller cross section due to following the ridiculously expensive notion of tilting trains, actually does the users a disservice. When you cannot place a decent sized bag in the overhead luggage racks then it is the design of the train that is wrong